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[Starbuck8]

Arashi08 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

..................... Should Harbinger have been in the Catalyst's place, or if he was the Catalyst in Shep's indoctrination dream, he would never have given Shepard the choice to destroy the only thing the reapers live for: the Cycle.

Good point.

Allowing Shepard to get any hint of a possible "destroy" ending is puzzling in that regard.

exactly, if the endings are to be taken literally, then why would the Catalyst offer the Destroy option at all?  in a literal ending it does so much more damage than if we assume this is a hallucination/indoctrination attempt. 

In a way, it actually makes MORE sense that the ending isn't real if the Destroy option is offered, because if Shepard chooses Destroy in the dream, then all it meansis that Shepard is free of their indoc attempt and they can try a new tactic.  If the ending is real then the star brat just shows Shepard a way to destroy both the Reapers AND itself, but essentially banks on Shepard choosing the other options, options that KILL shepard btw, only to save technology and other synthetics.  that seems like a gamble, something I would never expect a Reaper or an AI to take chances with.

So why is there a Destory option at all?  a more clever thing to do would be to offer the two choices only, but then make the player think about "wait a minute. I still have my gun.  why would they give me my gun if they didn't want me to use it on this part?  maybe there's a hidden third option I can choose to destroy the Reapers!"  if the endings were real then that would have been a more creative way to include destroy imo, and it would remove that ambiguous notion that maybe you killed all synthetics or maybe it was just the Reapers.

An interesting argument. If the reapers are the catalyst's solution and they've been going on for millenia with the sole purpose of continuing the cycle, why would the catalyst offer you the destroy option? Destroy the reapers, end the cycle, and as he says, allow synthetics to rise and rebel again, the one thing they've been trying to prevent with the cycles. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I suppose it could be argued the crucible allowed the option, as the crucible changed (yeah i know) the catalyst.

[Makrys]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Makrys wrote...

The Reapers are not 'mind readers'. They don't get into someone's mind to troll them. They get into your mind to CONTROL YOU. 

Nothing you said was based on lore or the codex. Nothing like that has ever happened before. "Hallucinations of ghostly presences", is a direct symptom of indoctrination, so excuse me if I'm the only one who thought the starchild looked ghostly.

White, holographic, and wispy. Don't know how much more ghostly you can look. That's my interpretation. I just take facts from the lore and apply them to what I saw in the ending. I don't need you to agree with me.

A plain hologram is ok, no need to get paranormal here. We're just in the 21st century here, and already we can almost "read" parts of the brain's reactions. Probing an organic's mind, if already the possibility to "control" the mind exists, does not require much different means than those required to "read the memory". If TIM was able to "salvage" Shepard's mind from death, even with a long time spent without oxygen, then I would easily believe that the Reapers, being so advanced as to have the possibility to kill the body but "save the mind" of the "ascended", could as easily "read the memory".

If you want to interpret it that way, sure...

It makes much more sense to me that they were trying to indoctrinate him, not read his mind.

[Golferguy758]

Dwailing wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Screw you guys.

I'll make my own Indoctrination theory, with black jack and hookers.

Actually, you know what? Forget the Indoctrination theory or the black jack!

Uh, Golferguy, you're not giving up on us now, are you?

With Blackjack and Hookers

OK, thanks for the explanation.  BTW, really funny clip.

Yea, I messed up the quote slightly. hadn't seen that episode in years.

Nah, not getting rid of me that easily.

[RoboticWater]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Wasn't that guy addicted to red sand?

Maybe drug and alcohol abusers are immune to indoctrination.

By god, this must mean the Intoxication Theory is correct!

[MegaSovereign]

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

EDI: Ninety percent refused to report their fellow prisoners. Indoctrination should have reduced that number to zero.

Shepard: Maybe word got out on how indoctrination worked. And they made a decision.

Uh, knowing the effects of indoctrination does not make you immune to it. Saren knew about indoctrination while he was being indoctrinated, look what happened to him. So did TIM.

