21 réponses à ce sujet

[The Potty 1]

Just thinking this seems vaguely heretical, but what this game needs is an item that boosts divine spell casting speed.

I mean really, mages are supremely overpowered, and what do they get? Yup, the robe of Venca. Clerics get the amulet of power until you manage to assemble the iMoD, then it gets taken away and given to someone else for the level drain protection. Except fighters & thieves can't wear it, so it ends up on your mage. Score: Cleric 0, Mage +4, or perhaps +3/+1 if you have a bard or a second mage.

Now let's look at divine spells. Heal? Harm? Bless? Chant? Doom? Animate dead? Call lightning? Creeping doom? Insect plague? Summon insects? Summon fire/earth elemental? Elemental swarm? Death ward? Earthquake? Fire storm? Ironskin? Raise dead/ressurection? Riteous magic? Symbol death/fear/stun? All 1 round. False dawn? Bolt of glory? Blade barrier? Globe of blades? Fire protection? Archon Shield? 9 casting time.

All in all, cleric / druids got shafted, and mages got boosted even more. Hell, compare stoneskin to ironskin. One casts instantly, and one takes a round to cast. Guess which is which.

Personally I plan to edit the ring of holiness so it boosts spellcasting by 3, and cheat it into my inventory 

[corey_russell]

If you are trying to say the game stacks the deck in favor of mages, I would tend to agree, with the massive # of defensive buffs they get, not to mention their contigencies and sequencers and triggers.

It should be mentioned, though that cleric summons will generally own mage summons until the mage can finally get planetars. Skeletal warriors plus ariel servants are strong against many enemies. Yes mages get animate dead too, but the cleric can get the warriors using level 3 spell slots, which means they can summon many more. A mage has to use a precious level 5 slot to get one.

A cleric though can wear full plate and still cast spells - a mage doesn't get this ability. A cleric has has higher HP die (8) vs mage (4). Finally, a properly buffed cleric can own a mage if he can't dispel the cleric's buffs -- but even if he could, the cleric could dispel the mage's buffs too, and when that happens, the mage going to take some pain from the FoA.

Guess all I'm trying to say is clerics get some advantages the mage doesn't, though as you pointed out, it's not the cleric's spell casting times.

[saros_shadow_follower]

corey_russell wrote...

If you are trying to say the game stacks the deck in favor of mages, I would tend to agree, with the massive # of defensive buffs they get, not to mention their contigencies and sequencers and triggers.

It should be mentioned, though that cleric summons will generally own mage summons until the mage can finally get planetars. Skeletal warriors plus ariel servants are strong against many enemies. Yes mages get animate dead too, but the cleric can get the warriors using level 3 spell slots, which means they can summon many more. A mage has to use a precious level 5 slot to get one.

A cleric though can wear full plate and still cast spells - a mage doesn't get this ability. A cleric has has higher HP die (8) vs mage (4). Finally, a properly buffed cleric can own a mage if he can't dispel the cleric's buffs -- but even if he could, the cleric could dispel the mage's buffs too, and when that happens, the mage going to take some pain from the FoA.

Guess all I'm trying to say is clerics get some advantages the mage doesn't, though as you pointed out, it's not the cleric's spell casting times.

Mages' summons are better even at lower levels, not that it matters. Spiders are better than regular skeletons, mordy swords are more resilient than any of a cleric's summons. But technically, a cleric cannot beat a mage even at lower levels. As long as the mage is protected by Abjuration and Vocalized, a cleric has no chance to dispel a mage's buffs or silence the mage for that matter. As for the extra hp per level, there are things which the mage has that improve the balance in arcane favor: Vampiric Touch and Find Familiar. Yes, clerics are weaker. There is no argue about that. But I'd say, without some way to give a cleric Alacrity, at higher levels even the decreased casting speed will matter very little. As for Iron Skins, there are mods which set its casting time like that of a Stoneskin, and I think it's fair. Then again, Ironskins can't be Breached, unlike Stoneskin.

The full plate is relevant...how? Spirit armor... Of course, there is the AC modifiers of the full plate, but the Spirit armor grants 3 bonus to save vs spells. Guess which one I'd chose anytime.

[corey_russell]

Saros I think you are preaching to the choir. I readily agree the mage is more powerful. All I said there are some points in the cleric's favor, not that the points are enough to even them out or be better than the mage.

And you are missing an important detail about armor -- the cleric can wear it all times...if the PC mage travels between areas, the spirit armor buff could expire when he arrives! The cleric has no such issue. Potentially at least, spirit armor can be dispelled - again cleric's armor has no such weakness. You could enter that room in Watcher's Keep and have all your buffs removed -- sorry spirit armor! Oh, cleric armor is still there...

And my PC clerics HAVE defeated many a mage in vanilla properly buffed. We don't play against each other but the computer.

