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[BatmanTurian]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

A)  That's projection.  The reapers aren't deceitful, selfish, nor needlessly cruel.  They never displayed any of those.

bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

The reapers are the good guys:
social.bioware.com/%25252520http:/social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/We-represent-order-Reaper-support-thread-12652060-1.html

You best be trollin'

[Wolfram Tarant]

Dwailing wrote...

Heh, I thought I was going to be off for the night, but I just had one more thing to share. I've just started replaying Half-Life, and that made me think, "Gee, this is how you make a game where you're going to make certain elements of the story ambiguous (Not my exact thoughts, but that's basically what I was thinking)." I mean seriously, Valve never gave us all the answers in Half-Life 1 or 2, but they did it in a way that didn't make people go bat-crap crazy. That's the way you tell a story without revealing everything, that's the way you encourage speculation. Not by making an ending that has no closure and is thematically revolting, but by making it plain from the beginning that you're never going to get ALL of the answers.

Uh yeah... I can't resist chiming in here. Half-Life's story is flawless. Every detail is perfect regardless of how many questions it raises/answers. It constantly teases you with questions which may or may not ever be answered, but instead of enraging the entire fanbase, it lures you in even more. And yes, the fan speculation on Half-Life's story is the most interesting I've ever seen. What's so fun about Half-Life is that you're working backwards for answers. Each time you're thrust into some strange new situation and you just have to figure it out from there. Brilliant, Valve never disappoints

[MegaSovereign]

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

A)  That's projection.  The reapers aren't deceitful, selfish, nor needlessly cruel.  They never displayed any of those.

bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

The reapers are the good guys:
social.bioware.com/%25252520http:/social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/We-represent-order-Reaper-support-thread-12652060-1.html

You best be trollin'

The reapers have held the line for millions of years.

Know your place, organic.

[Vaya]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

He wasn't rejecting indoctrination. He had doubts, but his mind was still owned by Sovereign.

From the conversation at the end of ME1, its fairly clear that after Saren's confrontation with Shepard on Virmire, Shepard somehow weakened the indoctrination, sowed doubt in Sarens mind, and counteracted the effect of indoctrination and why Saren was "fixed" with implants. And this is while Saren is riding around inside of a reaper. Reaper indoctrination isnt perfect, it has alot of limitations. Its made clear that its limited, just not what the exact mechanics of it are. 

[BatmanTurian]

okay, I'm out. You guys take over. I'd think I'd made some sense typing into this thing, but it's as if I'm typing gibberish to some people.

EDIT: plus it's late and I'm tired of arguing the same points over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 24 juin 2012 - 04:01 .

[Arashi08]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

In a way, it actually makes MORE sense that the ending isn't real if the Destroy option is offered, because if Shepard chooses Destroy in the dream, then all it meansis that Shepard is free of their indoc attempt and they can try a new tactic. If the ending is real then the star brat just shows Shepard a way to destroy both the Reapers AND itself, but essentially banks on Shepard choosing the other options, options that KILL shepard btw, only to save technology and other synthetics. that seems like a gamble, something I would never expect a Reaper or an AI to take chances with.

So why is there a Destory option at all? a more clever thing to do would be to offer the two choices only, but then make the player think about "wait a minute. I still have my gun. why would they give me my gun if they didn't want me to use it on this part? maybe there's a hidden third option I can choose to destroy the Reapers!" if the endings were real then that would have been a more creative way to include destroy imo, and it would remove that ambiguous notion that maybe you killed all synthetics or maybe it was just the Reapers.

You are taking for granted that if Bioware had chosen to give only 2 choices and no "destroy", they would have left Shepard with a gun. The Reapers could easily avoid Shepard's "escape" from the "dream" if they could easily have him killed.

Except they don't want Shepard dead, they want Shepard.

Do you suggest they are willing to risk failure to indoc Shepard and allow him to wake up in London, so he may have a chance to get the Crucible in place?

Depends on how they feel about their chances of success.  the Reapers are prideful and if they think they've won they will remain confident.  even with over 4000 EMS the allied fleet is pretty much outnumbered 3 to 1 by dreadnought count and the Reapers have superior technology.  if they feel the Indoctrinating Shepard will give them a chance to demoralize the allied forces even more and secure their victory then, Yes, I think they would risk it because as they see it, there isn't much risk.  Harbinger likely wants Shepard for the human Reaper, so if Harby's the one in charge, as IT suggests then he will likely try and accomplish this if he believes the Reapers will win.  

