55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Ownaholic]

MaximizedAction wrote...

www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx

"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."

So by telling the player that he was indeed undergoing indoctrination would destroy a link between the player and Shepard that BW tried to establish.

In the KOTOR days a twist without explaining it would indeed have been fatal because then the game would've been released and finished without a proper story wrap up.
But in DLC days you have new possibilities for designing your story progression. And you could not do that with Expansion packs in the old days, because they cannot be given to the player for free...DLC can.

This guy gets the PRIIIIIIIIIIZE.

[balance5050]

Nauks wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 Why does TIM say "I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers" if Mass Effect 1 happened only a few years ago?

He's been trying to understand them ever since he got his eyes from that Reaper device in the First Contact War, what's that like 30ish years?

K, just thought I'd point out that the Shanxi thing did in fact influence TIM for the last 30 years or so.

[Stigweird85]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

byne wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

Perhaps changing the thread title to something like 'pro IT theory discussion only' would be a good idea. There's no reason for haters to even bother in here. Just like a pro ending thread shouldn't be harrased either.

I like the intentions behind your suggestion.  However, as has been said in ways here and there, sometimes clear and well-spoken anti-theory arguments help to offer a different perspective, and a way for pro-theory folks to reaffirm and solidify their interpretations. 

I am trying to provide some clear and reasonable opposition. No troll like: LOL your all crazy

I beleive IT is a way to try to explain the endings thats all smoke and mirrors with no hard proof. "I see this and I see that" See what you want, but don't call every little bit final proof.

I beleive Bioware defends their ending and hates IT for calling it fake. To go with IT for them would be an insult to atristic everything.

If you beleive IT, then you must defend it. Thats science. If you can't, saying 'you don't know what your talking about' is not a defense.

Unfortunately, there is a small part of me that agrees with you.  I'm afraid that IT might be like finding Bigfoot - a bunch of scattered clues that only fit together if you really want them to fit together.

But then, on the other hand - clues like the appearance of the Starkid that just happens to look like the kid that haunts your dreams, and the ability of Shepard to survive the Citadel explosion (whether he wakes up on the Citadel or in London doesn't matter - neither are remotely possible), among other clues, can ONLY be explained by IT or poor writing. 

And I will give Bioware the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Plus, even if IT isnt true, by now Bioware surely realizes most fans hate the current endings.

They can either go down with the ship, and let Mass Effect go down in history as one of the most disappointing endings to a game ever, or they can implement IT, claim it was always their idea, and have a completely mindblowing ending.

Unless they are insanely attached to the horrible literal endings, they have no reason not to just take IT and run with it.

If they went with IT, it would be fan appeasement. "Okay lets roll with your ending and make you happy." . We all see that Bioware does not like being told their ending ideas suck. To roll with IT is like saying "yes we did not make a real ending"

The child was always some attempt at poetry that Shepard is hurting inside that he can't save everyone. The StarBrat is a Reaper using his weakness against him. Yes its not great writing, but I get it.

I asked this is another thread and was mostly ignored but...

You say that if IT is true it is simply fan appeasement so what would make you happy? What ending makes sense to you? IT is mostly speculation but it is speculation based around in game evidence and current lore.

[nightcobra]

EpyonX3 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


I always thought the reapers were simply making sure that there can never be a rival to them. Or that the needed organics to fuel them and multiply, therefore, harvesting them when their populations are largest.

Then I played the ending.

This was my thought also, the real threat of synthetics is to the reapers themselves, synthetics cannot be indoctrinated, and before anyone says anything, the heretics were not controlled, they "chose" to follow Sovereign believing him to be some kind of god.

But there were pockets of geth "loaded with reaper code." They would have been synthetic husks eventually.

a code is just that, a line of code.
by itself it won't come alive or have thoughts of its own.
the geth only used that particular code to improve their processing up to a point where it is equivalent to an organic's brain.

[balance5050]

Ownaholic wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx

"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."

So by telling the player that he was indeed undergoing indoctrination would destroy a link between the player and Shepard that BW tried to establish.

In the KOTOR days a twist without explaining it would indeed have been fatal because then the game would've been released and finished without a proper story wrap up.
But in DLC days you have new possibilities for designing your story progression. And you could not do that with Expansion packs in the old days, because they cannot be given to the player for free...DLC can.

This guy gets the PRIIIIIIIIIIZE.

