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The key to victory [Crucible support thread]


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#251
Kurremurre

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I think there's a major difference between not minding something objecitvely bad exists, and believing something objectively bad can be good. 

A DEM is a flaw, that's objective. You may not mind the flaw for various reasons, but it's still a flaw. DEM's are inherently bad, you can't have a 'good' one. 


I agree with the first sentence, but you haven't shown why DEMs would be objectively bad.


I don't have to. That's not meant as a snarky point, I just don't. That's meaning of the term, it's something that is bad.


I know what "objectively bad" means, but saying that something is objectively bad without showing why makes it an arbitrary statement.

If the reason is that it's confusing or displeasing, then it's dependent
on how the reader/viewer receives it - which would make it subjective,
no?


That's part of the reason. More importantly though, they're not supported by the narrative, they're out of place, they're contrived. 

The Catalyst is a DEM because the narrative does not support its inclusion, it appears out of nowhere to solve an impossible situation.


Here you actually do get us closer to seeing why DEMs are objectively bad :P If they're bad because they're not supported by the narrative, then DEMs are by definition bad. (This, of course, assumes that there is something objectively bad about including elements that aren't supported by the narrative in a story.)

#252
Seival

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freler31 wrote...

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?


I find all predictable endings boring, and I think they just ruin the entire story. What about you? Do you like the endings which you knew from the beginning even without playing a game?

#253
M Hedonist

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Seival wrote...

freler31 wrote...

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?


I find all predictable endings boring, and I think they just ruin the entire story. What about you? Do you like the endings which you knew from the beginning even without playing a game?

Human beings are not predictable. You shouldn't need a cold, unfeeling ghost child in your story to have an interesting ending.

#254
Anti-killer

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The Key to victory would be to simply call in the Imperium of man

#255
Grimwick

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Seival wrote...

freler31 wrote...

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?


I find all predictable endings boring, and I think they just ruin the entire story. What about you? Do you like the endings which you knew from the beginning even without playing a game?


Hahahahahaha. So, because ME3 isn't predictable it's a good ending?

Good one.

#256
Seival

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Grimwick wrote...

Seival wrote...

freler31 wrote...

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?


I find all predictable endings boring, and I think they just ruin the entire story. What about you? Do you like the endings which you knew from the beginning even without playing a game?


Hahahahahaha. So, because ME3 isn't predictable it's a good ending?

Good one.


Unpredictable ending is always more exciting than a predictable one. But unpredictable ending is only one of the things which make ME Trilogy Ending really great.

I really like the concepts of the ending's options and the way in which those options were presented. The ending really stuns you. And forces you to think.

Modifié par Seival, 21 juin 2012 - 10:25 .


#257
iHorizons

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The crucible is space magic

#258
3DandBeyond

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iHorizons wrote...

The crucible is space magic


The crucible is the Swiss Army Knife in the sky.  It's a Space Magic MacGuffin.  From now on, not only will all games need a MacGuffin-that is just not enough.  The new and improved MacGuffin must totally suspend all reality in saving everyone or saving no one-who cares, it's just a game.  We, the players require any ending from here on out (since they no longer need to make any sense) be totally illogical, lack comprehension, cohesion, context, and emotion-oh and fun, we don't play games to have fun. 

Instead, all that is required is for some Space Magic MacGuffin to fly in and save the day (or to create some ambiguous meaningless conclusion that features no epilogue, because really how can you explain something ambigous and meaningless).

I feel that to receive anything less in a game is insulting by implying we might actually prefer to use our brain cells in a videogame.  We don't want that.  We prefer to not understand something we understand but that makes your brain play twister in trying to understand it, and we prefer to not understand things that actually cause this reaction-"this hurts us."  In fact, from now on make games with endings we don't want to understand because their inanity is "smartness".