That same pride doesn't come into play during that final scene, as Shepard is pretty much a few shots away from destroying them for good if the endings are literal, but at this stage they will still gamble with Shepard's choices, especially when Shepard is proven to be strong-willed?  If Shepard breaks free of the Indoc attempt however, the Reapers have a chance to change their tactics, maybe they can decide Shepard is too strong-willed to control.

And of course, if the endings are a dream, then we still don't know what the Crucible does.  Many people on the thread have speculated about it's true purpose.  Rastilin (spelling?) and I suggested that it was a power source that allows organics to forcibly open the relay to Dark Space, where perhaps there is a Reaper base that can be targeted that may make the Reapers vulnerable.  no evidence for this but it was just an idea

in short, if the Reapers think they have the advantage, yes they could take the risk.  when Shepard has their very existence in his/her hands?  seems VERY unlikely imo.

[DirtyPhoenix]

[quote]BatmanTurian wrote...


[/quote]

A) you're in denial. They kill people and turn them into slurpees to make more Reapers, not even saving the conciousness of millions. They take the dead and turn them into shock troops as husks. They manipulate through indoctrination.



[/quote]

And when not doing any of these they are busy unleashing the Rachni.

[Arashi08]

Gernbuster wrote...

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.

 Agree with everything except 4 as ME: Deception stated that Grayson was the test case for Reaper tech in a human body and it took place AFTER ME2. not to mention what EDI stated about Cerberus regulations regarding "untested alien technology"

Edit: it was Retribution, not Deception

Modifié par Arashi08, 24 juin 2012 - 04:17 .

[Big G13]

BatmanTurian wrote...

okay, I'm out. You guys take over. I'd think I'd made some sense typing into this thing, but it's as if I'm typing gibberish to some people.

EDIT: plus it's late and I'm tired of arguing the same points over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

AllworkandnoplaymakesJackadullboy. Allwork and no playmakesJack adull boy, all workand no playmakes Jacka dull boy. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. AllworkandnoplaymakesJackadullboy. 

[BatmanTurian]

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.

 Agree with everything except 4 as ME: Deception stated that Grayson was the test case for Reaper tech in a human body and it took place AFTER ME2. not to mention what EDI stated about Cerberus regulations regarding "untested alien technology"

Sorry, gotta jump back in real quick and say that Deception is not considered canon.

[Gernbuster]

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.

 Agree with everything except 4 as ME: Deception stated that Grayson was the test case for Reaper tech in a human body and it took place AFTER ME2. not to mention what EDI stated about Cerberus regulations regarding "untested alien technology"

Yes, absolutly true, ^^ finally somebody who read the books.
But who said its the same sort of implants? TIM got them inside his own body for 20 years.
Surely he was researching them. Maybe he was able to reproduce them.
And finally there is still no different VALID explanation, how Cerberus was able to bring somebody dead back to live.

[Dwailing]

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Heh, I thought I was going to be off for the night, but I just had one more thing to share. I've just started replaying Half-Life, and that made me think, "Gee, this is how you make a game where you're going to make certain elements of the story ambiguous (Not my exact thoughts, but that's basically what I was thinking)." I mean seriously, Valve never gave us all the answers in Half-Life 1 or 2, but they did it in a way that didn't make people go bat-crap crazy. That's the way you tell a story without revealing everything, that's the way you encourage speculation. Not by making an ending that has no closure and is thematically revolting, but by making it plain from the beginning that you're never going to get ALL of the answers.

Uh yeah... I can't resist chiming in here. Half-Life's story is flawless. Every detail is perfect regardless of how many questions it raises/answers. It constantly teases you with questions which may or may not ever be answered, but instead of enraging the entire fanbase, it lures you in even more. And yes, the fan speculation on Half-Life's story is the most interesting I've ever seen. What's so fun about Half-Life is that you're working backwards for answers. Each time you're thrust into some strange new situation and you just have to figure it out from there. Brilliant, Valve never disappoints

Thank you for commenting! 

[Dwailing]

Well, I'm back off for the night. I'll see you all later.

[thisisme8]

BatmanTurian wrote...

A) you're in denial. They kill people and turn them into slurpees to make more Reapers, not even saving the conciousness of millions. They take the dead and turn them into shock troops as husks. They manipulate through indoctrination.

The cycle is procreation.

C) You have no evidence to back this up and there is no reason for your enemy to be honest with you. EVER.

Am I?  Sure, what they do is cruel from our perspective, but they keep saying that to them, this is the only hope for human survival.  This goes along with B.  You keep saying that making babies is the point of the reapers, but you completely ignore the reason they harvest organics:  Preservation.  They aren't concerned with making more reapers because they want the reapers to live on, they make reapers out of organics because they want the organics to live on.

