55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Arashi08]

Iconoclaste wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

..................... Should Harbinger have been in the Catalyst's place, or if he was the Catalyst in Shep's indoctrination dream, he would never have given Shepard the choice to destroy the only thing the reapers live for: the Cycle.

Good point.

Allowing Shepard to get any hint of a possible "destroy" ending is puzzling in that regard.

exactly, if the endings are to be taken literally, then why would the Catalyst offer the Destroy option at all?  in a literal ending it does so much more damage than if we assume this is a hallucination/indoctrination attempt. 

In a way, it actually makes MORE sense that the ending isn't real if the Destroy option is offered, because if Shepard chooses Destroy in the dream, then all it meansis that Shepard is free of their indoc attempt and they can try a new tactic.  If the ending is real then the star brat just shows Shepard a way to destroy both the Reapers AND itself, but essentially banks on Shepard choosing the other options, options that KILL shepard btw, only to save technology and other synthetics.  that seems like a gamble, something I would never expect a Reaper or an AI to take chances with.

So why is there a Destory option at all?  a more clever thing to do would be to offer the two choices only, but then make the player think about "wait a minute. I still have my gun.  why would they give me my gun if they didn't want me to use it on this part?  maybe there's a hidden third option I can choose to destroy the Reapers!"  if the endings were real then that would have been a more creative way to include destroy imo, and it would remove that ambiguous notion that maybe you killed all synthetics or maybe it was just the Reapers.

[Bill Casey]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Not necessarily. The Heretics were already believing something different. Rewritting them wouldbe making them think like everyone else, indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination is its own definition because of the goals and methods. Legion neither wants to wipe out organic life or control the heretics to accomplish the task.

Goals and methods are irrevelent...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juin 2012 - 03:25 .

[masster blaster]

BatmanTurian wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Control: surrendering and becoming a tool that is Indoctrinated to think like TIM
Synthesis: surrendering and becoming a tool that is indoctrinated to think like Saren
Destroy: Shepard's true goal and the only way to break the indoctrination attempt, rejecting the Reaper values entirely.

This. Yes. This.

I disagree.  While thematically, yes, you have the TIM, Saren, and Anderson endings, I think they are just themes and not submissions.

My point on the endings is that if the reapers aren't controlling the evolution, techinical progress, and eventrual destruction/harvest of species, then the cycle is over.  In all 3 endings, the reapers are done.  Finished.  Gone.  How you come to that conclusion is based on the reoccuring themes above.

I don't understand why anyone would think that the cycle actually continues in any of the endings.

Because we believe the ending isn't actually happening, but is happening in Shepard's head. Why are you not comprehending this? The Galaxy has its back up against the wall, but Shepard has allied the Galaxy against the Reapers and is probably the first organic to successfully do so. So their goal would be to turn Shepard into a traitor to kill the morale of this cycle and end the war as fast as possible so they don't lose anymore capital ships and can get back to reaping.. If Shepard falls to the Reapers, they have access to Shepard's charisma and skills. they would have a weapon to destroy all remaining resistance.


The point is, you believe the Reapers are giving up, when they have no reason to.

We believe Shepard is in the process of giving up and has one chance to make sure he doesn't.

Well said and with Sheprd under their control they have access to all of Shepard's memories and will us all the info on the galaxy and what their weakness and us it against everyone in the Galaxy.

[Dwailing]

Dwailing wrote...

Heh, I thought I was going to be off for the night, but I just had one more thing to share. I've just started replaying Half-Life, and that made me think, "Gee, this is how you make a game where you're going to make certain elements of the story ambiguous (Not my exact thoughts, but that's basically what I was thinking)." I mean seriously, Valve never gave us all the answers in Half-Life 1 or 2, but they did it in a way that didn't make people go bat-crap crazy. That's the way you tell a story without revealing everything, that's the way you encourage speculation. Not by making an ending that has no closure and is thematically revolting, but by making it plain from the beginning that you're never going to get ALL of the answers.

Just bumping this.  Not sure if it's discussion worthy, but I figured it was worth sharing.

[BatmanTurian]

MegaSovereign wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

How does the Catalyst win?

Control:  Reapers go off into deep space never to be seen again.  Loss.
Synthesis:  Organics and Synthetics merge, ending their constant war with each other, ending the cycle and no longer requiring reapers to exist.  Loss.
Destruction:  All Synthetics are destroyed, including the reapers, for now.  Loss.

Dude.

For ****s sake.

Read the thread title. "Was the Ending a Hallucination"

It's all a goddamn dream. That's what the IT proposes. If you choose Control/Synthesis, then you have failed to stop the Reapers. The cycle continues. The game at its current state doesn't show you that, because the real ending isn't on disc. That's the basic premise of the Indoctrination Theory. I don't believe it, but before you debate on it you should know and understand your opponents arguments.