EDIT: Fair point about mordy swords? But aren't they a 7th level spell? Cleric's have strong summons 7th level as well, a Deva. A deva with its globe of blades active will out damage a mordy sword any day of the week.

But it's a moot point as both cleric and mage summons are effective. E.g, a group of mordy swords will defeat many enemies, and a group of ariel servants would also defeat a great number of enemies.

Modifié par corey_russell, 14 mai 2012 - 05:20 .

[AnonymousHero]

corey_russell wrote...
And you are missing an important detail about armor -- the cleric can wear it all times...if the PC mage travels between areas, the spirit armor buff could expire when he arrives!

Doesn't matter. He'll be invisible . If not from Invisibility (L2), he can always cast Imp. Invisibility instantly. Or he can put Imp. Invis + whatever in a contingency/trigger. Etc.

corey_russell wrote...
The cleric has no such issue. Potentially at least, spirit armor can be dispelled - again cleric's armor has no such weakness. You could enter that room in Watcher's Keep and have all your buffs removed -- sorry spirit armor! Oh, cleric armor is still there...

Improved Alacrity doesn't get removed by antimagic rooms, IIRC. Also, IIRC there's just enough time to get Improved Alacrity up and running (and thus buff the rest of the way instantly) before you're slaughtered in the one room where it matters.

(Also, arguing from such special circumstances is a bit silly, IMO. I think there are exactly 3 rooms with anti-magic... of which you can skip two?)

corey_russell wrote...

And my PC clerics HAVE defeated many a mage in vanilla properly buffed. We don't play against each other but the computer.

Mages in vanilla are ridiculously stupid -- almost all of them are trivial to defeat for almost all classes. SCS II mages are another story. Not that that I'm disputing that a Cleric can defeat them, mind you... HI > AI most of the time

corey_russell wrote...


EDIT: Fair point about mordy swords? But aren't they a 7th level spell? Cleric's have strong summons 7th level as well, a Deva. A deva with its globe of blades active will out damage a mordy sword any day of the week.

Mordy swords can actually dish out decent damage when hasted, but it doesn't matter. Their use is mostly defensive (for me at least) or in cases where you really have no other options, e.g. when some spells are still unavailable. They are an almost indestructible wall which lets the mage hang back and wipe the floor with his enemies while staying out of harm's way.

(I do get your point though. It's just fun arguing about these things )

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 14 mai 2012 - 05:33 .

[ussnorway]

A Cleric can cloak as well but he has the advantage of still being able to interact without dropping the cloak eg. SCS is notoriously buggy about having enemies surround cloaked heroes... the final escape from the Drow city (underdark) springs to mind. Yes, we both cloak but mine is a faster level one spell & the mage is stuck while my Cleric just walks up to a group of Drow and waits for them to pop... I can also ‘False Dawn’, ‘Turn' Un-dead * & activate trinkets like "Abyssal Pipe" (Drops a ‘cloudkill’) or anything else that doesn’t target the enemy directly.

Mages are all about doing high damage in a short space of time & are “BETTER” at it than Clerics but mano-a-mano the Cleric (I’ll let someone else do the Druids) has the edge because BladeB/ FlailoA aren’t Abjuration... even if they were I can stay cloaked longer than you can keep Spell immunity up.

p.s. I assume your joking about spiders being "BETTER" than skellies... Try sending them both into a ‘CloudKill’ (or any other magical) effect & we’ll see.

* Admittedly you have to be evil to get the most out of this or you’ll end up destroying your own ads but sicking a mod of vampires against someone never gets old.

[Shadow_Leech07]

@OP: I think from a role playing perspective, it makes a bit of sense. Clerics derive magical power from their deity/deities, and wizards derive their power from pretty much anything they can. Divine magic can be seen as restrictive, while arcane magic is expansive. But perhaps another reason cleric casting speed is nerfed is to simply make arcane magic look good. If both cleric and wizard spellcasters had the same upgrade, then we would just see them as being similar with wizards getting the better spells and HLA. Well that's just my observations.

[The Potty 1]

I think you may be getting sidetracked into a debate about summons

My point is, mages are generally stronger than clerics against everything but undead. If one of my mages turns the tide of a fight I was losing, it's all in a day's work. If my cleric does it I'm rather chuffed, and if they actually manage to cast the damn heal on my tank who's valiantly wailing away with 12 hit points, that's also a good day.

Also, as Saros pointed out, the advantage gained is pretty small. Mages get improved alacrity, Clerics don't, so all you gain is a slightly lower chance of spell disruption, and a shorter time between choosing an action and the result. It may also mean you can cast and attack in the same round, I'll have to check.

In fact although my intention is to make clerics and druids more appealing, the actual result is probably to make cleric/mages more appealing. Which proves the imbalance even further.

