55528 réponses à ce sujet

[spotlessvoid]

Conflict stems from the competition over resources. Sustenance, shelter, power, whatever. If an abundance of resources are available, then the best course for self preservation is mutual cooperation in the name of creating a less dangerous environment. Respect of an individuals right to free choice is the best method, when resources are abundant, to ensure ones own right to free choice.

The idea that the Reapers are doing this for benevolent reasons is beyond me. Self determination is the natural right of all sentient beings. A self actualized being should know this and simply offer the choice of ascension to Reaperhood

So, to me, this leaves only the possibility that the Reapers are harvesting for their own benefit. Be it for sustenance or to prevent any potential threat to the Reapers future survival.

However, given that the Reapers have shown to have no problems with extended periods in dark space and have obviously mastered ftl, what is their attachment to staying within the confines of this galaxy? If we pose a future threat to them, they could ultimately just leave. And if they were truly benevolent, then why would future organics advanced enough to reach them in dark space even attack them at all?

It all seems to point to the reapers having a need for harvesting organics. A need purely driven by self interest.

[paxxton]

byne wrote...

And then we accomplish what we were trying to do all 3 games. Destroying the Reapers.

With sticks and stones?

byne wrote...

To quote godchild: "You will lose everything that you are" if you pick control. Theres no changing the Reaper programs in it. You're gone. You're the new Catalyst.

And "The Reapers are mine. I control them."

byne wrote...

To quote the Geth Prime who shows up in Tali's place at the end if you side with the geth over the quarians: "We will not relinquish sentience. There will be no further compromise with the Old Machines."

if Destroy is chosen, they are destroyed.

byne wrote...

Even the Geth know there should be no compromise. Destroy the Reapers or you betray everything you and all your allies have fought for.

"And loose this opportunity" to unlock their secrets.  You fought what the Reapers did but they are just machines with a program that can be changed.

Modifié par paxxton, 18 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

[Rifneno]

paxxton wrote...

Assuming for a moment that Starchild's talk is irrelevant, Control gives Shepard, well, control over a powerful technological achievement.

If literalist interpretation is true, I'd only use control for a cleaner version of destroy.

Harbinger: Shepard.
Shepard: You may call me "Master."
Harbinger: This hurts me.
Shepard: Not for long. My first order for all Reapers is to go through the Omega-4 relay. Then fly directly into the supermassive black hole.

Unschuld wrote...

I'd really like to see how this is best, with IT being wrong. I mean, what the heck would the reapers DO, now that they're not reaping, or indoctrinating? AI's could still potentially be created that become hostile, because you did nothing to prevent further development (like synthesis, and even that's debatable). The cycle must continue, then. Unless you consider that the Reapers become the new galactic police. If Shepard makes them play all nicey-nice, there's still going to have a bit of a problem with this since they don't have husks anymore and reapers are a little bit too big to fit through things like doors.

I could see them being effective at policing. Just not on the scale you're talking about. How many pirates do you think will be making slave runs when there's a 75% chance of running into a capital ship in their attempt? It'd take about a month before the Blood Pack decided to go legit and start selling magazines.

Still, I think there's too much possibility for things to go horribly wrong. No matter how just and benevolent a rule Shepard is, there's a chance some technology would slip out that puts the entire galaxy in a situation similar to the cold war.

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

And then we accomplish what we were trying to do all 3 games. Destroying the Reapers.

With sticks and stones?

byne wrote...

To quote godchild: "You will lose everything that you are" if you pick control. Theres no changing the Reaper programs in it. You're gone. You're the new Catalyst.

And "The Reapers are mine. I control them."

byne wrote...

To quote the Geth Prime who shows up in Tali's place at the end if you side with the geth over the quarians: "We will not relinquish sentience. There will be no further compromise with the Old Machines."

if Destroy is chosen, they are destroyed.

byne wrote...

Even the Geth know there should be no compromise. Destroy the Reapers or you betray everything you and all your allies have fought for.

"And loose this opportunity" to unlock their secrets.  You fought what the Reapers did but they are just machines with a program that can be changed.