Regarding C:  You have no evidence to refute it.  Show me once where a reaper has lied.  One time.

I'm not being sympathetic to reapers by saying they aren't cruel and that they couldn't lie, I'm just pointing out that you can't assume the Catalyst is lying to Shepard to convince him to do something when it is all based off of projections that go against everything we've seen from reapers in three games.

[Wolfram Tarant]

@Dwailing Yeah no problem haha. See you

[Riot86]

Gernbuster wrote...

3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

Sometimes I wonder if people fell asleep during their playthrough of the series as so many seem to miss such important plot points...

It is stated several times thoughout the entire series, that Shepard is "remarkably strong-willed". This is in fact a key aspect of the main story. Without his strong will, without him being special, his brain would have been most likely been fried after getting in contact with the beacon on Eden Prime. And remember, it was Liara who said the quote above - and if the daughter of Benezia seems that impressed with a person's willpower, I guess we can assume that even by Asari standards Shepard is unique in some way.

So, yeah...we HAVE an explanation, why Shepard might be able to resist Indoctrination.

Modifié par Riot86, 24 juin 2012 - 04:16 .

[Arashi08]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.

 Agree with everything except 4 as ME: Deception stated that Grayson was the test case for Reaper tech in a human body and it took place AFTER ME2. not to mention what EDI stated about Cerberus regulations regarding "untested alien technology"

Sorry, gotta jump back in real quick and say that Deception is not considered canon.

I'm thinking of the wrong one actually, it was Retribution I was talking about lol

[Starbuck8]

thisisme8 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

A) you're in denial. They kill people and turn them into slurpees to make more Reapers, not even saving the conciousness of millions. They take the dead and turn them into shock troops as husks. They manipulate through indoctrination.

The cycle is procreation.

C) You have no evidence to back this up and there is no reason for your enemy to be honest with you. EVER.

Am I?  Sure, what they do is cruel from our perspective, but they keep saying that to them, this is the only hope for human survival.  This goes along with B.  You keep saying that making babies is the point of the reapers, but you completely ignore the reason they harvest organics:  Preservation.  They aren't concerned with making more reapers because they want the reapers to live on, they make reapers out of organics because they want the organics to live on.

Regarding C:  You have no evidence to refute it.  Show me once where a reaper has lied.  One time.

I'm not being sympathetic to reapers by saying they aren't cruel and that they couldn't lie, I'm just pointing out that you can't assume the Catalyst is lying to Shepard to convince him to do something when it is all based off of projections that go against everything we've seen from reapers in three games.

To believe that, that means you really believe what the star kid says. The created will ALWAYS rebel against their creator. We need to be saved from the AI we create and preserved in reaper form. But we have proof within our own cycle that organics and synthetics can get along just fine...

[Gernbuster]

Riot86 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

Sometimes I wonder if people fell asleep during their playthrough of the series as so many seem to miss such important plot points...

It is stated several times thoughout the entire series, that Shepard is "remarkably strong-willed". This is in fact a key aspect of the main story. Without his strong will, without him being special, his brain would have been most likely been fried after getting in contact with the beacon on Eden Prime. And remember, it was Liara who said the quote above - and if the daughter of Benezia seems that impressed with a person's willpower, I guess we can assume that even by Asari standards Shepard is unique in some way.

So, yeah...we HAVE an explanation, why Shepard might be able to resist Indoctrination.

Common, you are the literalist, pls don't use interpretation arguments.
Btw, indoctrination is working like a virus which can't get blocked, because there is no firewall. Will is only working like a antivirus.
1. You need to get aware of it.
2. You need to stop it getting stronger, isolate it.
3.Deleate it.

And sorry mate, but if you don't get aware of it, there are two possebilities, either you get indoctrinated, or you haven t got the virus.
Anyway as long as Shepard doesn't get any sort of alarm inside his head....I don't know.... somethink like dreams, or things the brain is normally using to .....WAIT.


Of course Shepard can overcome indoctrination, he is the hero and its an video game, but don't you think it wouldn't be much less difficult to explain why is not getting indoctrinated, by using other arguments, then Shepard you are the person with the highest will power in the galaxy, that high even ancient super races can't harm that?

Modifié par Gernbuster, 24 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[Arashi08]

Gernbuster wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.

 Agree with everything except 4 as ME: Deception stated that Grayson was the test case for Reaper tech in a human body and it took place AFTER ME2. not to mention what EDI stated about Cerberus regulations regarding "untested alien technology"

Yes, absolutly true, ^^ finally somebody who read the books.
But who said its the same sort of implants? TIM got them inside his own body for 20 years.
Surely he was researching them. Maybe he was able to reproduce them.
And finally there is still no different VALID explanation, how Cerberus was able to bring somebody dead back to live.