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

Ya but if all else goes wrong then there is a gun in Shepard's hands so..." Wait aren't you in my head so does that mean we're connected Harby?'

Harby: Um... yes I think?"

Shepard: [ Smiles and put's the gun at the sied of his, or her head] I'll see you in hell Harby!

Harby:S**********************************.!

the screen goes black.

[Dwailing]

pirate1802 wrote...

I'm looking forward to how they explain Shepard being alive at the destroy ending, if they don't go for IT.

Uh, maybe they'll have him do this: 
  I hope they don't, but they just might.

[Golferguy758]

pirate1802 wrote...

I'm looking forward to how they explain Shepard being alive at the destroy ending, if they don't go for IT.

Oh you mean how he breathes in space? It's simple really. Shepard's alter-ego is:...

[Iconoclaste]

Arashi08 wrote...

In a way, it actually makes MORE sense that the ending isn't real if the Destroy option is offered, because if Shepard chooses Destroy in the dream, then all it meansis that Shepard is free of their indoc attempt and they can try a new tactic. If the ending is real then the star brat just shows Shepard a way to destroy both the Reapers AND itself, but essentially banks on Shepard choosing the other options, options that KILL shepard btw, only to save technology and other synthetics. that seems like a gamble, something I would never expect a Reaper or an AI to take chances with.

So why is there a Destory option at all? a more clever thing to do would be to offer the two choices only, but then make the player think about "wait a minute. I still have my gun. why would they give me my gun if they didn't want me to use it on this part? maybe there's a hidden third option I can choose to destroy the Reapers!" if the endings were real then that would have been a more creative way to include destroy imo, and it would remove that ambiguous notion that maybe you killed all synthetics or maybe it was just the Reapers.

You are taking for granted that if Bioware had chosen to give only 2 choices and no "destroy", they would have left Shepard with a gun. The Reapers could easily avoid Shepard's "escape" from the "dream" if they could easily have him killed.

[llbountyhunter]

MegaSovereign wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

How was grayson able to resisnt indoctrination??


The world may never know.....

Wasn't that guy addicted to red sand?

Maybe drug and alcohol abusers are immune to indoctrination.

No, because it was a red sand injection that finally made his will falter and succumd to indoctrination

[BatmanTurian]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

BatmanTurian said...
The others who resisted were already indoctrinated, had already given
in. Shepard hasn't given in until he chooses Control or Synthesis.
Therefore, it won't be momentary. Also Harbinger was obsessed with
Shepard throughout ME2 and Shepard is the leader of the resistant galaxy
fighting them. turning him gives them an incredible ally and would
destroy the galaxy's morale, making it easier and faster to reap.

[Makrys]

Someone answer me this... Casey, you'd be a good candidate.

Why are 'hallucinations of ghostly presences' even mentioned in the Codex if it is never exemplified within the games? Honestly. Why does that need to be said in the Codex if it never happens? As far as I know, most of the other examples of indoctrination symptoms the Codex explains happen at some point during the trilogy, but when has 'hallucinations of ghostly presences' apart from possibly the ending? Someone help me here?

Why is that significant?

[Bill Casey]

And yet ninety percent of the prisoner population still fought back...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juin 2012 - 03:39 .

[Gernbuster]

Makrys wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The IT is the only way the form the Catalyst takes on makes any sense. The IT explains that that scene was a dream, and so the Catalyst was really Harbinger in Shepard's mind. This can be inferred by playing the game and keeping IT in mind.

However, from the literal stand point, it makes no sense for the Catalyst to be the boy. It would force us to make up some scenario in which it could be explained. Basically, simply by playing that scene, it would be impossible to know how and why the Catalyst took the form of the child from Shepard's dreams. However, the IT explains it. Literal interpretation does not.

