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[Deviean]

I don't think IT supporters should panic. Yes, it was not a hallucination... not completely, anyway. There was indeed an attempt to indoctrinate, or(and i prefer that) influence Shepard to make "the right choice", by the Reapers. And the struggle in Shepard's mind. So TIM, Anderson, "The Catalyst", weren't real.

Yes, "Space Magic" still, but considering that, now it makes a lot of sense. IT isn't dead, it has formed.

[Candidate 88766]

The main reason why the IT is obviously not true is there is nothing to indicate Shepard waking from a dream and going on to defeat the Reapers for real.

The entire purpose of the IT was to find some way of proving that the current endings weren't real; that a 'real' ending was on the way. That was literally the entire point of the IT - to find a way to make a 'real ending' DLC plausible.

But if there were to be 'real' endings, they would've been here, in the EC. They weren't. Which leads to the rather obvious conclusion that I, and many others, have pushed all along: the endings are already in the game.

Anyone still waiting for the 'true ending' after the EC is just kidding themselves. If you still believe the IT is true now, then you believe that you never saw the true ending to the Mass Effect trilogy, and never will. Frankly, I find that to be even worse than the pre-EC endings.

[BlazingZephyr]

Did anyone else notice the difference in Starkid's voice? It seemed as though he had multiple, echoed voices (besides fem/broshep).

[ThisOneIsPunny]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

nullobject wrote...

All of those things are consistent with the "poor writing" hypothesis.

Oh please don't start this.....<_<

That's pretty much the signal to not even bother.

[Capeo]

Deviean wrote...

I don't think IT supporters should panic. Yes, it was not a hallucination... not completely, anyway. There was indeed an attempt to indoctrinate, or(and i prefer that) influence Shepard to make "the right choice", by the Reapers. And the struggle in Shepard's mind. So TIM, Anderson, "The Catalyst", weren't real.

Yes, "Space Magic" still, but considering that, now it makes a lot of sense. IT isn't dead, it has formed.

What!?!  TIM, Anderson and the Catalyst are most certainly real.  God, you ITers are something else.  This is turning into a cult.  The Catalyst even explains what it is a bit more and why the hell do you think you don't see Anderson or TIM in any of the epilogues.  Nothing was a dream, hallucination, brainwashing or anything of the sort. 

[LazyTechGuy]

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Did anyone else notice the difference in Starkid's voice? It seemed as though he had multiple, echoed voices (besides fem/broshep).

You definitely hear MalShep more.  

I guess really for IT to be true it needs to continue to be head canon, but you still lose in the Reject ending.  Unless you count Destroy as "waking up".

[v0rt3x22]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

But if there were to be 'real' endings, they would've been here, in the EC..

Wrong.

As BioWare said - EC does not change the endings and it will not debunk or confirm IT.

so the real endings - are still a possibility.

[Starbuck8]

Going to post this here and on the group discussion. Feel free to take the discussion there. (not grasping here, as I said above I think BW is standing by their literal endings. just interested on what people think, if anyone's still interested in speculation, or anything.)

My observations/thoguhts during the EC:

Shep calls Normandy for evac of squadmates during the beam run while they are shielded by overturned vehicles, harbinger is still there blasting things and ignores the Normandy. Shep says good bye to LI (my LI Garrus was in my squad).

Cut scene - shep running toward beam. Getting blasted by harby is part of cut scene. What did harby say just before blasting shepard??? He said something...

In the hallway on citadel, we see shepard being thrown out of the beam telport thing, onto the ground in the hallway. the keeper it focuses on has a head in its hands. Is that new?

What's that noise when shepard wakes up when anderson radio's "shepard"

Is it just me or are there more bodies?? They still look like "dolls" many look like ashley's armor (ashley dead in my playthrough)

1m1 still there on the way up to control panel room.

The sound when first see anderson - its the same as the sounds we hear (bass humming sound) when we see shep doppelganger and kid burning in the 3rd dream. First time noticing, was it always like this?

Ok could have swore I heard this before EC, now I'm pretty certain. TIM says "The crucibles can control them". plural crucibles?

Shepards voices in starkid's voice, more obvious?

Starchild says when asked if he's just an AI "i'm just an AI in as much as you are just an animal" he's sounding arrogant, prideful...

