55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Iconoclaste]

Makrys wrote...

Someone answer me this... Casey, you'd be a good candidate.

Why are 'hallucinations of ghostly presences' even mentioned in the Codex if it is never exemplified within the games? Honestly. Why does that need to be said in the Codex if it never happens? As far as I know, most of the other examples of indoctrination symptoms the Codex explains happen at some point during the trilogy, but when has 'hallucinations of ghostly presences' apart from possibly the ending? Someone help me here? Why is that
significant?

In ME2, in the scientist's logs (derelict Reaper mission?).

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 24 juin 2012 - 03:43 .

[masster blaster]

MegaSovereign wrote...

They can never control Shepard, because his alcohol addiction already controls him.

Plus Shepard's dance moves.

Modifié par masster blaster, 24 juin 2012 - 03:44 .

[Arashi08]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

In a way, it actually makes MORE sense that the ending isn't real if the Destroy option is offered, because if Shepard chooses Destroy in the dream, then all it meansis that Shepard is free of their indoc attempt and they can try a new tactic. If the ending is real then the star brat just shows Shepard a way to destroy both the Reapers AND itself, but essentially banks on Shepard choosing the other options, options that KILL shepard btw, only to save technology and other synthetics. that seems like a gamble, something I would never expect a Reaper or an AI to take chances with.

So why is there a Destory option at all? a more clever thing to do would be to offer the two choices only, but then make the player think about "wait a minute. I still have my gun. why would they give me my gun if they didn't want me to use it on this part? maybe there's a hidden third option I can choose to destroy the Reapers!" if the endings were real then that would have been a more creative way to include destroy imo, and it would remove that ambiguous notion that maybe you killed all synthetics or maybe it was just the Reapers.

You are taking for granted that if Bioware had chosen to give only 2 choices and no "destroy", they would have left Shepard with a gun. The Reapers could easily avoid Shepard's "escape" from the "dream" if they could easily have him killed.

Except they don't want Shepard dead, they want Shepard.

[Dwailing]

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Heh, I thought I was going to be off for the night, but I just had one more thing to share. I've just started replaying Half-Life, and that made me think, "Gee, this is how you make a game where you're going to make certain elements of the story ambiguous (Not my exact thoughts, but that's basically what I was thinking)." I mean seriously, Valve never gave us all the answers in Half-Life 1 or 2, but they did it in a way that didn't make people go bat-crap crazy. That's the way you tell a story without revealing everything, that's the way you encourage speculation. Not by making an ending that has no closure and is thematically revolting, but by making it plain from the beginning that you're never going to get ALL of the answers.

Just bumping this.  Not sure if it's discussion worthy, but I figured it was worth sharing.

Seriously, I would appreciate it if someone would comment on this, if only to tell me to stop asking people to comment on this. 

[Bill Casey]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Oh you mean how he breathes in space? It's simple really.

"But space is a Vac-um"

EDI: But moral decisions shouldn't be made in a vacuum...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 juin 2012 - 03:46 .

[EpyonX3]

Arashi08 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I'm looking forward to how they explain Shepard being alive at the destroy ending, if they don't go for IT.

Oh you mean how he breathes in space? It's simple really. Shepard's alter-ego is:...

"But space is a Vac-um"

Let's see who gets the reference.

DBZTAS, of course   unless that was a reference to something else lol

Where else? lol

[Dwailing]

masster blaster wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

They can never control Shepard, because his alcohol addiction already controls him.

Plus Shepard's dance moves.

No comment. 

[Iconoclaste]

Arashi08 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

In a way, it actually makes MORE sense that the ending isn't real if the Destroy option is offered, because if Shepard chooses Destroy in the dream, then all it meansis that Shepard is free of their indoc attempt and they can try a new tactic. If the ending is real then the star brat just shows Shepard a way to destroy both the Reapers AND itself, but essentially banks on Shepard choosing the other options, options that KILL shepard btw, only to save technology and other synthetics. that seems like a gamble, something I would never expect a Reaper or an AI to take chances with.

