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The key to victory [Crucible support thread]


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#51
Seival

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Mobius-Silent wrote...

Seival wrote...
First of all, Asari mental abilities are actually biotic abilities (all Asari are natural biotics, they didn't have to develop biotic abilities like humans). Shepard is not an Asari, but Shepard can use Dominate in ME2... So, Dominate is actually a biotic ability that can be learned and trained by any biotic.


Shepard can get all sorts of bonus abilities, however those are a game mechanic not a part of the world. Or are we to believe that it's impossible for an engineer to use a sniper rifle until then find a magic weapons cach on the collector ship? Or that you couldn't detonate stasis in ME2, or that warp doesn't activate a biotic detonation suddenly in ME3.

Or that Shepard was suddenly trained to roll 2186CE

The "bonus" ability is an OOC gameplay element and shouldn't be considered in matters of lore.


I prefer to take Shepard's biotic talents as a part of story, not just a "gameplay element". Shepard is multitalented person. That's what makes her so special...

...And with 45km long biotic amp even a 5-years-old kid will be a "biotic god".

...And please don't take the previous phrase as some kind of clue about the Catalist. I didn't mean anything like that, and most people prefer to take everything too literally here.

#52
Jenonax

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What in the holy hell is all this ****?  No, no, no, no, no!  NO!  No, does not compute, does not compute.

The Crucible is the worst, the absolute worst!  Nothing about it makes sense!  The only logical explanation of its origins is that its Reaper designed and even then it makes no sense.

The Crucible exudes this field of utter stupid and replaces all the intelligent characters with morons!  How can anyone like this crap?!  WHY

I have declared war on this abomination!  May it burn in the many fires of storytelling hell along with Jar Jar Binks and later versions of Sonic the Hedghog!

OP, I could take the Normandy thread, and the Stagazer thread but this, this is the worst.  Don't make me go dig out my Crucible rant reasonable questions.

:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

#53
Mobius-Silent

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Regardless, I think the idea that the Citadel/Crucible combo is a biotic amp is just wrong-headed.

_All_ notable tech in Mass Effect uses Mass Effect fields.

Relays, FTL, Weapons, Vehicles, Omni-tools, etc

Mass Effect fields operated directly by the electrical current in the brain through Eezo deposits also in the brain is referred to as Biotics. Hence Mass Effect field manipulation is a superset that includes Biotics.

The Crucible/Citadel can manipulate Mass Effect fields without an organic brain driving them,hence their effect are not Biotics

#54
Seival

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Mobius-Silent wrote...

Regardless, I think the idea that the Citadel/Crucible combo is a biotic amp is just wrong-headed.

_All_ notable tech in Mass Effect uses Mass Effect fields.

Relays, FTL, Weapons, Vehicles, Omni-tools, etc

Mass Effect fields operated directly by the electrical current in the brain through Eezo deposits also in the brain is referred to as Biotics. Hence Mass Effect field manipulation is a superset that includes Biotics.

The Crucible/Citadel can manipulate Mass Effect fields without an organic brain driving them,hence their effect are not Biotics


Actually, the Crucible+Citadel can't do anything like those explosions only by themselves...

Admiral Hackett: ...Crucilible isn't firing, it must be something on your side.
Shepard: ... I'm not sure how to...

And we both know what happened next. This make me believe that Crucible was designed to turn the Citadel and Mass Relays Network into a massive biotic amplifier.

#55
Grimwick

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Hooray, we have moved on to supporting incredibly poor writing and plot devices.

Makes me feel like watching Contact again...

#56
Seival

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Grimwick wrote...

Hooray, we have moved on to supporting incredibly poor writing and plot devices.

Makes me feel like watching Contact again...


Now, when I've finally analized some particular parts of the endings and the endings in general, I strongly believe that the writing was great...

...But let's stay on the Crucible topic please :)

#57
filetemo

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I do not have any problem with the crucible as a plot device, in fact I like it.

My endings problem is:
control
synthesis
joker fleeing

that's it.