And in keeping with a tradition that ME3 has now institutionalized, jam a bunch of endings from all different games into one ending, introduce Mr. SMM (Space Magic MacGuffin, First class) and then roll the "buy some DLC" screen.  Heck, drop the DLC screen and just insert a button that says, "to stop the game, pay here".  Why insult us with further DLC that might only cheapen the appearance of Mr. SMM?  He's so lovable as is.

Looking forward to the future of nonsensical, mind-numbing gaming forever after to be referred to as "art".

#259
D24O

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Seival wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Seival wrote...

freler31 wrote...

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?


I find all predictable endings boring, and I think they just ruin the entire story. What about you? Do you like the endings which you knew from the beginning even without playing a game?


Hahahahahaha. So, because ME3 isn't predictable it's a good ending?

Good one.


Unpredictable ending is always more exciting than a predictable one. But unpredictable ending is only one of the things which make ME Trilogy Ending really great.

I really like the concepts of the ending's options and the way in which those options were presented. The ending really stuns you. And forces you to think.

I have to disagree. The poor execution of the catalyst sequence is at the crux of why I dislike it. It's stylistically inconsistent with the rest of the games, brings to the fore a theme and conflict that had been addressed on Rannoch, and replaces them with the conflict of the rest of the trilogy. Not good IMO. 

#260
freler31

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Seival wrote...

freler31 wrote...

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?


I find all predictable endings boring, and I think they just ruin the entire story. What about you? Do you like the endings which you knew from the beginning even without playing a game?


Either you're misunderstanding my question or I wasn't clear. I'm asking why you are defending the concept of a Deus Ex Machina when the definition of the term includes the words "abrupt", which is usually a negative term, and "contrived", which is always a negative term. 

Unless you disagree with that definition and want to tell us your own, you therefore have to accept that by definition Deus Ex Machinas are bad.

#261
3DandBeyond

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Seival wrote...

Unpredictable ending is always more exciting than a predictable one. But unpredictable ending is only one of the things which make ME Trilogy Ending really great.

I really like the concepts of the ending's options and the way in which those options were presented. The ending really stuns you. And forces you to think.


No it forces you to wish you could stop thinking.  It is not unpredictable-it is copied from at least 4 different things.  Games, movies and the like.  It doesn't stun you, it shoves you off a cliff and says it doesn't care about any choices or feelings you had in the game at all.

You have to be stupid to think it's intelligent.  That's the problem with it.  I can understand some people just going for the look of it, but please don't even try to sell me on the "logic" or intellectual aspect of it.  The previous things it "borrows" from did it better and drew from reasons within their own stories.  ME3 has a compilation ending that doesn't fit ME because it is from other stories.  Deus ex (2000) videogame--3 choices.  Babylon 5--conflict between the Vorlon and Shadows, Order and Chaos.  Glowing avatars.  And more-the Matrix.

This ending is not the ending of ME at all, because it disregards, contradicts, and ignores many other things said repeatedly throughout the 3 games and even within ME3 itself.

The star kid says he's saving people by ascending them.  Sovereign and Harbinger said the goal is destruction of organics-Sovereign also does want Synthesis--strike one for that as a "choice".

The star kid says or wants Shepard to believe that his solution of the destruction of advanced organics makes sense--Shepard is supposed to believe that the deaths of trillions who are alive in the present -- killed by reapers -- is better than some possible future deaths by some possible future possibly created possible synthetic beings that will possibly, maybe try to rebel against their creators and maybe try to kill them and those future creators will maybe possibly not be able to stop their created synthetics.  Preposterous.  Mainly, people that are alive now (Shepard being one of them) are not going to think that makes sense-they aren't going to say, "yippee, kill me now so some future even that may not ever even happen, won't happen and someone at some unknown point in the future who might be killed, won't be killed".  Call me stupid, but I don't mind sacrificing something, but don't tell me I need to be killed today in order to save someone who might die in the future.