I didn't read them actually...too broke at the time to waste cash on books lol
Reaper tech is Reaper tech, no real way around it and I don't think they'd risk giving Shepard Reaper implants when there is a chance they could indoctrinate her, they wanted Shepard on THEIR side not the Reapers.' 

And of course, Dr.Chakwas has the ability to scan Shepard's implants and determine how they are affecting her body, so I could assume she would be able to tell if there were nanomachines inside Shepard altering her biological chemistry.  To me they seem like advanced, yet still conventional tech they used to accelerate Shepard's revival, but not much more than that.

[Domanese]

(Reposting so that the person in question sees this.)

thisisme8 wrote...

My own problem with IT is really the reasoning behind it. Why would the Catalyst need to lie to Shepard? Would an AI, although capable, lie while conceding at the same time? The cycle is over, so there is no need to tell Shepard that he is not indoctrinated, but he still goes so far as to say he is not. Unless IT's true meaning is the indoctrination of the player, and not Shepard. But still, the cycle is over.

Well the line of thinking for an ITer is this as a general statement. (At least it applies to me anyway)

First and Foremost, if the Catalyst is as he says he is a Catalyst, he cannot say for example the Crucible changed him and opened up new possiblities because thats not how a Catalyst works. He defies the very nature of what a Catalyst is. How can he as an AI or even as intellect make that statement unless he lied about being the Catalyst in the first place?

Secondly the wording he chooses to describe himself. He keeps saying after "I am the Catalyst", we, us and constantly refers to his kind as the answer to the problem of organic life. This is strikingly similar to a reapers line of thinking. To be more exact, it's Harbinger's line of thinking. He sees himself as a god like entity and the solution and final evolution of all organic life.

Third, he is trying to convince us within the last ten minutes that the Reapers serve some kind of noble purpose in life, and that they need to exist. The reapers entire goal is nothing but self preservation, their existence and adding to their numbers is all they care about. We have for the past three games continued along the logic of the Reapers needing to be destroyed and wiped out. Hell it's been Shepards driving motivation regardless of Paragon or Renegade options you take. Now all of a sudden this new offer is made by a suspicious entity claiming to be the Catalyst and trying to argue that your goal that has been the focus of the entire saga is wrong.

The conclusion we have reached from the IT stand point is that this final ten minutes is actually a battle at the center of the mind and that the final boss is Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Rather then it being an actual battle in the physical world like th human reaper Bioware took the route of seeing how well you remembered everything up to this point and tested your resolve as Commander Shepard.

Asfor the Catalyst himself, the reason why he would act this way is that he is not the Catalyst but actually Harbinger posing as this god like AI that claims to be the creator of the Reapers, lying to you that there are better ways. He's trying to turn you the player as Shepard to the reapers line of thinking. That they need to exist. Two out of three options allow the Reapers to live.

[thisisme8]

Starbuck8 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

A) you're in denial. They kill people and turn them into slurpees to make more Reapers, not even saving the conciousness of millions. They take the dead and turn them into shock troops as husks. They manipulate through indoctrination.

The cycle is procreation.

C) You have no evidence to back this up and there is no reason for your enemy to be honest with you. EVER.

Am I?  Sure, what they do is cruel from our perspective, but they keep saying that to them, this is the only hope for human survival.  This goes along with B.  You keep saying that making babies is the point of the reapers, but you completely ignore the reason they harvest organics:  Preservation.  They aren't concerned with making more reapers because they want the reapers to live on, they make reapers out of organics because they want the organics to live on.

Regarding C:  You have no evidence to refute it.  Show me once where a reaper has lied.  One time.

I'm not being sympathetic to reapers by saying they aren't cruel and that they couldn't lie, I'm just pointing out that you can't assume the Catalyst is lying to Shepard to convince him to do something when it is all based off of projections that go against everything we've seen from reapers in three games.

To believe that, that means you really believe what the star kid says. The created will ALWAYS rebel against their creator. We need to be saved from the AI we create and preserved in reaper form. But we have proof within our own cycle that organics and synthetics can get along just fine...

First off:  The Catalyst believes that there is no hope for co-existence between creator and created.  But when proven wrong, can't deny it since it doesn't have the emotional capacity to.
Second:  Wouldn't that proof be the reason the Catalyst decided to end the cycle?

Basically what you are saying is:
So the end is just what it says it is?  The Catalyst sees that there can be co-existance so it decides to end the cycle...?