Battle in the mind, not a dream,  though I have a theory that it might be that Shepard's mind is connected to the Reaper Concensus through "wifi " and Harbinger is manipulating the space Shepard is in, similar to when Shep was in the Geth concensus.

I don't believe  the Reapers are a networked intelligence like the geth.

They're each independent nations, according to Sovereign. Then again Bioware doesn't give a **** about ME1.

They are partially networked. The Rannoch Reaper says Harbinger speaks of Shepard. This means they communicate with each other.

By Concensus, I meant something like virtual reality, such as the Matrix. Geth concensus is basic. A Reaper Concensus would be vastly more technologically advanced and indistinguishable from reality.

That makes sense.

The thing is though IT still has a lot of issues. Like why Harbinger wants to indoctrinate Shepard instead of just killing him. Or how Shepard is able to fight indoctrination. Others who can resist it can only do it momentarily. 

The others who resisted were already indoctrinated, had already given in. Shepard hasn't given in until he chooses Control or Synthesis. Therefore, it won't be momentary. Also Harbinger was obsessed with Shepard throughout ME2 and Shepard is the leader of the resistant galaxy fighting them. turning him gives them an incredible ally and would destroy the galaxy's morale, making it easier and faster to reap.

[MegaSovereign]

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

[Golferguy758]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Screw you guys.

I'll make my own Indoctrination theory, with black jack and hookers.

Actually, you know what? Forget the Indoctrination theory or the black jack!

[Big G13]

BatmanTurian wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

How does the Catalyst win?

Control:  Reapers go off into deep space never to be seen again.  Loss.
Synthesis:  Organics and Synthetics merge, ending their constant war with each other, ending the cycle and no longer requiring reapers to exist.  Loss.
Destruction:  All Synthetics are destroyed, including the reapers, for now.  Loss.

Dude.

For ****s sake.

Read the thread title. "Was the Ending a Hallucination"

It's all a goddamn dream. That's what the IT proposes. If you choose Control/Synthesis, then you have failed to stop the Reapers. The cycle continues. The game at its current state doesn't show you that, because the real ending isn't on disc. That's the basic premise of the Indoctrination Theory. I don't believe it, but before you debate on it you should know and understand your opponents arguments.

Battle in the mind, not a dream,  though I have a theory that it might be that Shepard's mind is connected to the Reaper Concensus through "wifi " and Harbinger is manipulating the space Shepard is in, similar to when Shep was in the Geth concensus.

Not bad but but if Shepard dies then it's kinetic barriers go down and boom we kill Harby with one shot from the Normandy's main gun.

Joker: How do you like that you sons of a B*******" ME2 line.

Harbinger has to use a mass effect field just to land on Earth, so he doesn't even have strong kinetic barriers when he's at the Conduit.

Ya and remember when Soverign took control of Saren but when you killed Saren again it's Kinetic barriers go down.

That flaw has been corrected in the other Reapers. Plus, it's kind of obvious that Sovereign is.... " special " which is because he failed to stop the Protheans from sabotaging the Citadel, failed to weaken the current cycle with a war with the Rachni, is obviously overcompensating when you have conversations with him, he couldn't stop the Protheans from creating a shortcut into the Citadel, and... well he's just stupid.

HAHA! Sovereign is the Barney Fife of Reapers.

[Bill Casey]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

[Dwailing]

Golferguy758 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Screw you guys.

I'll make my own Indoctrination theory, with black jack and hookers.

Actually, you know what? Forget the Indoctrination theory or the black jack!

Uh, Golferguy, you're not giving up on us now, are you?

[Bill Casey]

Dwailing wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Screw you guys.

I'll make my own Indoctrination theory, with black jack and hookers.

Actually, you know what? Forget the Indoctrination theory or the black jack!

Uh, Golferguy, you're not giving up on us now, are you?

With Blackjack and Hookers

[Dwailing]

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

One thing that has always made Shepard unique is his stubborn determination to always complete his goals.  It's not so much of a battle of minds as a battle of wills.  And ultimately, as long as Shepard stays true to his original goals, he will prevail, simply because he refuses to accept that there is a chance that they will fail.

[Iconoclaste]

Makrys wrote...

The Reapers are not 'mind readers'. They don't get into someone's mind to troll them. They get into your mind to CONTROL YOU. 

Nothing you said was based on lore or the codex. Nothing like that has ever happened before. "Hallucinations of ghostly presences", is a direct symptom of indoctrination, so excuse me if I'm the only one who thought the starchild looked ghostly.

White, holographic, and wispy. Don't know how much more ghostly you can look. That's my interpretation. I just take facts from the lore and apply them to what I saw in the ending. I don't need you to agree with me.