The star kid also needed to find a new way to do things-that's what Harbinger said, and voila, he found it with the Crucible and Shepard.  So, it's incredibly illogical and stupid to think Shepard would think the Crucible offers any good choice with good consequences.  And, guess what, it doesn't.  It offers equally stupid, illogical choices that doom the galaxy (if the devs hadn't decided to forget what the game says), subvert free will, cause genocide, require suicide (for no reason other than because Shepard must die), cause slavery, and require capitulation.  The choices also require Shepard to remove his/her brain and stomp on it, because it's no longer necessary.  It stopped being used once Shepard got hit by Harbinger's beam.

Yeah, it was unpredictable, because no one that played ME1, 2, and 3 could have predicted that anyone would create such an abomination composed of other peoples' visions for stories they wrote, claim it was their original artistic vision, and the assert that it's "smart".  It is so far from smart it isn't funny.  And to assert that it is in any way intellectual or thoughty, is insulting.  I know smart when I read it.

The real discussion(s) that could be had on this site is one of the issues I find most sad in all of this.  The whole series is now seen through the prism of the ending from hell.  It would be much more fun to discuss all the other things about the series, but all roads lead to the star kid and his stupidity, and the feeling that nothing in these games mattered, because they didn't.

#262
3DandBeyond

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freler31 wrote...

Seival wrote...

freler31 wrote...

Exactly. So what is it about "suddenly and abruptly" and "contrived and unexpected" that you think is good?


I find all predictable endings boring, and I think they just ruin the entire story. What about you? Do you like the endings which you knew from the beginning even without playing a game?


Either you're misunderstanding my question or I wasn't clear. I'm asking why you are defending the concept of a Deus Ex Machina when the definition of the term includes the words "abrupt", which is usually a negative term, and "contrived", which is always a negative term. 

Unless you disagree with that definition and want to tell us your own, you therefore have to accept that by definition Deus Ex Machinas are bad.


The DEM ending is one of the most often used in writing and therefore the most often rejected by publishing houses.  They are contrived and considered lazy.

Just as the inclusion of a MacGuffin is contrived and lazy.

Thoughtful endings must deal with the story at hand and involve concepts within the story.  Creating some trumped up, last minute "saviour" or some unexplained "Holy Grail" is done to avoid creating more complex ways to deal with problems.  It's done because it's harder to create believable ways in which mere mortals do incredible things.

But, these are also extremely old and worn tactics.  The Wizard of Oz (movie) had a Deus ex theme itself, but then the true solution popped up lurking inside Dorothy all along. She had been searching for a MacGuffin, who was a kind of backwards Deus ex, not a god from a machine, but a human behind the machine seen as a god.

But, The Wizard of Oz could be forgiven for its hint at a Deus ex, because it was written a long time ago, and because it was a twist and not a straight up example.  Instead of having some god come out and save the day, Dorothy found a frail human with a human solution (the balloon), but then was shown the power within herself.

That was unpredicable and actually could have been used to a better purpose in ME3.  What if, the Crucible was nothing but a toy for the star kid and Shepard revealed that, but in that same moment Shepard saw that people had the power all along within themselves and could succeed.  This is actually what is shown in the Babylon 5 chaos and order conflict ending.  And it was done well.  They rejected this conflict and found something within themselves and each other, something that would lead them to victory on their terms and not the terms of others.



#263
Headcount

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The Crucible should have been a Prothean built weapon and none of this various races adding to it nonsense. The Protheans couldn't finish it but hid away for us to find later on, making part of the game a race to find it.

When its found and connects to the Citadel, Shepard and his ENTIRE crew has to stand and defend the control station while it powers up to fire. There, Shepard has to decide who to save as your holding action nearly becomes Custer's Last Stand as hordes of husks overwhelms your defences.

#264
3DandBeyond

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Headcount wrote...


The Crucible should have been a Prothean built weapon and none of this various races adding to it nonsense. The Protheans couldn't finish it but hid away for us to find later on, making part of the game a race to find it.

When its found and connects to the Citadel, Shepard and his ENTIRE crew has to stand and defend the control station while it powers up to fire. There, Shepard has to decide who to save as your holding action nearly becomes Custer's Last Stand as hordes of husks overwhelms your defences.


