55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Big G13]

Domanese wrote...

(Reposting so that the person in question sees this.)

thisisme8 wrote...

My own problem with IT is really the reasoning behind it. Why would the Catalyst need to lie to Shepard? Would an AI, although capable, lie while conceding at the same time? The cycle is over, so there is no need to tell Shepard that he is not indoctrinated, but he still goes so far as to say he is not. Unless IT's true meaning is the indoctrination of the player, and not Shepard. But still, the cycle is over.

Well the line of thinking for an ITer is this as a general statement. (At least it applies to me anyway)

First and Foremost, if the Catalyst is as he says he is a Catalyst, he cannot say for example the Crucible changed him and opened up new possiblities because thats not how a Catalyst works. He defies the very nature of what a Catalyst is. How can he as an AI or even as intellect make that statement unless he lied about being the Catalyst in the first place?

Secondly the wording he chooses to describe himself. He keeps saying after "I am the Catalyst", we, us and constantly refers to his kind as the answer to the problem of organic life. This is strikingly similar to a reapers line of thinking. To be more exact, it's Harbinger's line of thinking. He sees himself as a god like entity and the solution and final evolution of all organic life.

Third, he is trying to convince us within the last ten minutes that the Reapers serve some kind of noble purpose in life, and that they need to exist. The reapers entire goal is nothing but self preservation, their existence and adding to their numbers is all they care about. We have for the past three games continued along the logic of the Reapers needing to be destroyed and wiped out. Hell it's been Shepards driving motivation regardless of Paragon or Renegade options you take. Now all of a sudden this new offer is made by a suspicious entity claiming to be the Catalyst and trying to argue that your goal that has been the focus of the entire saga is wrong.

The conclusion we have reached from the IT stand point is that this final ten minutes is actually a battle at the center of the mind and that the final boss is Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Rather then it being an actual battle in the physical world like th human reaper Bioware took the route of seeing how well you remembered everything up to this point and tested your resolve as Commander Shepard.

Asfor the Catalyst himself, the reason why he would act this way is that he is not the Catalyst but actually Harbinger posing as this god like AI that claims to be the creator of the Reapers, lying to you that there are better ways. He's trying to turn you the player as Shepard to the reapers line of thinking. That they need to exist. Two out of three options allow the Reapers to live.

IMO you should just keep reposting this every few pages till Tues., maybe it will sink in.

[thisisme8]

Big G13 wrote...

Domanese wrote...

(Reposting so that the person in question sees this.)

thisisme8 wrote...

My own problem with IT is really the reasoning behind it. Why would the Catalyst need to lie to Shepard? Would an AI, although capable, lie while conceding at the same time? The cycle is over, so there is no need to tell Shepard that he is not indoctrinated, but he still goes so far as to say he is not. Unless IT's true meaning is the indoctrination of the player, and not Shepard. But still, the cycle is over.

Well the line of thinking for an ITer is this as a general statement. (At least it applies to me anyway)

First and Foremost, if the Catalyst is as he says he is a Catalyst, he cannot say for example the Crucible changed him and opened up new possiblities because thats not how a Catalyst works. He defies the very nature of what a Catalyst is. How can he as an AI or even as intellect make that statement unless he lied about being the Catalyst in the first place?

Secondly the wording he chooses to describe himself. He keeps saying after "I am the Catalyst", we, us and constantly refers to his kind as the answer to the problem of organic life. This is strikingly similar to a reapers line of thinking. To be more exact, it's Harbinger's line of thinking. He sees himself as a god like entity and the solution and final evolution of all organic life.

Third, he is trying to convince us within the last ten minutes that the Reapers serve some kind of noble purpose in life, and that they need to exist. The reapers entire goal is nothing but self preservation, their existence and adding to their numbers is all they care about. We have for the past three games continued along the logic of the Reapers needing to be destroyed and wiped out. Hell it's been Shepards driving motivation regardless of Paragon or Renegade options you take. Now all of a sudden this new offer is made by a suspicious entity claiming to be the Catalyst and trying to argue that your goal that has been the focus of the entire saga is wrong.

The conclusion we have reached from the IT stand point is that this final ten minutes is actually a battle at the center of the mind and that the final boss is Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Rather then it being an actual battle in the physical world like th human reaper Bioware took the route of seeing how well you remembered everything up to this point and tested your resolve as Commander Shepard.

