277 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Up until that point"

The Crucible solved that problem, and you've known about it and were trying to get it prepared the entire game.

Solution to a seemingly difficult problem =/= DEM.

You're assuming the problem I'm talking about is defeating the Reapers. 

It's not, so, yeah, well done. 

I'm talking about not knowing what the f*ck the Crucible actually does, or what its functions mean. 

The Catalyst promptly steps in to explain that, however poorly a job it does. Previously, we didn't know it existed, and didn't expect anything like it to either, and appearing in the game causes further problems in the narrative, thus it is an unsupported and nonsensical expository tool meant to solve several problems. 

So it's a DEM. 

[MegaSovereign]

It's poorly explained throughout the game. The codex says something about exploiting the mass relay system so that distance isn't a factor.

Also the description of the Crucible war assets help give us some insight to the science behind it.

Knowing what the Crucible does never really was a central conflict to the storyline.

EDIT:

Re-reading what you said....man that's just ****ing stupid.

So anything or anyone that gives you insight to how the Crucible works is a DEM? Does that make the Prothean VI a DEM too? <_<

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 11 juin 2012 - 04:03 .

[Carlthestrange]

The Crucible turned out to be a Rainbow machine.

[The Night Mammoth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

It's poorly explained throughout the game. The codex says something about exploiting the mass relay system so that distance isn't a factor.

Also the description of the Crucible war assets help give us some insight to the science behind it.

Knowing what the Crucible does never really was a central conflict to the storyline.

It's a major problem in the story, that the Catalyst appears in order to solve. 

Re-reading what you said....man that's just ****ing stupid.

So anything or anyone that gives you insight to how the Crucible works is a DEM? Does that make the Prothean VI a DEM too? <_<

No, ******, wow, that's an amazing strawman. 

Something that appears to solve an evident problem at the end of the narrative when its existence is important but unsupported by the story is a DEM. 

That's the Catalyst. It fills all the criteria. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 11 juin 2012 - 04:13 .

[MegaSovereign]

First off, insulting me doesn't improve your argument. In fact it makes you lose credibility.

Second, that's NOT what a DEM is.

This is the definition of a DEM:

deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Nevermind the fact that the Catalyst was actually foreshadowed pretty clearly on Thessia...How is not knowing the Crucible's workings an "unsolvable problem?" The only thing close to an "unsolvable problem" in the Mass Effect series is the Reaper threat.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 11 juin 2012 - 04:21 .

[The Night Mammoth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

First off, insulting me doesn't improve your argument. In fact it makes you lose credibility.

Then you're a hypocrite. 

Second, that's NOT what a DEM is.

Well, it is, there are many, and the one you just quoted is the wikipedia one. I stated the one I was taught in school. 

This is the definition of a DEM:

deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

How is not knowing the Crucible's workings an "unsolvable problem?"

The Crucible not working. Us not knowing what the Crucible does. Us not knowing what the Crucible's functions mean or do. 

The only thing close to an "unsolvable problem" in the Mass Effect series is the Reaper threat.

Which is why the Crucible is a strange mix of a Maguffin and a DEM. 

[MegaSovereign]

Then you're a hypocrite.

Point me to where I insulted you.

Well, it is, there are many, and the one you just quoted is the wikipedia one. I stated the one I was taught in school.

Here's another definition taken from World English Dictionary:

a god introduced into a play to resolve the plot

Not knowing what the Crucible does was NEVER a central conflict of the plot.

The Crucible not working. Us not knowing what the Crucible does. Us not knowing what the Crucible's functions mean or do

That doesn't make it an "unsolvable problem." On some other thread I was just going on about how Bioware could have had some scientists who were working on the Crucible explain some of the science behind it.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 11 juin 2012 - 04:29 .