A plain hologram is ok, no need to get paranormal here. We're just in the 21st century here, and already we can almost "read" parts of the brain's reactions. Probing an organic's mind, if already the possibility to "control" the mind exists, does not require much different means than those required to "read the memory". If TIM was able to "salvage" Shepard's mind from death, even with a long time spent without oxygen, then I would easily believe that the Reapers, being so advanced as to have the possibility to kill the body but "save the mind" of the "ascended", could as easily "read the memory".

[BatmanTurian]

thisisme8 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

A) He could be lying when he calls himself the Catalyst because a Catalyst isn't changed in a chemical reaction.

EDI disagrees with you. The suicide mission where humans are turned into slurpees to feed a human proto reaper disagrees with you. Their entire MO disagrees with you.

C. Control and Synthesis indoctrinate Shepard because what's happening isn't real. It's the Reapers trying to sway you, the player, and Shepard, to thier way of thinking.

As for the rest, I'll let someone else tackle it.

A) He could be telling the truth.

Does ME2 disagree with me?  The reapers were harvesting humans to create a reaper.  That's part of the cycle, the one thing reapers "live" for.

C) So if I choose Synthesis or Control, the entire ending sequence and Joker landing on some random planet with the rest of the crew and some old guy telling a kid about Shepard's adventures only happens in Shepard's mind?  Because if not, that points to the end of the cycle, which would make indoctrination moot.

A) he can't be. A Catalyst isn't changed by the reaction and he's associated with a cybernetic race of deceitful, manipulative, selfish, and needlessly cruel machines.

Yeah, to procreate, that's all they care about.

C) if you choose synthesis or control or destroy, the endings you see are shepard imagining hopeful things, or the Reapers feeding him more illusion. The only thing real is the Breath. The cycle will not have ended because the battle is still going on around Shepard while Shepard is still fighting the reapers in his mind.

[MegaSovereign]

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

[Dwailing]

Bill Casey wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Screw you guys.

I'll make my own Indoctrination theory, with black jack and hookers.

Actually, you know what? Forget the Indoctrination theory or the black jack!

Uh, Golferguy, you're not giving up on us now, are you?

With Blackjack and Hookers

OK, thanks for the explanation.  BTW, really funny clip.

[enayasoul]

FellishBeast wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Control: surrendering and becoming a tool that is Indoctrinated to think like TIM
Synthesis: surrendering and becoming a tool that is indoctrinated to think like Saren
Destroy: Shepard's true goal and the only way to break the indoctrination attempt, rejecting the Reaper values entirely.

This. Yes. This.

Pretty much this!  The reapers are all about self-preservation and adding Shepard's body to their "Reaperhood"...  they do say they wanted Shepard's body to be preserved!

Destroying the Reapers was and is my maleshep's goal. Guess we'll see how it works out.

[EpyonX3]

Bill Casey wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Not necessarily. The Heretics were already believing something different. Rewritting them wouldbe making them think like everyone else, indoctrination. Reaper indoctrination is its own definition because of the goals and methods. Legion neither wants to wipe out organic life or control the heretics to accomplish the task.

Goals and methods are irrevelent...

Are they? Legion and the non heretic geth don't want to side with the reapers. So they force the heretics to into thinking the way they thought before the reapers hacked them. It's more like restoring your software after a virus attack.

The reapers convince all they indoctrinate that the reapers are doing something good and gain support through it. But of course they are not. They are the virus.

So when Garrus says that to Legion, he's commenting on the moral implications of rewritting not becuse it's reaper like but because he's equating it to organics.

[masster blaster]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

Ya but if all else goes wrong then there is a gun in Shepard's hands so..." Wait aren't you in my head so does that mean we're connected Harby?'

Harby: Um... yes I think?"

Shepard: [ Smiles and put's the gun at the sied of his, or her head] I'll see you in hell Harby!

Harby:S**********************************.!

the screen goes black.

[llbountyhunter]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

How was grayson able to resisnt indoctrination??


The world may never know.....

[DirtyPhoenix]

I'm looking forward to how they explain Shepard being alive at the destroy ending, if they don't go for IT.

[Bill Casey]

MegaSovereign wrote...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

EDI: Ninety percent refused to report their fellow prisoners. Indoctrination should have reduced that number to zero.

Shepard: Maybe word got out on how indoctrination worked. And they made a decision.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[Dwailing]

Seriously, someone please tell me if my thoughts a minute ago about Half-Life vs. Mass Effect are comment worthy. All I want to know is if they are worthy of comments, or are not.

[FellishBeast]

Oy vey, man...you really don't get it, do you?

The Reapers are trying to get Shepard to compromise in the ending. The whole point of the entire ME series is to stop the Reapers. If they they came out and said, "lol wann serrender?" it would be an obvious trick. They are trying to make surrender look good by dressing it up in pretty colors.

[MegaSovereign]

llbountyhunter wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

How was grayson able to resisnt indoctrination??


The world may never know.....

Wasn't that guy addicted to red sand?

Maybe drug and alcohol abusers are immune to indoctrination.