If you haven't seen the Jesse Houston Comic-Con interview, you should. Check it out here:

http://www.youtube.c...g5xltLkk#t=291s 

Modifié par balance5050, 14 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[The Invisible Commando]

Sauruz wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

If they went with IT, it would be fan appeasement. "Okay lets roll with your ending and make you happy." . We all see that Bioware does not like being told their ending ideas suck. To roll with IT is like saying "yes we did not make a real ending"

The child was always some attempt at poetry that Shepard is hurting inside that he can't save everyone. The StarBrat is a Reaper using his weakness against him. Yes its not great writing, but I get it.

How do you know that IT is wrong and your headcanon is right? Maybe Bioware always intended IT. Your headcanon isn't much less baseless than IT.
Besides, how did the Reaper know Shepard was "hurting inside" about that child?
I found a plot hole in your headcanon.

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.

Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.

If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?

Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?

[IronSabbath88]

July/August can't come fast enough.

I'm just gonna be glad that we get a definitive end to my favourite game series of all time. Even if it's a total flop, the Mass Effect original trilogy will live on as my favourite for a long time.

[Falloutwarfare]

balance5050 wrote...

 Why does TIM say "I've spent my whole life trying to understand the reapers" if Mass Effect 1 happened only a few years ago?

I think in one of the book/comic things he comes into contact with reapers tech or something but you would have to read his page on the wiki to get the whole story cause i can only remember some parts i red there.

[Ownaholic]

balance5050 wrote...

If you haven't seen the Jesse Houston Comic-Con interview, you should. Check it out here:

http://www.youtube.c...g5xltLkk#t=291s 

The top comment on that video is all I needed to see:

"I can't tell you that the end of the story will be on the disc... But  within that context, given the terms there's a bit of a different.. the way that we're structuring the story is pretty different.. So it will make a good sense why the dlc plugs in to where it does."

Good find my friend.

Modifié par Ownaholic, 14 mai 2012 - 07:03 .

[DJBare]

Ownaholic wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx

"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."

So by telling the player that he was indeed undergoing indoctrination would destroy a link between the player and Shepard that BW tried to establish.

In the KOTOR days a twist without explaining it would indeed have been fatal because then the game would've been released and finished without a proper story wrap up.
But in DLC days you have new possibilities for designing your story progression. And you could not do that with Expansion packs in the old days, because they cannot be given to the player for free...DLC can.

This guy gets the PRIIIIIIIIIIZE.

And the real interesting part, a lot of us do feel betrayed, or at least used to feel that way in some cases, and indoctrination is about betrayal, imagine finding the crucible is another reaper trap and Hackett is indoctrinated to ensure it get's built and delivered where it's needed, earth, with the reaper heart as it's source it becomes one giant indoc device, 11 billion(less the dead) potential humans indoctrinated.

[byne]

DJBare wrote...

byne wrote...

DJBare wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


I always thought the reapers were simply making sure that there can never be a rival to them. Or that the needed organics to fuel them and multiply, therefore, harvesting them when their populations are largest.

Then I played the ending.

This was my thought also, the real threat of synthetics is to the reapers themselves, synthetics cannot be indoctrinated, and before anyone says anything, the heretics were not controlled, they "chose" to follow Sovereign believing him to be some kind of god.

But that was because Sovereign indoctrinated them with a virus of some sort that made them think differently.

So yeah, they chose to follow him, but only because he changed how they made decisions.

Where was this cited?, Legion specifically tells you the heretics made the choice to leave the consesus.

Legion says Sovereign changed the way the Heretics thought. He had an analogy: True geth say 1 is less than 2. Heretics say 2 is less than 3. Both are correct, but both are different ways of thinking.

Choosing to rewrite the geth during Legion's loyalty mission is basically you undoing the change Sovereign made to the Heretics, and once you do that, they stop following its orders and go back to the true geth

[dreamgazer]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.

Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.

If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?

Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?

Manipulating one of humanity's great saviors is far, far more beneficial than turning him/her into a martyr.

Also, vagueness shouldn't be instantly dismissed as "poorly introduced". If we were to come in front of the catalyst at that juncture, we would have the same lack of information as Shepard.

[blooregard]

I was wondering about the dreamtree files.

What are the file names in the actual dreams? Are they the same or different.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

If they went with IT, it would be fan appeasement. "Okay lets roll with your ending and make you happy." . We all see that Bioware does not like being told their ending ideas suck. To roll with IT is like saying "yes we did not make a real ending"

The child was always some attempt at poetry that Shepard is hurting inside that he can't save everyone. The StarBrat is a Reaper using his weakness against him. Yes its not great writing, but I get it.