[M Hedonist]

In a way, the Catalyst giving the Citadel the power to turn every living being into a cyborg is a DEM. Nothing ever foreshadowed it could do that. It suddenly gained a new ability.
It's all arguable because Bioware decided to make their DEM needlessly convoluted. Maybe they attempted to make it look less like a DEM. The whole Catalyst - Citadel thing is pretty stupid no matter what it is.

[MegaSovereign]

Synthesis is not a DEM.

It's just stupid as hell.

[The Night Mammoth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Point me to where I insulted you.

MegaSovereign wrote...

Re-reading what you said....man that's just ****ing stupid.

I didn't feel insulted. The petty words of an anonymous internet forum poster are beneath my notice.

Well, it is, there are many, and the one you just quoted is the wikipedia one. I stated the one I was taught in school.

Here's another definition taken from World English Dictionary:

a god introduced into a play to resolve the plot

Not knowing what the Crucible does was NEVER a central conflict of the plot.

It was an important part of the narrative. Activating the Crucible was also a key component. The Catalyst solves both problems.

The Crucible not working. Us not knowing what the Crucible does. Us not knowing what the Crucible's functions mean or do

That doesn't make it an "unsolvable problem." On some other thread I was just going on about how Bioware could have had some scientists who were working on the Crucible explain some of the science behind it.

Could have, but didn't. At the 11th hour all three are unsolvable, and the Catalyst appears to solve them.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 11 juin 2012 - 04:36 .

[M Hedonist]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Synthesis is not a DEM.

It's just stupid as hell.

Well, according to the Catalyst, it resolves the Organic - Synthetic conflict we're supposed to care about.
The ending's so weird and convoluted, nobody even really knows what we're supposed to feel like. From a literally perspective, it seems we're supposed to get the feeling of revelation. But almost nobody actually felt that way. And I still like to believe that we're supposed to feel like something's wrong and some kind of big plot twist is going to come in the EC.
Nobody can give a definite answer on this other than the lead writers.
Did they actually think people would care about the Organic -Synthetic conflict? Did they think that was the main theme of the series?

[MegaSovereign]

@The Night Mammoth.

It's not an unsolvable problem...

That's really the bottom line. Not to mention the Catalyst was actually foreshadowed.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 11 juin 2012 - 04:42 .

[MegaSovereign]

Sauruz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Synthesis is not a DEM.

It's just stupid as hell.

Well, according to the Catalyst, it resolves the Organic - Synthetic conflict we're supposed to care about.
The ending's so weird and convoluted, nobody even really knows what we're supposed to feel like. From a literally perspective, it seems we're supposed to get the feeling of revelation. But almost nobody actually felt that way. And I still like to believe that we're supposed to feel like something's wrong and some kind of big plot twist is going to come in the EC.
Nobody can give a definite answer on this other than the lead writers.
Did they actually think people would care about the Organic -Synthetic conflict? Did they think that was the main theme of the series?

TBH I never understood how synthesis actually solves tech singularity.

[The Night Mammoth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

It's not an unsolvable problem...

That's really the bottom line.

It was, at that point. 

Not to mention the Catalyst was actually foreshadowed.

Nope. 

I assume by 'foreshadowing' you mean the single line from Vendetta that's never talked about to referred to ever again, which you can miss.

That's not 'foreshadowing'. 

[MegaSovereign]

No, it was NOT an unsolvable problem.

The narrative never made it impossible for Bioware to implement a different way to explain the Crucible's capabilities. You even said they "could have but didn't." That literally means there is more than one way to solve it.

That's not 'foreshadowing'.

Please, stop it. Yes it is.

[The Night Mammoth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

No, it was NOT an unsolvable problem.

The narrative never made it impossible for Bioware to implement a different way to explain the Crucible's capabilities. You even said they "could have but didn't." That literally means there is more than one way to solve it.

At the point where the Catalyst appears, it is. There's no natural way to reveal what happens or solve those problems, so they introduce the Catalyst as a contrived expository tool. 

That's not 'foreshadowing'.