So why is there a Destory option at all? a more clever thing to do would be to offer the two choices only, but then make the player think about "wait a minute. I still have my gun. why would they give me my gun if they didn't want me to use it on this part? maybe there's a hidden third option I can choose to destroy the Reapers!" if the endings were real then that would have been a more creative way to include destroy imo, and it would remove that ambiguous notion that maybe you killed all synthetics or maybe it was just the Reapers.

You are taking for granted that if Bioware had chosen to give only 2 choices and no "destroy", they would have left Shepard with a gun. The Reapers could easily avoid Shepard's "escape" from the "dream" if they could easily have him killed.

Except they don't want Shepard dead, they want Shepard.

Do you suggest they are willing to risk failure to indoc Shepard and allow him to wake up in London, so he may have a chance to get the Crucible in place?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 24 juin 2012 - 03:47 .

[Gernbuster]

Makrys wrote...

Someone answer me this... Casey, you'd be a good candidate.

Why are 'hallucinations of ghostly presences' even mentioned in the Codex if it is never exemplified within the games? Honestly. Why does that need to be said in the Codex if it never happens? As far as I know, most of the other examples of indoctrination symptoms the Codex explains happen at some point during the trilogy, but when has 'hallucinations of ghostly presences' apart from possibly the ending? Someone help me here?

Why is that significant?

Guess, if IT is true, they didn't want to show everyone "hey guys we try to indoctrinate you from now on." and of course they would`t put anything in to absolutly proof it, if they attempted to let the players discuss about it.
I the boy indicates very much towards IT, but once again they definitly didn't want everyone from the very beginning to understand a possible IT ending.

[MegaSovereign]

They had to give Paul Grayson the red sand to weaken his resolve..

That's ****ing hilarious.

[BatmanTurian]

Bill Casey wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Oh you mean how he breathes in space? It's simple really.

"But space is a Vac-um"

EDI: But moral decisions shouldn't be made in a vacuum...

[Vaya]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

[Gernbuster]

MegaSovereign wrote...

They had to give Paul Grayson the red sand to weaken his resolve..

That's ****ing hilarious.

And we know adrenalin is much more effective. Is there any possebility to get more adrenalin into your blood, then facing his own death in Reaper laser canon style?

[thisisme8]

BatmanTurian wrote...

A) he can't be. A Catalyst isn't changed by the reaction and he's associated with a cybernetic race of deceitful, manipulative, selfish, and needlessly cruel machines.

Yeah, to procreate, that's all they care about.

C) if you choose synthesis or control or destroy, the endings you see are shepard imagining hopeful things, or the Reapers feeding him more illusion. The only thing real is the Breath. The cycle will not have ended because the battle is still going on around Shepard while Shepard is still fighting the reapers in his mind.

A)  That's projection.  The reapers aren't deceitful, selfish, nor needlessly cruel.  They never displayed any of those.  Manipulation via indoctrination, yes, but control is not deceipt.  Even when controlling TIM and Saren they never deceived them into thinking they were going to do anything but continue the cycle.  TIM's indoctrination, while subtle, was to subvert Shepard.  Never once did they lie to him and say they were anything they weren't.  They also believed in what they were doing and did not kill or harvest to be cruel, but because that was their answer to preservation.

  Procreation is a means.  To see it as the end is shortsighted.  Their goal was to continue the cycle.

C)  This goes along with A and is completely out of character for reapers.  Harbinger never lied to Shepard, Sovereign never lied to Shepard.  None of them saw the need to because their mission was (to them at least) absolute and above debate.  So to give Shepard a dream where he ended the cycle seems far fetched.

[BatmanTurian]

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

posting this again because people must have missed it.

BatmanTurian said...
The others who resisted were already indoctrinated, had already given in. Shepard hasn't given in until he chooses Control or Synthesis. Therefore, it won't be momentary. Also Harbinger was obsessed with Shepard throughout ME2and Shepard is the leader of the resistant galaxy fighting them. turning him gives them an incredible ally and would destroy the galaxy's morale, making it easier and faster to reap.

[MegaSovereign]

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

He wasn't rejecting indoctrination. He had doubts, but his mind was still owned by Sovereign.

[DirtyPhoenix]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

EDI: Ninety percent refused to report their fellow prisoners. Indoctrination should have reduced that number to zero.