How do you know that IT is wrong and your headcanon is right? Maybe Bioware always intended IT. Your headcanon isn't much less baseless than IT.
Besides, how did the Reaper know Shepard was "hurting inside" about that child?
I found a plot hole in your headcanon.

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.

Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.

If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?

Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?

Except unlike a bond villian, the Reapers actually have a reason for wanting Shepard. Indoctrinated Shepard in the right place = the war is pretty much over.

Also mind reading is another part of the Mass Effect universe which is unprecented until the end if that is how the starbrat  knew of the child. The Reapers make suggestions, control, but they dont mindread from what we ahve seen.

[Bill Casey]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Why he closed the first thread?

It went wildy off-topic and was continuing to get further and further up the unruly-o-meter.

Back on-topic.

Summary of IT without pointing out the specifics:

• The kid (starting at no later than the vent conversation) isn't real. The kid might be real before the vent though there is some doubt that anything after the kid playing in the opening scene is real involving the kid.
• Anything involving the kid after that is indoc surfacing.
• When Shep gets hit by Harby's laser, the fight against indoc begins in his mind. He has not gotten back up.
• TIM is the indoc and Anderson is Shepard.
• If that fails, the indoc tries to trick Shepard and sway him from the destroy option.
• If he chooses destroy (with enough EMS), he wakes up back in London.

What happens next? Dunno

A lot of this is based on strange coincidences in-game that seem to have a cohesive intent behind them. Add to it that someone admitted that they were considering an indoctrination fight at one stage, some believe that this is where they were intending to go with it.

The bolded points are optional parts of the theory...

[M Hedonist]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

If they went with IT, it would be fan appeasement. "Okay lets roll with your ending and make you happy." . We all see that Bioware does not like being told their ending ideas suck. To roll with IT is like saying "yes we did not make a real ending"

The child was always some attempt at poetry that Shepard is hurting inside that he can't save everyone. The StarBrat is a Reaper using his weakness against him. Yes its not great writing, but I get it.

How do you know that IT is wrong and your headcanon is right? Maybe Bioware always intended IT. Your headcanon isn't much less baseless than IT.
Besides, how did the Reaper know Shepard was "hurting inside" about that child?
I found a plot hole in your headcanon.

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.

Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.

If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?

Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?

They did it to indoctrinate him. They wanted to have their own indoctrinated Shepard at their disposal. Shepard is probably one of the most important organics of that cycle, it wouldn't make sense not to try indoctrinating him.
Seriously. Go watch the video already.

[byne]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.

Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.

If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?

Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?

"What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?" - Bastila Shan

[Ravereth]

http://desmond.image...png&res=landing
+
"You have hope, more than you think"
=
"How many reapers does it take to stop Commander Shepard? six houndred and one. Six houndred fight his intergalactic armada and one pretends to be a kid and talks him into suicide"
OK I gues I should go play some MP... 

[Bill Casey]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen.

Indoctrination Theory states the Reapers are in Shepard's head trying to alter his opinions through psychological conditioning...

Shepard is only indoctrinated when he believes he can control the reapers, or when he accepts forcibly combining organics and synthetics to create new life that is the pinnacle of evolution and existence...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 14 mai 2012 - 07:14 .

[balance5050]

 The tree reflections during the end use the same model of trees found in the beginning of the game when you first see the child.

[The Invisible Commando]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

If they went with IT, it would be fan appeasement. "Okay lets roll with your ending and make you happy." . We all see that Bioware does not like being told their ending ideas suck. To roll with IT is like saying "yes we did not make a real ending"

The child was always some attempt at poetry that Shepard is hurting inside that he can't save everyone. The StarBrat is a Reaper using his weakness against him. Yes its not great writing, but I get it.

How do you know that IT is wrong and your headcanon is right? Maybe Bioware always intended IT. Your headcanon isn't much less baseless than IT.
Besides, how did the Reaper know Shepard was "hurting inside" about that child?
I found a plot hole in your headcanon.

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.

Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.

If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?

Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?

Except unlike a bond villian, the Reapers actually have a reason for wanting Shepard. Indoctrinated Shepard in the right place = the war is pretty much over.

Also mind reading is another part of the Mass Effect universe which is unprecented until the end if that is how the starbrat  knew of the child. The Reapers make suggestions, control, but they dont mindread from what we ahve seen.