Please, stop it. Yes it is.

My, what a reasoned case you have!

[MegaSovereign]

At the point where the Catalyst appears, it is. There's no natural way to reveal what happens or solve those problems, so they introduce the Catalyst as a contrived expository tool.

Yea but there was nothing stopping Bioware from having the Crucible's capabilities explained in a different way. Such as EDI telling you what it does. It's not "unsolvable" nor is it actually a central conflict to the plot. The central conflict was "stop the Reapers by finding and using the key component in completing the Crucible."

My, what a reasoned case you have!

I don't even need an argument on this one. It was foreshadowed on Thessia. The VI was pretty clear about it too.

[The Night Mammoth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

At the point where the Catalyst appears, it is. There's no natural way to reveal what happens or solve those problems, so they introduce the Catalyst as a contrived expository tool.

Yea but there was nothing stopping Bioware from having the Crucible's capabilities explained in a different way. Such as EDI telling you what it does. It's not "unsolvable" nor is it actually a central conflict to the plot. The central conflict was "stop the Reapers by finding and using the key component in completing the Crucible."

Aaaaaaaaand they introduced a completely new and unsupported entity to solve them, thus a DEM. 

My, what a reasoned case you have!

I don't even need an argument on this one. It was foreshadowed on Thessia. The VI was pretty clear about it too.

Then I no longer care about your opinion on the matter. 

One single line that the player can miss that doesn't even foreshadow the Catalyst, and that is never referred to again, is not 'foreshadowing' by any reasonable definition of the convention.

[M Hedonist]

MegaSovereign wrote...

TBH I never understood how synthesis actually solves tech singularity.

Apparently, it does. Somehow. *shrugs shoulders*

[Seival]

Sauruz wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

STOP TALKING TO HIM GOD DAMN IT

Couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm so tired of arguing with Seival by now. Nevermind how good your argument is, he'll eventually go "I disagree with your argument". All of his threads need to be abandoned and forgotten forever.
Let's just have a little more patience for everybody to realize how futile it is to attempt arguing with Seival and make the best of it while it lasts.

Disagree. In addition to support, such threads are very good to prepare some particular people to the inevitable. Crucible+Citadel+Catalist "scenario trinity" will never be removed from ME3. They are set in stone. Case closed. No changes to that will be ever made. So, the best thing haters can do right now is to try to understand.

Modifié par Seival, 11 juin 2012 - 08:06 .

[Joe Del Toro]

Not gonna suck me in again, Seival.

The rest of you, I say again, stop god damn posting here if you hate the guy's rationale so much.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Disagree. In addition to support, such threads are very good to prepare some particular people to the inevitable. Crucible+Citadel+Catalist "scenario trinity" will never be removed from ME3. They are set in stone. Case closed. No changes to that will be ever made.

Unfortunately, a great story will be forever marred by their existence. 

So, the best thing haters can do right now is to try to understand.

I do understand them, I just don't subscribe to your asinine explanations. 

Your arrogance offends me. 

[M Hedonist]

Seival wrote...

Disagree.

That perfectly sums up your way of arguing.
Guess what? I disagree with your disagreement.

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Disagree. In addition to support, such threads are very good to prepare some particular people to the inevitable. Crucible+Citadel+Catalist "scenario trinity" will never be removed from ME3. They are set in stone. Case closed. No changes to that will be ever made.

Unfortunately, a great story will be forever marred by their existence. 

So, the best thing haters can do right now is to try to understand.

I do understand them, I just don't subscribe to your asinine explanations. 

Your arrogance offends me. 

Not all players hate the endings. And I'm sure that haters are just minority... And this minority becomes lesser and lesser each month... No offense...

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...


Not all players hate the endings.

NO WAY?

Wow, I didn't know that!

And I'm sure that haters are just minority... And this minority becomes lesser and lesser each month... No offense...

Bullsh*t conjecture.