#58
Jamie9

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I've got to hand it to you Seival. You know how to get people talking. You have 4 threads constantly on the front page. I'm pretty sure BioWare has noticed you!

Like a lot of things in ME3, the concept itself isn't broken, the execution was just poor. The Crucible's construction should have been covered a little bit more.

#59
Mobius-Silent

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Seival wrote...


Actually, the Crucible+Citadel can't do anything like those explosions only by themselves...

Admiral Hackett: ...Crucilible isn't firing, it must be something on your side.
Shepard: ... I'm not sure how to...

And we both know what happened next. This make me believe that Crucible was designed to turn the Citadel and Mass Relays Network into a massive biotic amplifier.


The Crucible is generating power before Shepard does anything, the Citadel is a massive mass relay without an organic mind in control.

They both have Eezo cores that are not embedded in an organic brain, hence the effects are no more Biotic than when a human operates a mass relay

From the Codex:

Biotics manipulate mass effect fields using dozens of element zero nodules within their nervous system that react to electric stimuli from the brain. Amplifiers allow biotics to synchronize the nodules so they can form fields large and strong enough for practical use. Amplifiers can improve a specific discipline or talent.

The Crucible and Citadel have their own Eezo cores hence the effect is not-biotic, for it to be Biotic the Ezo needs to be in the brain of the user

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 10 juin 2012 - 12:41 .


#60
Medievalist

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Honestly, I wouldn't spend my time on explanations regarding the technical details/usefulness/purpose of the Crucible, sorry OP. Everything you or any of us might come up with, is merely academical, because ME3's plot simply doesn't deliver enough details.

In fact, the first thing that came to my mind when I played ME3 and they started talking about some giant ancient super-weapon was: "MacGuffin"
I won't deliver the explanation here, just look it up and you'll find this term quite fitting.

The Crucible serves as a plot device (and a very weak one), and was not invented to be anything else. It simply drives the story forward and the player towards the ending(s). Once the player is there, the Crucible has fulfilled its mission, is abandoned and literally left to be dispersed in space.

#61
Grimwick

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Medievalist wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't spend my time on explanations regarding the technical details/usefulness/purpose of the Crucible, sorry OP. Everything you or any of us might come up with, is merely academical, because ME3's plot simply doesn't deliver enough details.

In fact, the first thing that came to my mind when I played ME3 and they started talking about some giant ancient super-weapon was: "MacGuffin"
I won't deliver the explanation here, just look it up and you'll find this term quite fitting.


I wouldn't define the crucible as a Macguffin at all.

DEM? Yes. MacGuffin? No.

#62
Joccaren

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I do not support Deus Ex Machina, Diabolous Ex Machina or Magic Bullets, so I will not support the Crucible.

A proper solution, rather than, Turian Fingerquotes "Space Magic", would have been infinitely better.

#63
Medievalist

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Grimwick wrote...

Medievalist wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't spend my time on explanations regarding the technical details/usefulness/purpose of the Crucible, sorry OP. Everything you or any of us might come up with, is merely academical, because ME3's plot simply doesn't deliver enough details.

In fact, the first thing that came to my mind when I played ME3 and they started talking about some giant ancient super-weapon was: "MacGuffin"
I won't deliver the explanation here, just look it up and you'll find this term quite fitting.


I wouldn't define the crucible as a Macguffin at all.

DEM? Yes. MacGuffin? No.


Well, the definition is more or less the following:

"Mac·Guf·fin (noun): an object,
event, or character in a film or story that serves to set and keep
the plot in motion despite usually lacking intrinsic importance"


I think it is exactly that, while the Catalyst/Starchild is a literally a personification of a "Deus ex machina".

The Crucible is not involved at all in any of Shepard's missions. It is always present in the background, because Shepard and we as the player know that the Crucible's construction is the only chance of destroying the Reapers. We don't know how it works or if it works at all, but we are aware of its importance.
So Shepard sets off on a mission to rally the free peoples of the galaxy, just to ensure that the Crucible will be completed and used.

From time to time we get some info about the progress of the Crucible's construction and how it serves as a unifiying experience (eg. Rachni engineers working with humans, Turians etc.) but that's it.