Starkid says he embodies the collective intelligence of all reapers. He was designed to solve the problem of conflict between AI and organics by his original creators. He couldn't solve the conflict, so he made a new solution! The reapers of course. The original race gave the reapers their form (reapers look like them). He says that the original race did not approve of this solution.

According to the kid, reapers harvest both organic and synthetic life.

Kid compares reapers to fire when shep challenges him that the reapers are causing conflict (the one thing theyre trying to "solve") - they're not "at war" with organics, theyre just doing what they were designed to do...

The crucible is a power source. they thought they had irradicated the concept of the crucible. Kid says "clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized". really? you are the "embodiment" of all previous organic civilizations...

Talking about destroy: it is now in your power to destroy us. makes it more clear that all synthetics will be targeted. targeted? interesting choice of words. Still says "even you are partly synthetic". Says technology will be affected but reparing the damage should be easy (I have a EMS over 5000). Says the peace wont last. Soon our children will create synthetics and etc etc. Shepard says there has to be another way. omg.

Talking about control - You will "die" but your thoughts and memories will continue, you will no longer be organic or connected to organics, but you will remain aware of organics' existence.

Talking about synthesis - the essense of who and what you are will be broken down and dispersed. organics get "perfection thru technology",integrating fully with tech. Synthetics get "perfection thru understanding" and gain full understanding of organics. Synthesis is inevitable,  but couldnt do it before b/c organics were not ready. now we organics are ready.... ok?
civilizations preservedin reaper form become part of us in synthesis. Still says it is the ultimate evolution of all life.

Ok, not sure if I heard this or not because I could have sworn I heard in on my first play, but the second time I didn't catch it. maybe someone can confirm: Starkid says "you WILL choose synthesis"

Ending scenes:
joker doesn't look back
relays dont blow up, just fall apart
galaxy map still wrong
Hey normandy doesn't get blown up by shockwave

In regards to destroy
-No images of geth, or edi. Edi is not on normandy in "memorial" scene.
-Garrus (my LI) has a plaque for the memorial wall with Shep's name, holds it, but we don't see him stick it on the wall. (In synthesis you do). I do have enough EMS for breath scene.
-got the breath scene, AFTER we see scenes of the future, rebuilt citadel (connected to earth by a beam in London), krogan babies, etc. im so confused....

In regards to synthesis (2nd playthrough)
-Looks much more magical than destroy did. There are sparkles
-A cut scene on earth, a husk gets synthesized. the husk is alive? this is... disturbing.
-The synthesis ending scenes with EDI's narration are wow, magical, happy, beautiful, (at least that's how they seem to be intended). Make it seem BW really liked this ending. (destroy was much more... pragmatic)

Haven't done control or reject. Maybe after work/sleep

I'll say again: Going to post this here and on the group discussion. Feel free to take the discussion there. (not grasping here, as I said above I think BW is standing by their literal endings. just interested on what people think, if anyone's still interested in speculation, or anything.)

Edit: also, not trying to bash BW or the EC. I think they did a great job clarifying the endings and giving closure, at least to the ME universe if not to Shepard.

Modifié par Starbuck8, 26 juin 2012 - 04:01 .

[Capeo]

magnetite wrote...

Thing is people actually have to have Bioware come out and say Shepard was indoctrinated. That's essentially a spoon fed ending for people who can't think for themselves.

Truth is, we've cobbled up enough evidence to say it was true, right down to the fact that there's even subliminal messages put on the Normandy. You'd need an audio frequency analyzer to confirm it though.

To actually explain the indoctrination theory to us would take hours of extra scenes, but we've already confirmed it was true.

LOL!!!!  You've confirmed something that is never said, shown, implied, stated or in any way displayed as true?  Really?  Give it up already.  The endings are all real.  IT was never the intention and after EC, how you can even entertain the notion is just ludicrous.  

[MegaSovereign]

Deviean wrote...

I don't think IT supporters should panic. Yes, it was not a hallucination... not completely, anyway. There was indeed an attempt to indoctrinate, or(and i prefer that) influence Shepard to make "the right choice", by the Reapers. And the struggle in Shepard's mind. So TIM, Anderson, "The Catalyst", weren't real.

Yes, "Space Magic" still, but considering that, now it makes a lot of sense. IT isn't dead, it has formed.

Whatever helps you sleep.