[Riot86]

Gernbuster wrote...

Common, you are the literalist, pls don't use interpretation arguments.
*snip*

Wait...what?

Did I not understand your argument or did you misunderstood my post? I'm confused now ^^

Modifié par Riot86, 24 juin 2012 - 04:29 .

[Gernbuster]

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.

 Agree with everything except 4 as ME: Deception stated that Grayson was the test case for Reaper tech in a human body and it took place AFTER ME2. not to mention what EDI stated about Cerberus regulations regarding "untested alien technology"

Yes, absolutly true, ^^ finally somebody who read the books.
But who said its the same sort of implants? TIM got them inside his own body for 20 years.
Surely he was researching them. Maybe he was able to reproduce them.
And finally there is still no different VALID explanation, how Cerberus was able to bring somebody dead back to live.

I didn't read them actually...too broke at the time to waste cash on books lol
Reaper tech is Reaper tech, no real way around it and I don't think they'd risk giving Shepard Reaper implants when there is a chance they could indoctrinate her, they wanted Shepard on THEIR side not the Reapers.' 

And of course, Dr.Chakwas has the ability to scan Shepard's implants and determine how they are affecting her body, so I could assume she would be able to tell if there were nanomachines inside Shepard altering her biological chemistry.  To me they seem like advanced, yet still conventional tech they used to accelerate Shepard's revival, but not much more than that.

Thats all only your or mine interpretation.

we can t really say its true or not, because nobody knows how Reaper implants work, in all variations and we can't say if Cerberus would, t use Reaper tech for their own goal, especially if this might be the only chance to bring Shep back to live AND we can't say whats the clue with TIMs implants.
This theory is working like the IT, there is no proof against it, sounds valid to some people, sounds odd to some others.

If I would need to argue against it I would say. The implants are a new unknown tech, which is fact. Invented by Cerberus or Reapers is irrelevant right now. Chakwas can scan it, but I can't remember any moment in the game when she is saying the understands the implants, or something like that. Basicly it is completly arround, she knows from her scans that stress does something with the implants and ...yea they break through your face.
From the novels and games, we know that Reapertech can actually resurect dead flesh and that Reaper implants heal even very deadly wounds.

Modifié par Gernbuster, 24 juin 2012 - 04:37 .

[thisisme8]

Domanese wrote...

(Reposting so that the person in question sees this.)

thisisme8 wrote...

My own problem with IT is really the reasoning behind it. Why would the Catalyst need to lie to Shepard? Would an AI, although capable, lie while conceding at the same time? The cycle is over, so there is no need to tell Shepard that he is not indoctrinated, but he still goes so far as to say he is not. Unless IT's true meaning is the indoctrination of the player, and not Shepard. But still, the cycle is over.

Well the line of thinking for an ITer is this as a general statement. (At least it applies to me anyway)

First and Foremost, if the Catalyst is as he says he is a Catalyst, he cannot say for example the Crucible changed him and opened up new possiblities because thats not how a Catalyst works. He defies the very nature of what a Catalyst is. How can he as an AI or even as intellect make that statement unless he lied about being the Catalyst in the first place?

Secondly the wording he chooses to describe himself. He keeps saying after "I am the Catalyst", we, us and constantly refers to his kind as the answer to the problem of organic life. This is strikingly similar to a reapers line of thinking. To be more exact, it's Harbinger's line of thinking. He sees himself as a god like entity and the solution and final evolution of all organic life.

Third, he is trying to convince us within the last ten minutes that the Reapers serve some kind of noble purpose in life, and that they need to exist. The reapers entire goal is nothing but self preservation, their existence and adding to their numbers is all they care about. We have for the past three games continued along the logic of the Reapers needing to be destroyed and wiped out. Hell it's been Shepards driving motivation regardless of Paragon or Renegade options you take. Now all of a sudden this new offer is made by a suspicious entity claiming to be the Catalyst and trying to argue that your goal that has been the focus of the entire saga is wrong.

The conclusion we have reached from the IT stand point is that this final ten minutes is actually a battle at the center of the mind and that the final boss is Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Rather then it being an actual battle in the physical world like th human reaper Bioware took the route of seeing how well you remembered everything up to this point and tested your resolve as Commander Shepard.

Asfor the Catalyst himself, the reason why he would act this way is that he is not the Catalyst but actually Harbinger posing as this god like AI that claims to be the creator of the Reapers, lying to you that there are better ways. He's trying to turn you the player as Shepard to the reapers line of thinking. That they need to exist. Two out of three options allow the Reapers to live.

I saw this post and replied to it (not sure if I quoted it) somewhere in the last 5 pages.