The solution is simple. the item which grants this effect should be something like full plate, which a cleric/mage could equip, but at the expense of disabling arcane casting. Druids cause problems here because they can only wear leather armour, so really you need a second item for them.

In any case, I'm gonna edit PLAT11 (Delver's Plate +2 - Loot from Chief DigDag) & LEAT17 (Armor of Deep Night +4 bought from Ribald).

[ussnorway]

I agree that mages are stronger (spells) but IMO that’s because they are specialist casters who pump their heart and souls into casting and I read your post as suggesting they get something of a free ride here.

Clerics and Druids are both hybrids that split their talents into not just spells but also hit points, Thac0, armour and weapons resulting in a Fighter/spells mix capable of at least temporally standing up to melee combat... IMO a meaningful comparison would need to look at Bards to make sense because that class also splits between spells/ abilities*.

On the subject of armour, I can see a Druid wanting extra speed for his ‘Insect Plague’/ ‘Creeping Doom’ and there are already two examples of leather that permits arcane casting so from a RP angle it doesn’t look that far off the mark;
1 Jan has designed and built (presumably from turnips) leather armour that lets him cast his spells.
2 Valygar also wears leather that permits arcane spells but this is actually a heraldry item (we know from his personal quest that the arcane runs through his family tree) so presumably at least one of his ancestors was a Bard... I know my Bards always want it if I don’t have Valygar in my group.

* Both Clerics/Druids max out their spell power at level 14 (16 for bards) & 7th divine spells compare very competitively to 7th arcane spells:
Experience/ level needed to hit Max spell level;
1500000exp Druid 7th,
1350000exp Cleric 7th,
1320000exp Bard (6th level),
3000000exp mage i.e. double what the druid needs!

... Yes, a mage goes on to eventually cast 9th arcane spells but he doesn’t get there until level 18 and is uniquely required to invest in the ability stats (18 Intel is the min) in order to cast high levels of spells.

[morbidest2]

I agree that Clerics/druids already have so many advantages in being able use both muscle and magic that they don't need more help. A lot of people would argue that over the course of SoA, WK and ToB, an R/C is about the most powerful PC you could have. Wanting to spruce them up even more strikes me as the same as advocating that a thief should be able to set up spiketraps even after an enemy is sighted. "We must have balance!"

[Shadow_Leech07]

The Potty 1 wrote...
My point is, mages are generally stronger than clerics against everything but undead. If one of my mages turns the tide of a fight I was losing, it's all in a day's work. If my cleric does it I'm rather chuffed, and if they actually manage to cast the damn heal on my tank who's valiantly wailing away with 12 hit points, that's also a good day.

Also, as Saros pointed out, the advantage gained is pretty small. Mages get improved alacrity, Clerics don't, so all you gain is a slightly lower chance of spell disruption, and a shorter time between choosing an action and the result. It may also mean you can cast and attack in the same round, I'll have to check.

I think clerics should get uninterruptible spell casting. For me it makes a bit of sense, it allows them to be immune to stuff like insect plague.  And it's not like they are meticulously weaving and manipulating magical energies when casting, they are simply drawing power from their divinity.

Instead of enchanting platemail, I think the "Amulet of Power" counterpart should be some kind of ring...aptly named "Ring of Power" Kidding aside, giving clerics/druids IA certainly balances the field somewhat. Anyways just my two cents.

[The Potty 1]

Actually I quite like that. Given you're drawing power from a god, getting the god to speed up delivery a bit seems slightly obnoxious. On the other hand being able to shrug off earthly distractions while communing with your god seems credible. Let me see if anything like this exists in infinity explorer.

EDIT I still think it should be blocked to arcane casters, and the easiest way to do that is via armour. Although the tweakpack includes a change to allow casting in armor with a chance of spell failure, but this negates spell faliure ... damn.

Modifié par The Potty 1, 16 mai 2012 - 07:39 .

[saros_shadow_follower]

Can't you somehow tweak an item so that it can be usable only by single-class clerics or druids?

[The Potty 1]

I don't think you can exclude classes, only include them. Given I'm trying to prevent cleric/mages from becoming more appealing instead of my target classes of clerics or druids, this isn't enough. To be clear, I don't mind if other multiclass clerics use it, or even rangers. Anyone playing a Ranger/cleric probably wants a cleric-o-doom anyway.

I can't check infinity explorer until I've re-installed BG2 because my old home laptop's screencard just tanked. I'm actually gonna try installing either with Wine or a virtual windows box on linux, so don't hold your breath.

[ussnorway]

My NI is an old one but the normal way is to click boxes for the people that CAN'T use the item, in this screenshot only a Halfling mage can use the sword. Note that it's hard to be sure because there is always something, a Mage/ Cleric/ Thief with UAI?