Asfor the Catalyst himself, the reason why he would act this way is that he is not the Catalyst but actually Harbinger posing as this god like AI that claims to be the creator of the Reapers, lying to you that there are better ways. He's trying to turn you the player as Shepard to the reapers line of thinking. That they need to exist. Two out of three options allow the Reapers to live.

IMO you should just keep reposting this every few pages till Tues., maybe it will sink in.

Well, it's the best post in terms of being well thought out, non-biased, unaggressive, etc.  Should be quoted in the OP as it best describes the IT for those who haven't been following it the last 3 months.

[Big G13]

thisisme8 wrote...

Big G13 wrote...

Domanese wrote...

(Reposting so that the person in question sees this.)

thisisme8 wrote...

My own problem with IT is really the reasoning behind it. Why would the Catalyst need to lie to Shepard? Would an AI, although capable, lie while conceding at the same time? The cycle is over, so there is no need to tell Shepard that he is not indoctrinated, but he still goes so far as to say he is not. Unless IT's true meaning is the indoctrination of the player, and not Shepard. But still, the cycle is over.

Well the line of thinking for an ITer is this as a general statement. (At least it applies to me anyway)

First and Foremost, if the Catalyst is as he says he is a Catalyst, he cannot say for example the Crucible changed him and opened up new possiblities because thats not how a Catalyst works. He defies the very nature of what a Catalyst is. How can he as an AI or even as intellect make that statement unless he lied about being the Catalyst in the first place?

Secondly the wording he chooses to describe himself. He keeps saying after "I am the Catalyst", we, us and constantly refers to his kind as the answer to the problem of organic life. This is strikingly similar to a reapers line of thinking. To be more exact, it's Harbinger's line of thinking. He sees himself as a god like entity and the solution and final evolution of all organic life.

Third, he is trying to convince us within the last ten minutes that the Reapers serve some kind of noble purpose in life, and that they need to exist. The reapers entire goal is nothing but self preservation, their existence and adding to their numbers is all they care about. We have for the past three games continued along the logic of the Reapers needing to be destroyed and wiped out. Hell it's been Shepards driving motivation regardless of Paragon or Renegade options you take. Now all of a sudden this new offer is made by a suspicious entity claiming to be the Catalyst and trying to argue that your goal that has been the focus of the entire saga is wrong.

The conclusion we have reached from the IT stand point is that this final ten minutes is actually a battle at the center of the mind and that the final boss is Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Rather then it being an actual battle in the physical world like th human reaper Bioware took the route of seeing how well you remembered everything up to this point and tested your resolve as Commander Shepard.

Asfor the Catalyst himself, the reason why he would act this way is that he is not the Catalyst but actually Harbinger posing as this god like AI that claims to be the creator of the Reapers, lying to you that there are better ways. He's trying to turn you the player as Shepard to the reapers line of thinking. That they need to exist. Two out of three options allow the Reapers to live.

IMO you should just keep reposting this every few pages till Tues., maybe it will sink in.

Well, it's the best post in terms of being well thought out, non-biased, unaggressive, etc.  Should be quoted in the OP as it best describes the IT for those who haven't been following it the last 3 months.

OMG, we agree on something. There is hope for the world. Lets quit while we're ahead.

[Starbuck8]

thisisme8 wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

A) you're in denial. They kill people and turn them into slurpees to make more Reapers, not even saving the conciousness of millions. They take the dead and turn them into shock troops as husks. They manipulate through indoctrination.

The cycle is procreation.

C) You have no evidence to back this up and there is no reason for your enemy to be honest with you. EVER.

Am I?  Sure, what they do is cruel from our perspective, but they keep saying that to them, this is the only hope for human survival.  This goes along with B.  You keep saying that making babies is the point of the reapers, but you completely ignore the reason they harvest organics:  Preservation.  They aren't concerned with making more reapers because they want the reapers to live on, they make reapers out of organics because they want the organics to live on.

Regarding C:  You have no evidence to refute it.  Show me once where a reaper has lied.  One time.

I'm not being sympathetic to reapers by saying they aren't cruel and that they couldn't lie, I'm just pointing out that you can't assume the Catalyst is lying to Shepard to convince him to do something when it is all based off of projections that go against everything we've seen from reapers in three games.