War is over? Shepard is a thorn but is still just one human. I'm sure that husk army can do more damage. Starchild is desprate to stop Shepard at the last minute. "Woah hey there pal, you don't want to kill us. We can be friends right?" Harby just failed to kill Shepard so the big boss has to step in.

The average Asari and Javik can pull some pretty awesome mind tricks. Hell, Javik can tell who was in the room months ago. I gonna bet a Reaper can do that and more.

[Ravereth]

Ownaholic wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

If you haven't seen the Jesse Houston Comic-Con interview, you should. Check it out here:

http://www.youtube.c...g5xltLkk#t=291s 

The top comment on that video is all I needed to see:

"I can't tell you that the end of the story will be on the disc... But  within that context, given the terms there's a bit of a different.. the way that we're structuring the story is pretty different.. So it will make a good sense why the dlc plugs in to where it does."

Good find my friend.

I think, that he says "I CAN tell you..." 

[balance5050]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

If they went with IT, it would be fan appeasement. "Okay lets roll with your ending and make you happy." . We all see that Bioware does not like being told their ending ideas suck. To roll with IT is like saying "yes we did not make a real ending"

The child was always some attempt at poetry that Shepard is hurting inside that he can't save everyone. The StarBrat is a Reaper using his weakness against him. Yes its not great writing, but I get it.

How do you know that IT is wrong and your headcanon is right? Maybe Bioware always intended IT. Your headcanon isn't much less baseless than IT.
Besides, how did the Reaper know Shepard was "hurting inside" about that child?
I found a plot hole in your headcanon.

Reapers can speak to the mind. They can get in your head. That doesn't mean you have to be fully indotrinated for that to happen. Shepard is famous among the Reapers, their big nemesis. Use his weakness on him.

Your also talking to the Reaper God. It is very powerful and since its poorly intoduced, we don't know what it can and can not do. If the average Reaper can turn organics into husks, it stands to reason their god can do more. Trying to fool Shepard with a child that Shepard is thinks about won't be too hard.

If Shepard is on the ground in London and the Reaper in his head knows he is alive then why not just finish him off and end the anti-Reaper threat. Reapers aren't smart enought to hit him twice?

Your turning Reapers into James Bond villians who never just shoot Bond in the head. Have to do it the hard way for some reason?

Except unlike a bond villian, the Reapers actually have a reason for wanting Shepard. Indoctrinated Shepard in the right place = the war is pretty much over.

Also mind reading is another part of the Mass Effect universe which is unprecented until the end if that is how the starbrat  knew of the child. The Reapers make suggestions, control, but they dont mindread from what we ahve seen.

War is over? Shepard is a thorn but is still just one human. I'm sure that husk army can do more damage. Starchild is desprate to stop Shepard at the last minute. "Woah hey there pal, you don't want to kill us. We can be friends right?" Harby just failed to kill Shepard so the big boss has to step in.

The average Asari and Javik can pull some pretty awesome mind tricks. Hell, Javik can tell who was in the room months ago. I gonna bet a Reaper can do that and more.

Shepard is the most vital asset because people trust him and he gives them hope. If you have an indoctrinated Shepard he could most llikely get the rest of the galaxy to line up for processing ON A SILVER PLATTER.... so to speak.

[MaximizedAction]

Ravereth wrote...

http://desmond.image...png&res=landing
+
"You have hope, more than you think"
=
"How many reapers does it take to stop Commander Shepard? six houndred and one. Six houndred fight his intergalactic armada and one pretends to be a kid and talks him into suicide"
OK I gues I should go play some MP... 

A fine example of how the game treats indoctrination as something that seems only to happen to other people, thus also somehow reassuring you that something like that can NEVER, EVER, happen to you.

That's a psychological trick for the first playthroughs but possible evidence for analytical approaches.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 14 mai 2012 - 07:20 .

[balance5050]

Ravereth wrote...

Ownaholic wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

If you haven't seen the Jesse Houston Comic-Con interview, you should. Check it out here:

http://www.youtube.c...g5xltLkk#t=291s 

The top comment on that video is all I needed to see:

"I can't tell you that the end of the story will be on the disc... But  within that context, given the terms there's a bit of a different.. the way that we're structuring the story is pretty different.. So it will make a good sense why the dlc plugs in to where it does."

Good find my friend.

I think, that he says "I CAN tell you..." 

Either way he's talking about the ending being on the disk when the game isn't even finished yet. Why? Shouldn't that that just be assumed? Way too suspicious.......