Modifié par ussnorway, 17 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[polytope]

If you want the casting speed benefits of the item to only apply to clerics (and not, say mage/thieves with the UAI ability) there's an easy way to do it; add 4 equipping effects of #177 (the "use eff file" opcode), values for param 1 would be 3, 8, 15 and 18 (cleric, fighter/cleric, cleric/thief and ranger/cleric) values for param 2 set to 5 (the class IDS file).

Then set the resource key to the filename of an external eff file which gives a bonus to casting speed, I like this approach, i.e an item which gives greater benefits to one class better than an item which can only be used by that class.

[ussnorway]

If you do it that way would the subclasses (Priest of Talos, Totemic Druid, etc) get the bonus?

Presumably you would also need to have ToB installed but that’s not a major issue now days.

[polytope]

ussnorway wrote...

If you do it that way would the subclasses (Priest of Talos, Totemic Druid, etc) get the bonus?

Presumably you would also need to have ToB installed but that’s not a major issue now days.

Yes, a #177 effect targetted for clerics will include all cleric kits, but wouldn't include fighter/clerics or other multiclasses unless you add them (to include druids & fighter/druids add two more instances of #177, with values 11 & 16 for param 1).

It should work without ToB, but I'm pretty sure the "casting speed bonus" effect doesn't work at all in BG1 engine.

[BelgarathMTH]

I don't really have an opinion, here, but someone mentioned a mage needing 18 int to cast high level spells. Unfortunately, that rule was never implemented in BG, making int good only for increasing the chance of writing a new spell into the spell book, and increasing the total number of spells per level that can be scribed.

If you mod "all spells automatically learned" from Tweaks, intelligence is strangely rendered totally useless for a mage. A mage with 10 int is going to be just as effective as a mage with 20 int.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 22 mai 2012 - 03:08 .

[corey_russell]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

I don't really have an opinion, here, but someone mentioned a mage needing 18 int to cast high level spells. Unfortunately, that rule was never implemented in BG, making int good only for increasing the chance of writing a new spell into the spell book, and increasing the total number of spells per level that can be scribed.

If you mod "all spells automatically learned" from Tweaks, intelligence is strangely rendered totally useless for a mage. A mage with 10 int is going to be just as effective as a mage with 20 int.

It's not quite as useless as you say, Belgarath -- a mage with 20 INT 10 WIS will have a heck more lore than a mage with 10 INT 10 WIS. He will also be able to tank mind flayers much better than the 10 INT mage as well (tenser's transfiguration, etc.). Potentially, everything thing you ID with lore is one less thing you have to pay 100 gold to ID. Yes, you can use the indentify spell, but a lot of times, you just can't afford to keep enough permanently memorized (the massive # of items that needed IDed in D'Arnise Keep is a good example), so you often can't ID everything until you find an inn, but that might be inconvenient if you want to use the item immediately...

Granted, with enough potions of genius, the 10 INT mage will eventually be able to tank mind flayers good as the 20 INT, but that could be money used to buy spells, or buy wands back. But then again, with enough potions of genius (and there are a LOT in vanilla BG 2) even a 10 INT mage could memorize spells with no problem, even with normal spell failure rules, so kind of renders your point meaningless...

Your point was fun to read, though.

[AnonymousHero]

corey_russell wrote...
It's not quite as useless as you say, Belgarath -- a mage with 20 INT 10 WIS will have a heck more lore than a mage with 10 INT 10 WIS. He will also be able to tank mind flayers much better than the 10 INT mage as well (tenser's transfiguration, etc.). Potentially, everything thing you ID with lore is one less thing you have to pay 100 gold to ID. Yes, you can use the indentify spell, but a lot of times, you just can't afford to keep enough permanently memorized (the massive # of items that needed IDed in D'Arnise Keep is a good example), so you often can't ID everything until you find an inn, but that might be inconvenient if you want to use the item immediately...

PfMW renders Mind Flayers completely impotent (EDIT: well, in melee, anyway.) and you can wipe them out with a few select summons -- hasted Mordenkainen's swords are my particular favorite though Skeleton Warriors may work too (depending on mods, etc.).

For ID: Glasses of Identification.

For memorization: Potions of Genius (as you mentioned).

INT above 9 really is useless for a mage... except if you want to use the Golem Summoning manual, in which case you'll want 16(or 17?).

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 22 mai 2012 - 04:31 .

[corey_russell]

@anonymousHero:
The glasses of Identification is only 3x/day. As I mentioned in my post, D'Arnise keep has loads of unidentified stuff, so much that you would have to rest a ridiculous amount of times if you want to ID everything (I have actually done this with parties with bad lore scores)...obviously you can get by without it, I am just saying the 20 INT is useful, that's all. And yes you do need very high INT for the golem manual. PfMW lasts only 4 rounds, and is a level 6 spell too, so you're not likely to have many of them...though AH don't you normally play solo? The dynamics are different in that case, as you would have a lot more slots than a mage in a full party.