To believe that, that means you really believe what the star kid says. The created will ALWAYS rebel against their creator. We need to be saved from the AI we create and preserved in reaper form. But we have proof within our own cycle that organics and synthetics can get along just fine...

First off:  The Catalyst believes that there is no hope for co-existence between creator and created.  But when proven wrong, can't deny it since it doesn't have the emotional capacity to.
Second:  Wouldn't that proof be the reason the Catalyst decided to end the cycle?

Basically what you are saying is:
So the end is just what it says it is?  The Catalyst sees that there can be co-existance so it decides to end the cycle...?

You make a lot of assumptions for someone who has accused us of doing the same. If we take the ending at face value, as you do, then the happenings of our cycle have nothing to do with the ending. It is simply the crucible that has changed him. Unless you think he is lying? And emotional capacity? How about logical capacity, in the face of proof?

Modifié par Starbuck8, 24 juin 2012 - 04:44 .

[Arashi08]

Gernbuster wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

Vaya wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sovereign: "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

Okay so if the IT is true, and it's a "battle of the minds" then Shepard has no hopes of winning. They're friggen Reapers.

If that's your interpretation...

How is he able to resist, no REJECT, indoctrination. What's his secret? Is it his alcohol intake? His bad dancing skills?

Seriously. Why is Shepard a special case.

Saren resisted indoctrination enough that Sovereign filled him full of reaper implants, and he still had enough resistance to blow his brains out. Shiala is indoctrinated but able to resist because of the Thorian spores (and Shepard would have had some exposure as well) so its not unique.

1. Benezia wasn't able to ressist and she is one of the most powerful Asari alive.
2. TIM was ressisting indoctrination for years, because he got a very low level of it and became a true expert about indoctrination and even he got indoctrinated.
3. Indoctrination is THAT important, everybody asked himself the question, will my Shepard maybe gets indoctrinated in the future, by thinking about ME, prerelease.
There should have been at least an explanation, why Shep is ressisting, it would at least been mentured.

and 4. once more i truely believe Shepard already got some Reaper tech inside his body, made by Cerberus.

 Agree with everything except 4 as ME: Deception stated that Grayson was the test case for Reaper tech in a human body and it took place AFTER ME2. not to mention what EDI stated about Cerberus regulations regarding "untested alien technology"

Yes, absolutly true, ^^ finally somebody who read the books.
But who said its the same sort of implants? TIM got them inside his own body for 20 years.
Surely he was researching them. Maybe he was able to reproduce them.
And finally there is still no different VALID explanation, how Cerberus was able to bring somebody dead back to live.

I didn't read them actually...too broke at the time to waste cash on books lol
Reaper tech is Reaper tech, no real way around it and I don't think they'd risk giving Shepard Reaper implants when there is a chance they could indoctrinate her, they wanted Shepard on THEIR side not the Reapers.' 

And of course, Dr.Chakwas has the ability to scan Shepard's implants and determine how they are affecting her body, so I could assume she would be able to tell if there were nanomachines inside Shepard altering her biological chemistry.  To me they seem like advanced, yet still conventional tech they used to accelerate Shepard's revival, but not much more than that.

Thats all only your or mine interpretation.

we can t really say its true or not, because nobody knows how Reaper implants work, in all variations and we can't say if Cerberus would, t use Reaper tech for their own goal, especially if this might be the only chance to bring Shep back to live AND we can't say whats the clue with TIMs implants.
This theory is working like the IT, there is no proof against it, sounds valid to some people, sounds odd to some others.

If I would need to argue against it I would say. The implants are a new unknown tech, which is fact. Invented by Cerberus or Reapers is irrelevant right now. Chakwas can scan it, but I can't remember any moment in the game when she is saying the understands the implants, or something like that. Basicly it is completly arround, she knows from her scans that stress does something with the implants and ...yea they break through your face.
From the novels and games, we know that Reapertech can actually resurect dead flesh and that Reaper implants heal even very deadly wounds.

