Found it! Forgive the giant text wall of doom.
thisisme8 wrote...
A) He calls himself the catalyst because he was named by the organics as the catalyst.
I believe (and this is probably the root of our differences) that the reaper's entire purpose is the continuation of the cycle, not their individual self preservation.C) If the reason behind the final 10 minutes of the game is to try and indoctrinate Shepard into believing the goal of the reapers is a noble one, then one of the options would have been to continue the cycle, which there isn't. Even control ends the cycle. The reapers live, but they aren't harvesting species and wiping everything else out. . . anymore.
Other notes: My personal opinion is that deep down Shepard knows that completely defeating the reapers is probably impossible. Finding a way to end the cycle is the best he or she can hope for. Now, I think the reapers are not as smart as they think they are, and that the Catalyst, while being a part of the system that controls the cycle, is actually a part of, yet seperate from the reapers. This allows the Catalyst to see the end of the cycle, while a reaper would simply continue on. The Catalyst can therefore propose the three possible solutions in its power to end the cycle. They may not be the best solutions, but that are the three that the Catalyst can accomplish. Should Harbinger have been in the Catalyst's place, or if he was the Catalyst in Shep's indoctrination dream, he would never have given Shepard the choice to destroy the only thing the reapers live for: the Cycle.
Regarding Issue A) The Protean VI during the questioning at the Illusive Man's Base, claims that the Citadel is the Catalyst. The Starchild on the other claims to be the Catalyst and that he lives in the Citadel. So both have told us something entirely different just from those two statements alone. Let's go on with this thought as well. One of these two is wrong with their statement and to get to the bottom of this, let us remember what a Catalyst is. In a nutshell, a Catalyst changes something else without itself changing.
Now let's take a look at what happens in the ending from a more literal stand point and assume that everything is real so far. We have seen that the Citadel opens itself up completely. We know that the Citadel can open or close itself and when the Crucible docks there is no change to the Citadel itself. This coincides with the basic definition of a Catalyst. The Starchild however claims that the Crucible itself has changed him. This is not what a Catalyst does and as such this proves that the Starchild is in fact lying. be you literalist or indoctinationist, the Starchild is still lying to you.
Regarding Issue
I know we are probably not going to agree with each other on this based on what was said but I will explain my line of thought as best as I can. Whilst the Reapers do exist to continue the cycle, the cycle itself is to reproduce Reapers by harvesting organics. Again, this is an act of self preservation as it is in the nature of any organic being to reproduce and continue the existence of their species. The Reapers are part organic but despite their transcended flesh they are still more organic then machine. Hence the primary directive of a Reaper is still self preservation since everything they do is meant for that purpose.
Regarding Issue C) If the reason behind the final 10 minutes of the game is to try and indoctrinate Shepard into believing the goal of the reapers is a noble one, then one of the options would have been to continue the cycle, which there isn't. Even control ends the cycle. The reapers live, but they aren't harvesting species and wiping everything else out. . . anymore.
Actually Control and Synthesis are indeed allowing the Reapers to continue the cycle. We may not agree but I will break this down as best as I can as well and I will go from both a literal stand point as well as IT. If you have chosen Control and Shepard actually does turn into a Reaper himself and leaves, all this has done is delayed the cycle. It has not completely stopped it because the Reapers still exist and it is not certain whether or not the Commander still has the same mindset or goals as he does as a Reaper. They still need to reproduce. By picking control they have one new Soverign class Reaper in the form of Shepard along with much of the harvested material. Hence they have fufilled their priority for the moment.
Now lets look at this as if it was from the IT standpoint. If Shepard does pick Control then he agrees that the Reapers can be controlled as did the Illusive Man. However they are still in control of you/Shepard based on the mindset one who believes IT. In short the Starchild has successfully bluffed you. Control of the Reapers is not possible if you are being indoctrinated.
Synthesis is even worse. Let's look from a Literalist standpoint. Say Shepard manages to combine synthetic and organic life together into one. We have already seen what happens and the result is a Reaper, not the final image of EDI and Joker. Why is that? Because the Reapers are transcended flesh as Legion has stated and as we already know from the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2. In short Synthesis is the finall evolution of life but not in the way it is shown to be. By picking it you convert every single organic and synthetic into Reapers. It ends the cycle for this galaxy perhaps, but the Reapers got what they wanted until organic life can grow again and now they have successful harvested all life for this cycle.
From an IT standpoint Synthesis works the same way except sicne you are being indoctrinated, you have come in full to the reapers line of thinking and that they are the final evolution of life because as I stated, the Reapers see themselves as that final evolution.
Thankfully no one else suffers this consequence for now, but to sum up things, the Reapers in Control and Synthesis in IT get a valuable tool in Commander Shepard because he can undo everything he worked so hard to accomplish and completely undermine this one chance the cycle had to stop the Reapers.
And to sum up yet again, from a Literal standpoint the Reapers get exactly what they want. They get a Human consciousness to form a new Soverign class reaper plus the harvested materials for said reaper with no guarantee on what the process does to Shepard when being created into a Reaper. Since Harbinger might be the first Reaper, it is not unlikely they can retool Shepards mindset so that he becomes controlled instead. Synthesis is even worse as it accelerates the traditional cycle that can take an extremely long time and turns every species in the galaxy into a Reaper.
As for the last bit you have suggested, Habringer/Starchild cannot forcibly indoctrinate Shepard because according to the IT he is too strong willed to be forced. He passed that point when the Illusive Man vs Anderson scene concluded with the "Illusive Man" dead. Habringer/Starchild however is not without contingencies, instead what he does is pull a fast one on Shepard to try and take advantage of his weakened willpower to willingly make him deviate from his primary motivation which is to Destroy them. Instead Harbinger/Starchild paints it as bad as possible using Shepards experiences against him to try and dissuade him and then paints Control in a more benevolent light but he favors Synthesis over all since that is his true motivation, to make new Reaper. In the end he makes a gamble and it is up to you/Shepard to make the choice that will break him or break the indoctrination.
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It's less than 3 days, people!
Booting my game up now to check this out and the Purgatory sounds you mentioned.