Way better than what we got.  The introduction of other races helping to create the crucible plans leaves a wide open door as to who really was behind it.  It's not something I'd trust seeing as the reapers should have had ample opportunity to destroy the plans, and that they consistently seeded the galaxy with tech in order to get life to advance along a specified path.  Then, after the Suicide mission, the Crucible plans conveniently show up and no one knows what it will do, but it seems like a weapon, but it's not complete, and it needs another part to work (the Catalyst), but they don't know what that is or does.  Uh, yeah let's run and make that.

#265
Seival

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EC is near. And it will be nice if EC will have more explanations about the Crucible. I really hope my theory about the device was correct :)

#266
cogsandcurls

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I love how whenever one of these support threads inexplicably shoots back to the front page I go "Who on earth is still beating that dead horse?" and it's ALWAYS Seival, necroing his/her own threads repeatedly.

#267
M Hedonist

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cogsandcurls wrote...

I love how whenever one of these support threads inexplicably shoots back to the front page I go "Who on earth is still beating that dead horse?" and it's ALWAYS Seival, necroing his/her own threads repeatedly.

He even resurrected his Normandy crash scene thread after his theory has clearly been disproven by that one screenshot from the EC.
At this point it can't even get any more obvious he's just doing all of this for the attention.

#268
Seival

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Sauruz wrote...

cogsandcurls wrote...

I love how whenever one of these support threads inexplicably shoots back to the front page I go "Who on earth is still beating that dead horse?" and it's ALWAYS Seival, necroing his/her own threads repeatedly.

He even resurrected his Normandy crash scene thread after his theory has clearly been disproven by that one screenshot from the EC.
At this point it can't even get any more obvious he's just doing all of this for the attention.


First of all, that screenshot disproves nothing.

...Well, and don't worry about all those threads you don't like. I'll not continue to bump them after EC. I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

#269
M Hedonist

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Seival wrote...

First of all, that screenshot disproves nothing.

It disproves everything.

...Well, and don't worry about all those threads you don't like. I'll not continue to bump them after EC.

Of course you will. You've been ignoring all evidence and you'll keep ignoring all evidence.

I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

Is this supposed to be a threat?

#270
Seival

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Sauruz wrote...


I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

Is this supposed to be a threat?


No, It's just a fact. Nothing more.

#271
M Hedonist

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Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...


I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

Is this supposed to be a threat?


No, It's just a fact. Nothing more.

I think you meant to say "it's actually a warning".

#272
sAxMoNkI

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Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...


I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

Is this supposed to be a threat?


No, It's just a fact. Nothing more.

I think you meant to say "it's actually a warning".


I just love the irony of the man who wants to start every concievable ending support thread doesn't understand how people can be power hungry...

#273
Seival

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Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...



I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

Is this supposed to be a threat?


No, It's just a fact. Nothing more.

I think you meant to say "it's actually a warning".


You are wrong. I just want to support BioWare, because I love ME Trilogy. And I love how BioWare doing their job.

#274
M Hedonist

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Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...



I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

Is this supposed to be a threat?


No, It's just a fact. Nothing more.

I think you meant to say "it's actually a warning".


You are wrong. I just want to support BioWare, because I love ME Trilogy. And I love how BioWare doing their job.

You can similarly justify choosing the Synthesis ending.
"I just want to support life, because I love technology. And I love how Reapers doing their job."
Doesn't mean you're not a mad villain for doing that.

#275
Seival

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Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...




I'll create the ultimate ending support thread instead.

Is this supposed to be a threat?


No, It's just a fact. Nothing more.

I think you meant to say "it's actually a warning".


You are wrong. I just want to support BioWare, because I love ME Trilogy. And I love how BioWare doing their job.

You can similarly justify choosing the Synthesis ending.
"I just want to support life, because I love technology. And I love how Reapers doing their job."
Doesn't mean you're not a mad villain for doing that.


No I can't. I didn't even have such thoughts. But you had... Which is not surprising actually.