 By your argument we also don't now if the implants are "new" tech either.  For all we know they could be  basic medical implants used in patients with disabilities, but put together in one body to acceperate the process of revival.  It isn't established that cerberus made the implants from scratch either after all

In any case, we can only say for sure that we MIGHT find out if Shepard has Reaper tech if the ending was a dream.  since Shepard having reaper tech would've been mentioned by now if the endings were to be taken literally, as it seems like it would be a major plot point imo.

[clos]

Man, the only viable theory that could have saved ME3 and Bioware spits on it. They'll rue the day when their company closes down like many others EA has bought.

[FellishBeast]

Why are we all bending over backwards to help this guy understand IT?

Are we that desperate for acceptance?

Modifié par FellishBeast, 24 juin 2012 - 04:56 .

[TJBartlemus]

clos wrote...

Man, the only viable theory that could have saved ME3 and Bioware spits on it. They'll rue the day when their company closes down like many others EA has bought.

Why the f*** is everyone saying that BioWare has spit on it, and say it's not true?? If everyone is watching Jessica Merizan tweets and believing them as truth from God then you guys are ignorant. Cause she IS NOT the voice of BioWare. And BioWare has yet to comfirm or deny IT. So what the f***????

[Starbuck8]

FellishBeast wrote...

Why are we all bending over backwards to help this guy understand IT?

Are we that desperate for acceptance?

Good question...

[DirtyPhoenix]

clos wrote...

Man, the only viable theory that could have saved ME3 and Bioware spits on it. They'll rue the day when their company closes down like many others EA has bought.

There's a saying in my place, dunno if an english equivalent exists, "When someone is set on the path of self-destruction, they become blind to all ways to save themselves".. xD

[TJBartlemus]

FellishBeast wrote...

Why are we all bending over backwards to help this guy understand IT?

Are we that desperate for acceptance?

Yes it seems this way. I realize that he is not going to budge on his point. If he really believes this, then good for him. If he is just stubborn for the fun of it then he is ignorant, arrogant, or just trolling.

[Starbuck8]

TJBartlemus wrote...

clos wrote...

Man, the only viable theory that could have saved ME3 and Bioware spits on it. They'll rue the day when their company closes down like many others EA has bought.

Why the f*** is everyone saying that BioWare has spit on it, and say it's not true?? If everyone is watching Jessica Merizan tweets and believing them as truth from God then you guys are ignorant. Cause she IS NOT the voice of BioWare. And BioWare has yet to comfirm or deny IT. So what the f***????

I wish everyone would just reserve judgement until the EC actually comes out, instead of jumping to conclusions based on vague statements, the same vague statements we've heard since the beginning. It's less than 3 days, people!

[Big Bad]

At the very least, can we please wait until Tuesday to get pissed off and disappointed at Bioware? Right now, being angry about something that hasn't - and may never - happened is just a pure waste of emotional energy.

[Big Bad]

Starbuck8 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

clos wrote...

Man, the only viable theory that could have saved ME3 and Bioware spits on it. They'll rue the day when their company closes down like many others EA has bought.

Why the f*** is everyone saying that BioWare has spit on it, and say it's not true?? If everyone is watching Jessica Merizan tweets and believing them as truth from God then you guys are ignorant. Cause she IS NOT the voice of BioWare. And BioWare has yet to comfirm or deny IT. So what the f***????

I wish everyone would just reserve judgement until the EC actually comes out, instead of jumping to conclusions based on vague statements, the same vague statements we've heard since the beginning. It's less than 3 days, people!

Hahaha...great minds think alike (see above post)! 

[Starbuck8]

Big Bad wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

clos wrote...

Man, the only viable theory that could have saved ME3 and Bioware spits on it. They'll rue the day when their company closes down like many others EA has bought.

Why the f*** is everyone saying that BioWare has spit on it, and say it's not true?? If everyone is watching Jessica Merizan tweets and believing them as truth from God then you guys are ignorant. Cause she IS NOT the voice of BioWare. And BioWare has yet to comfirm or deny IT. So what the f***????

I wish everyone would just reserve judgement until the EC actually comes out, instead of jumping to conclusions based on vague statements, the same vague statements we've heard since the beginning. It's less than 3 days, people!

Hahaha...great minds think alike (see above post)! 

Lol nice

[Salient Archer]

Hi everybody... So... anything new up for appraisal? Or are we still trying to indoctrinate that one guy to our line of thinking?