I disagree : this was addressed a few times, and did not need a far stretch of the mind to get a reasonable explanation in the "face value scenario". The Reapers can invade the mind, and I will not deny that they are playing their last cards with Shepard in the final scene. If the Reapers can play on someone's motivations, fears and desires, they surely can read some parts of his memory, and try to play the emotional card on Shepard by choosing to project themselves in the child's form. Showing themselves in the "Reaper" form would surely not have Shepard in the best state of mind towards the "Catalyst". Hence the suggestion of the "Destroy" possibility, being an honest assessment by the enemy being already "paralyzed" by the Crucible, and open to "negociate" a solution with Shepard.

The Reapers are not 'mind readers'. They don't get into someone's mind to troll them. They get into your mind to CONTROL YOU. 

Nothing you said was based on lore or the codex. Nothing like that has ever happened before. "Hallucinations of ghostly presences", is a direct symptom of indoctrination, so excuse me if I'm the only one who thought the starchild looked ghostly.

White, holographic, and wispy. Don't know how much more ghostly you can look. That's my interpretation. I just take facts from the lore and apply them to what I saw in the ending. I don't need you to agree with me.

Of course they read the mind of indoctrinated persons, Mass Effect novel 3.
It is all about how indoctrinaton works and how you know that you are indoctrinated.
Indoctrination is that dangerous, because the Reapers know everything about a indoctrinated species. One single victim knows much about the strength and weaknesses of species, the political situation. Settled systems, etc. Thats why its so important for them to indoctrinate people long time before they arrive. Like devices, which are the origin of TIMs indoctrination.

Modifié par Gernbuster, 24 juin 2012 - 03:40 .

[MegaSovereign]

Golferguy758 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I'm looking forward to how they explain Shepard being alive at the destroy ending, if they don't go for IT.

Oh you mean how he breathes in space? It's simple really. Shepard's alter-ego is:...

That explains so much.

Frieza survived the planet explosion.

Shepard survived the Citadel explosion.

Oh my god mind****.

[Dwailing]

MegaSovereign wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

How was grayson able to resisnt indoctrination??


The world may never know.....

Wasn't that guy addicted to red sand?

Maybe drug and alcohol abusers are immune to indoctrination.

Well, if that's true, then Shepard should be immune most definitely, considering that it's been made pretty clear by the last two games that he's an alcoholic. 

[Iconoclaste]

Makrys wrote...
If you want to interpret it that way, sure...

It makes much more sense to me that they were trying to indoctrinate him, not read his mind.

The point is that, indoctrination or not, the Reapers CAN access the mind. For them to "succeed" in influencing the target is another story altogether.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 24 juin 2012 - 03:41 .

[EpyonX3]

Golferguy758 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I'm looking forward to how they explain Shepard being alive at the destroy ending, if they don't go for IT.

Oh you mean how he breathes in space? It's simple really. Shepard's alter-ego is:...

"But space is a Vac-um"

Let's see who gets the reference.

[MegaSovereign]

They can never control Shepard, because his alcohol addiction already controls him.

[llbountyhunter]

llbountyhunter wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

How was grayson able to resisnt indoctrination??


The world may never know.....

Wasn't that guy addicted to red sand?

Maybe drug and alcohol abusers are immune to indoctrination.

No, because it was a red sand injection that finally made his will falter and succumd to indoctrination

[Arashi08]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I'm looking forward to how they explain Shepard being alive at the destroy ending, if they don't go for IT.

Oh you mean how he breathes in space? It's simple really. Shepard's alter-ego is:...

"But space is a Vac-um"

Let's see who gets the reference.

DBZTAS, of course   unless that was a reference to something else lol

[Bill Casey]

Dwailing wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

How was grayson able to resisnt indoctrination??


The world may never know.....

Wasn't that guy addicted to red sand?

Maybe drug and alcohol abusers are immune to indoctrination.

Well, if that's true, then Shepard should be immune most definitely, considering that it's been made pretty clear by the last two games that he's an alcoholic. 

They had to give Paul Grayson the red sand to weaken his resolve...