Of course, the counterargument could be: "Shepard would try to unite the different races anyway, also in the absence of something like the Crucible."
Sure thing, but you'd come along several problems as a writer, because Shepard would have difficulties with conveying a feeling of "the greater good" to the other races. As you can encounter as a player, it is a challenge to get them to find common ground even WITH the Crucible.
It is a very important item WITHIN the story (ie. to Shepard and everyone in the ME universe) although it is not important from OUR POINT OF VIEW, because we don't have much to do with the Crucible until the very end.

The Crucible, as an ancient, mysterious super-weapon is the unifying momentum in ME3 and the only source of real hope to the sapient races of the galaxy for ever destroying the Reapers, while of no real value to the player. And that's all we know about it, nothing more. So it's a MacGuffin. QED

PS. I know these arguments are not waterproof... I guess, nothing is, in the theoretical realms of Bioware's dark plot holes and space magic...

#64
JShepppp

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I look at the Crucible as a symbolic manifestation of organic defiance to the Reapers over hundreds of millions of years. It allows me to see it as epic.

#65
Grimwick

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Medievalist wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Medievalist wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't spend my time on explanations regarding the technical details/usefulness/purpose of the Crucible, sorry OP. Everything you or any of us might come up with, is merely academical, because ME3's plot simply doesn't deliver enough details.

In fact, the first thing that came to my mind when I played ME3 and they started talking about some giant ancient super-weapon was: "MacGuffin"
I won't deliver the explanation here, just look it up and you'll find this term quite fitting.


I wouldn't define the crucible as a Macguffin at all.

DEM? Yes. MacGuffin? No.


Well, the definition is more or less the following:

"Mac·Guf·fin (noun): an object,
event, or character in a film or story that serves to set and keep
the plot in motion despite usually lacking intrinsic importance"


I think it is exactly that, while the Catalyst/Starchild is a literally a personification of a "Deus ex machina".

The Crucible is not involved at all in any of Shepard's missions. It is always present in the background, because Shepard and we as the player know that the Crucible's construction is the only chance of destroying the Reapers. We don't know how it works or if it works at all, but we are aware of its importance.
So Shepard sets off on a mission to rally the free peoples of the galaxy, just to ensure that the Crucible will be completed and used.

From time to time we get some info about the progress of the Crucible's construction and how it serves as a unifiying experience (eg. Rachni engineers working with humans, Turians etc.) but that's it.

It is a very important item WITHIN the story (ie. to Shepard and everyone in the ME universe) although it is not important from OUR POINT OF VIEW, because we don't have much to do with the Crucible until the very end.

The Crucible, as an ancient, mysterious super-weapon is the unifying momentum in ME3 and the only source of real hope to the sapient races of the galaxy for ever destroying the Reapers, while of no real value to the player. And that's all we know about it, nothing more. So it's a MacGuffin. QED

PS. I know these arguments are not waterproof... I guess, nothing is, in the theoretical realms of Bioware's dark plot holes and space magic...


You said it yourself - a macguffin lacks intrinsic importance.

It's not a true macguffin because it is the sole solution and therefore is of incredible importance. And you say it isn't important from our point of view? I disagree entirely, there are many many times in which we discuss/are told about/reminded of the crucible and how important the mission is to build it. Whether or not it is the 'driving force' of the plot is another matter too. 

You could equally argue that the driving force of the plot is Shepard, or the Reapers, or Cerberus. It isn't necessarily the Crucible because not all missions are related to it. Look at the Tuchanka missions - the motives being to gather a fleet to rescue earth. Or maybe the Rannoch missions? 

A true MacGuffin is one such as the briefcase in pulp fiction, something small and insignificant but is seen as something important and it provides a reason for the events. ME doesn't really have something like this at all.

#66
Seival

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Mobius-Silent wrote...

Seival wrote...


Actually, the Crucible+Citadel can't do anything like those explosions only by themselves...

Admiral Hackett: ...Crucilible isn't firing, it must be something on your side.
Shepard: ... I'm not sure how to...