[Starbuck8]

Salient Archer wrote...

Hi everybody... So... anything new up for appraisal? Or are we still trying to indoctrinate that one guy to our line of thinking?

Sadly, I don't think anything new has cropped up.

There's a pic of a 3D model in the game someone PM'ed me that is titled "reaperindoc02". Has this been brought up before? Can post if anyone is interested.

[DirtyPhoenix]

guys, I was thinking. The tweets (I know) say most of the extra material is around the time you hit the beam. But one of the biggest mystery is how Shepard survives; if they're going for the literal version I'd imagine they'd devote much time to explain that rather than the beam, which is no mystery from a literalist standpoint (injured Shepard, blood loss hence groggy). Thoughts?

[ZerebusPrime]

Salient Archer wrote...

Hi everybody... So... anything new up for appraisal? Or are we still trying to indoctrinate that one guy to our line of thinking?

I noticed that the Reaper on Rannoch was mass producing VR pods like the one Shepard uses to enter the Geth Consensus.  That was many pages ago.

I also asked about some strange sounds in Purgatory the other day (turn off the music and just listen to the background sounds - it's very easy to spot).

[Starbuck8]

pirate1802 wrote...

guys, I was thinking. The tweets (I know) say most of the extra material is around the time you hit the beam. But one of the biggest mystery is how Shepard survives; if they're going for the literal version I'd imagine they'd devote much time to explain that rather than the beam, which is no mystery from a literalist standpoint (injured Shepard, blood loss hence groggy). Thoughts?

All I can say is, I'm really hoping they explain the breath scene. I'm really interested to see this. And to finally figure out what the objects are in the background...

[TJBartlemus]

Salient Archer wrote...

Hi everybody... So... anything new up for appraisal? Or are we still trying to indoctrinate that one guy to our line of thinking?

I think all new proof for IT has been halted and now we are just in full war mode with trolls and those who don't believe. (TWDB) So yes, some of us are still trying to help him.

Also I posted this last night but for those who have seen (or even those who haven't) my Waking Nightmare Theory, I have finished my version 2. So check it out and let me know what you think in here. (link is in signiture) I certainly think it is written better than my last one.

[Salient Archer]

Starbuck8 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Hi everybody... So... anything new up for appraisal? Or are we still trying to indoctrinate that one guy to our line of thinking?

Sadly, I don't think anything new has cropped up.

There's a pic of a 3D model in the game someone PM'ed me that is titled "reaperindoc02". Has this been brought up before? Can post if anyone is interested.

I'm interested Starbuck!, so bam, slap that sucker up on the interwebs...

[Starbuck8]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Hi everybody... So... anything new up for appraisal? Or are we still trying to indoctrinate that one guy to our line of thinking?

I noticed that the Reaper on Rannoch was mass producing VR pods like the one Shepard uses to enter the Geth Consensus.  That was many pages ago.

I also asked about some strange sounds in Purgatory the other day (turn off the music and just listen to the background sounds - it's very easy to spot).

Oh yeah, that was pretty interesting. Imagine the speculation we would have had prior to EC release date announcement

[TJBartlemus]

Starbuck8 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Hi everybody... So... anything new up for appraisal? Or are we still trying to indoctrinate that one guy to our line of thinking?

Sadly, I don't think anything new has cropped up.

There's a pic of a 3D model in the game someone PM'ed me that is titled "reaperindoc02". Has this been brought up before? Can post if anyone is interested.

Sure I'm interested. Post away!!!

[thisisme8]

Starbuck8 wrote...

You make a lot of assumptions for someone who has accused us of doing the same. If we take the ending at face value, as you do, then the happenings of our cycle have nothing to do with the ending. It is simply the crucible that has changed him. Unless you think he is lying? And emotional capacity? How about logical capacity, in the face of proof?

Logical capacity sounds great and all, but once shown logic, emotions determine your acceptance.  Even that isn't entirely accurate, but as close as I can get without getting into a different debate.

No, I don't think he is lying, which is the only reason I don't agree with IT.  Honestly, IT would have been a clever climax to the series, but the endings we have just don't add up to IT.  I'm not even sure what the Literalists believe so I wouldn't throw myself in with them either.  I simply think the endings fell victim to being overanalyzed because they were a little too vague while being liberally artistic.