Shepard: Maybe word got out on how indoctrination worked. And they made a decision.

Uh, knowing the effects of indoctrination does not make you immune to it. Saren knew about indoctrination while he was being indoctrinated, look what happened to him. So did TIM.

There's another example of knowledgable people falling to Indoc's prey: Kenson. She knew about indoctrination and yet fell for it. Anyone can break free of indoctrination if they realise they're being messed with. (I think) Otherwise it's too late. Saren didn't realise this, even with his knowledge on indoctrination. He believed Sovereign "needed" his help, and it was a mutually beneficial relationship. If Shepard (the player) realises they are being indoctrinated they can break free before it is too late. Otherwise they become fully indoctrinated and become the next saren. As to why the Reapers simply don't kill Shep? "Why destroy something when you can use it". Sounds familiar?

[Iconoclaste]

Vaya wrote...

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

I point out that Shiala was not indoctrinated by Reapers, so that would not apply to the subject. I suppose that, since the Thorian was destroyed, his influence disappeared by itself. If the Reaper controlling a subject is destroyed, it should also release its grasp on the victim. Is that a reasonable assumption?

Saren committed suicide, I don't think it shows he would have been able to "resist" the indoc more than the time needed to do hara-kiri.

[Bill Casey]

thisisme8 wrote...

A)  That's projection.  The reapers aren't deceitful, selfish, nor needlessly cruel.  They never displayed any of those.

bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

[BatmanTurian]

thisisme8 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

A) he can't be. A Catalyst isn't changed by the reaction and he's associated with a cybernetic race of deceitful, manipulative, selfish, and needlessly cruel machines.

Yeah, to procreate, that's all they care about.

C) if you choose synthesis or control or destroy, the endings you see are shepard imagining hopeful things, or the Reapers feeding him more illusion. The only thing real is the Breath. The cycle will not have ended because the battle is still going on around Shepard while Shepard is still fighting the reapers in his mind.

A)  That's projection.  The reapers aren't deceitful, selfish, nor needlessly cruel.  They never displayed any of those.  Manipulation via indoctrination, yes, but control is not deceipt.  Even when controlling TIM and Saren they never deceived them into thinking they were going to do anything but continue the cycle.  TIM's indoctrination, while subtle, was to subvert Shepard.  Never once did they lie to him and say they were anything they weren't.  They also believed in what they were doing and did not kill or harvest to be cruel, but because that was their answer to preservation.

  Procreation is a means.  To see it as the end is shortsighted.  Their goal was to continue the cycle.

C)  This goes along with A and is completely out of character for reapers.  Harbinger never lied to Shepard, Sovereign never lied to Shepard.  None of them saw the need to because their mission was (to them at least) absolute and above debate.  So to give Shepard a dream where he ended the cycle seems far fetched.

A) you're in denial. They kill people and turn them into slurpees to make more Reapers, not even saving the conciousness of millions. They take the dead and turn them into shock troops as husks. They manipulate through indoctrination.

The cycle is procreation.

C) You have no evidence to back this up and there is no reason for your enemy to be honest with you. EVER.

[Starbuck8]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

That is honestly hard to answer (others above me have made good points about precedents), but the whole ME story is supposed to be about the fact that there's something special about Shepard. But anway, I would ask you this: In a literalist POV, how is Shepard able to end the reaper threat? What makes him/her so special?

Modifié par Starbuck8, 24 juin 2012 - 03:55 .

[MegaSovereign]

Bill Casey wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

A)  That's projection.  The reapers aren't deceitful, selfish, nor needlessly cruel.  They never displayed any of those.

bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

The reapers are the good guys:
social.bioware.com/%25252520http:/social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/We-represent-order-Reaper-support-thread-12652060-1.html

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 24 juin 2012 - 03:56 .

[BatmanTurian]

Bill Casey wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

A)  That's projection.  The reapers aren't deceitful, selfish, nor needlessly cruel.  They never displayed any of those.

bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

I know, right? It's like he didn't even play the same game we did. It's like an alternate universe where humans are evil and the Reapers are the innocent victims.

[Gernbuster]

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.