And we both know what happened next. This make me believe that Crucible was designed to turn the Citadel and Mass Relays Network into a massive biotic amplifier.


The Crucible is generating power before Shepard does anything, the Citadel is a massive mass relay without an organic mind in control.

They both have Eezo cores that are not embedded in an organic brain, hence the effects are no more Biotic than when a human operates a mass relay

From the Codex:

Biotics manipulate mass effect fields using dozens of element zero nodules within their nervous system that react to electric stimuli from the brain. Amplifiers allow biotics to synchronize the nodules so they can form fields large and strong enough for practical use. Amplifiers can improve a specific discipline or talent.

The Crucible and Citadel have their own Eezo cores hence the effect is not-biotic, for it to be Biotic the Ezo needs to be in the brain of the user


All Reaper tech is half-organic remember? And biotic-amps are cybernetic devices. Shepard just got 45km-long external amp instead of 4,5sm-long internal one...

...Finally, the explosion starts only after Shepard activates the process, not before.

#67
Seival

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Jamie9 wrote...

I've got to hand it to you Seival. You know how to get people talking. You have 4 threads constantly on the front page. I'm pretty sure BioWare has noticed you!

Like a lot of things in ME3, the concept itself isn't broken, the execution was just poor. The Crucible's construction should have been covered a little bit more.


Maybe they just reserved Crucible's explanations for some future games in ME Universe? :)

#68
LucasShark

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The curcible is al illogical crap-fest of writing contrivance, produced out of the desperation, it deserves nothing but scorn and derision.

#69
Mobius-Silent

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Seival wrote...

All Reaper tech is half-organic remember? And biotic-amps are cybernetic devices. Shepard just got 45km-long external amp instead of 4,5sm-long internal one...

...Finally, the explosion starts only after Shepard activates the process, not before.


"All reaper tech is half organic" This is just patently wrong. There is a definitelike between the implants and the organic bits. 

#70
The Angry One

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Seival wrote...

Maybe they just reserved Crucible's explanations for some future games in ME Universe? :)


You realise that would be a terrible thing to do?

I'm just going to ask.. did Putin outlaw good literary techniques? Is that why you talk like this?

#71
Seival

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Mobius-Silent wrote...

Seival wrote...

All Reaper tech is half-organic remember? And biotic-amps are cybernetic devices. Shepard just got 45km-long external amp instead of 4,5sm-long internal one...

...Finally, the explosion starts only after Shepard activates the process, not before.


"All reaper tech is half organic" This is just patently wrong. There is a definitelike between the implants and the organic bits. 


The Citadel and Mass Relays are half-organic constructs, just like any Reaper ship. So I think it was very clever to make some device that can be integrated into Citadel+Relays system, and convert the entire system into an amp.

I don't think the system has any real "control rods", "glass tubes", or "pillars of light" located on the station's sheathing. Shepard was just shown something familiar, but the real mechanic was a "mind intergation". Shepard initiates Control, Destroy or Synthesis with power of her will... That's how I see it.

#72
The Night Mammoth

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Seival wrote...

The Citadel and Mass Relays are half-organic constructs, just like any Reaper ship.


That's complete conjecture, so I'm not going to read anything else. 

#73
The Angry One

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Seival wrote...


The Citadel and Mass Relays are half-organic constructs, just like any Reaper ship. So I think it was very clever to make some device that can be integrated into Citadel+Relays system, and convert the entire system into an amp.


Evidence please.

#74
Seival

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Citadel and Mass Relays are half-organic constructs, just like any Reaper ship.


That's complete conjecture, so I'm not going to read anything else


Then you will miss something important...

#75
The Night Mammoth

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Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Citadel and Mass Relays are half-organic constructs, just like any Reaper ship.


That's complete conjecture, so I'm not going to read anything else


Then you will miss something important...


No I don't think I will. When the post starts with asinine conjecture as the basis, I'm not going to read on. 

You know what's funny though? 

No attempt was made to prove me wrong. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 10 juin 2012 - 08:09 .