If it's as simple add uploading new programming, why does Shepard have to sacrifice himself in control?


Starchild:
"I could save you by sending out new instructions, but instead you should die doing it. Still friends right?"

[Beastpwnguy7]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Actually ahs anyone figured out what makes the Starbrat inclusde the "and most technology" line when talking about Destroy? Is it EMS based or...?

Havent tested it but I'd imagine it depends whether or not the geth are alive at the end. Instead of the starchild trying to dissuade you with the geth he uses the fear of destroying all technology

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

Because the sufficently advanced technology is no more after Destroy.

[TSA_383]

More citadel speculation:

Do you think the "unnatural calmness" that almost all the characters seem to be referring to could be an effect of the citadel itself?

That is, the desire is that particularly in times of crisis it is seen as a refuge, somewhere for all the species of the universe to take shelter, conveniently providing the required genetic material for producing a reaper capital ship?

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

If it's as simple add uploading new programming, why does Shepard have to sacrifice himself in control?


Starchild:
"I could save you by sending out new instructions, but instead you should die doing it. Still friends right?"

Ok, I oversimplified that. The point is that the evil part of the Reapers is what they did, not what they are. That's why under Shepard's control they can become  great tools for achieving good goals. Helping rebuild the galaxy.

Modifié par paxxton, 18 mai 2012 - 09:31 .

[Big Bad]

I categorically reject the notion that mortal conflict b/t organics and synthetics is so inevitable that killing countless trillions of sentient beings is a viable solution. This deterministic out look is IMHO counter to the spirit of the series, and any ending premised upon it will be seriously marred in my eyes.

[byne]

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

And then we accomplish what we were trying to do all 3 games. Destroying the Reapers.

With sticks and stones?

byne wrote...

To quote godchild: "You will lose everything that you are" if you pick control. Theres no changing the Reaper programs in it. You're gone. You're the new Catalyst.

And "The Reapers are mine. I control them."

byne wrote...

To quote the Geth Prime who shows up in Tali's place at the end if you side with the geth over the quarians: "We will not relinquish sentience. There will be no further compromise with the Old Machines."

if Destroy is chosen, they are destroyed.

byne wrote...

Even the Geth know there should be no compromise. Destroy the Reapers or you betray everything you and all your allies have fought for.

"And loose this opportunity" to unlock their secrets.  You fought what the Reapers did but they are just machines with a program that can be changed.

1: We're talking about the literal endings, aye? Destroy destroys the Reapers. It only destroys all tech if your EMS is low.

2:
>claims he controls the Reapers
>wants to use the Crucible
>take too long to choose and the Reapers destroy the Crucible

lolwut

3: So are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?

4: The Reapers are not machines with codes as we understand them. They are the amalgamation of hundreds of thousands of harvested organics. Whether their 'programs' can be changed at all is a complete unknown. Choosing control just because you think they can is taking a gamble with every life in the galaxy just because you have a hunch.

[RavenEyry]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

Because the sufficently advanced technology is no more after Destroy.

...Where does it say that? Are we assuming guns are synthetic life now?

[spotlessvoid]

Rifneno wrote...

Still, I think there's too much possibility for things to go horribly wrong. No matter how just and benevolent a rule Shepard is, there's a chance some technology would slip out that puts the entire galaxy in a situation similar to the cold war.

Or if a rogue synthetic gets a hold of Reaper design.
Good job protecting organics Starchild. You too Shepard

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

"And loose this opportunity" to unlock their secrets.  You fought what the Reapers did but they are just machines with a program that can be changed.

Not true. The Reapers are partially orgnaic as we know from ME2 and if what makes a Reaper a Reaper could be contained in a strand of code then they would not need organics to create more Reapers. There is eothing inoganics that make them what they are and following that we must also conlcude that it is not as simple as changing a program.

[Lokanaiya]

@paxxton
You mean we'd have only sticks and stones to destroy the Reapers.... After we destroyed the Reapers?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

Because the sufficently advanced technology is no more after Destroy.

...Where does it say that? Are we assuming guns are synthetic life now?

If you destroyed the Geth, Starvrat apperent ly says "and most technology you rely on" when describiong destroy.

[byne]

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

Because the sufficently advanced technology is no more after Destroy.

...Where does it say that? Are we assuming guns are synthetic life now?

For some people godchild says destroy will also destroy 'most of the technology you rely on'.

He never clarifies what this means, or what counts as technology.

Simple machines are technically technology.

Will destroy get rid of all wheels, levers, pulleys, wedges, screws, and inclined planes?

Who knows? We arent given enough information to know.

[Rifneno]

byne wrote...

For some people godchild says destroy will also destroy 'most of the technology you rely on'.

He never clarifies what this means, or what counts as technology.

Simple machines are technically technology.

Will destroy get rid of all wheels, levers, pulleys, wedges, screws, and inclined planes?

Who knows? We arent given enough information to know.

Also only says it for some people, another odd part.

[byne]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

Because the sufficently advanced technology is no more after Destroy.

...Where does it say that? Are we assuming guns are synthetic life now?

If you destroyed the Geth, Starvrat apperent ly says "and most technology you rely on" when describiong destroy.

So THATS what triggers it?

Man that makes the godchild make even less sense.

'You destroyed the geth already, so I cant use them as a bargaining chip. Dammit. I guess I'll just destroy your toaster or something if you pick destroy. Good luck having breakfast with no toast, jackass!'

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

Because the sufficently advanced technology is no more after Destroy.

But nothing says it cant be rebuild. Even if all technology shuts down, we still have the raw materials (it is not disentregated) and it should actually be a pretty simply matter of recreating alot of the simpler technology and then just work our way up like history did, only faster this time since we know what we are doing.

[RavenEyry]

Yeah I know about the 'all technology' line, but it isn't always said and is as vague as everything else but Paxxtons entire anti-destroy argument seems to hinge on it which was confusing me.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

byne wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

With sticks and stones?

...Why would we only have sticks and stones?

Because the sufficently advanced technology is no more after Destroy.

...Where does it say that? Are we assuming guns are synthetic life now?

If you destroyed the Geth, Starvrat apperent ly says "and most technology you rely on" when describiong destroy.

So THATS what triggers it?

Man that makes the godchild make even less sense.

'You destroyed the geth already, so I cant use them as a bargaining chip. Dammit. I guess I'll just destroy your toaster or something if you pick destroy. Good luck having breakfast with no toast, jackass!'

i am assuming it is what triggers it (would make sense) but no concrete proof from my side.

[RavenEyry]

The only way I can think of how destroy would wreck all technology is by removing the mass effect, but I have no idea how doing that would kill synthetic life. Geth jetpacks might stop working but that wouldn't kill them all.

[spotlessvoid]

Isn't it funny how the Reapers as self serving entities who attempted to indoctrinate Shepard at the end is the only interpretation without massive plot holes

[paxxton]

byne wrote...

1: We're talking about the literal endings, aye? [/qoute]

I wrote a disclaimer in one of the posts.

byne wrote...

Destroy destroys the Reapers. It only destroys all tech if your EMS is low.

And what about synthetic life? It's destroyed. What is life then? Ah,yes.
Technology can also be wiped out as someone sugggested.

byne wrote...

>wants to use the Crucible

No, he doesn't.

byne wrote...

>take too long to choose and the Reapers destroy the Crucible

Attempt on preserving the cycle.

byne wrote...

3: So are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?

Is control of the Reapers submission to them? No.

byne wrote...
4: The Reapers are not machines with codes as we understand them. They are the amalgamation of hundreds of thousands of harvested organics. Whether their 'programs' can be changed at all is a complete unknown. Choosing control just because you think they can is taking a gamble with every life in the galaxy just because you have a hunch.

I oversimplified that. They are considered evil for what they did. But Control gives you the opportunity to change their behavior for the better.

Modifié par paxxton, 18 mai 2012 - 09:46 .