[MegaSovereign]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

But if there were to be 'real' endings, they would've been here, in the EC..

Wrong.

As BioWare said - EC does not change the endings and it will not debunk or confirm IT.

so the real endings - are still a possibility.

So what you're saying is.

In order to believe IT is true.

You have to believe that Mass Effect 3 doesn't have an ending, even if 10 years later they still don't confirm IT?

That's pretty stubborn.

[BlazingZephyr]

You know... I find it Ironic that the Catalyst says that it's creators didn't approve of being reaperized...

Doesn't that make the Catalyst a COMPLETE HYPOCRITE!?!?!?!? If he's meant to prevent the Chaos, why continue it in order to stop it? WTF?

[Candidate 88766]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

But if there were to be 'real' endings, they would've been here, in the EC..

Wrong.

As BioWare said - EC does not change the endings and it will not debunk or confirm IT.

so the real endings - are still a possibility.

I've played it already. The endings are the same. They're explained a bit more, but they're still the same.

The endings in the game are already the real endings.

[Warlegend]

Smeffects wrote...

OK i want the IT people that support this theory still to seriously answer my one question:

Before the EC, the destroy ending alive scene was the kind of prouf that you survived and that you could go and save the day. In every ending shepard dream is that of victory, even destroy. So we can establish that under IT theory, what ever happens shepard dream he has done the right thing. Ok now answer me this: Why do the refuse ending make you dream about ultimate failure?

Think long and hard about this one, bioware said they didnt want to debunk or confirm IT. Yet this ending is pretty strong about the Debunk for the very fact that it exist next to the Destroy ending, but does not wield even close results, yet in the IT thoery, both would be the perfect pick. Hell refuse would be the ultimate good ending because you ended the indoctrination much sooner then destroy? So why the dream about failure?

Because Shepard is not acting as the reapers wish, neither he is fighting them in his head anymore. He just stands still mentally. So the Reaper technology inside Shepard is not destroyed by him -> They kill him, because he is no use for them anymore. He just stopped being their puppet - or stopped fighting them physically and psychological

[Modernpreacher]

BlazingZephyr wrote...

You know... I find it Ironic that the Catalyst says that it's creators didn't approve of being reaperized...

Doesn't that make the Catalyst a COMPLETE HYPOCRITE!?!?!?!? If he's meant to prevent the Chaos, why continue it in order to stop it? WTF?

Because it's a machine. It was programmed to solve a problem. It came up with the best solution it could.

It's been working on those parameters ever since. It no longer belives it is the best solution, but it's the only solution it has been capable of.

Until Shepard shows up.

[Deviean]

Capeo wrote...
What!?!  TIM, Anderson and the Catalyst are most certainly real.  God, you ITers are something else.  This is turning into a cult.  The Catalyst even explains what it is a bit more and why the hell do you think you don't see Anderson or TIM in any of the epilogues.  Nothing was a dream, hallucination, brainwashing or anything of the sort.

You obviously don't understand what i mean. But i'm not surprised, to be honest and i don't think you really worth an elaboration.

[nullobject]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

nullobject wrote...

All of those things are consistent with the "poor writing" hypothesis.

Oh please don't start this.....<_<

The obvious counter argument to the IT is banned? Brave truth seekers indeed!

[Unschuld]

Overall, enjoyed the EC, though the Normandy landing right in front of Harby and not getting shot was... as much WTF as it was touching. So the ending... still ambiguous unless you shoot the damn kid (my mistake on the first run... whoops).

Indoc theory this ending certainly isn't, at least not seeming like the whole hallucination sense that most ITers see it as. Honestly, they still left the ending ambiguous, just injecting a few hopeful images... and Tali refusing to put Shepard's name on the wall.

[nullobject]

MegaSovereign wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

But if there were to be 'real' endings, they would've been here, in the EC..

Wrong.

As BioWare said - EC does not change the endings and it will not debunk or confirm IT.

so the real endings - are still a possibility.

So what you're saying is.

In order to believe IT is true.

You have to believe that Mass Effect 3 doesn't have an ending, even if 10 years later they still don't confirm IT?

That's pretty stubborn.

That's fallback position number 2.

Fallback position number 1 is that there is still a "real" ending coming. Just for some reason Bioware decided to release a second "fake" ending first, rather than spending the time working on the "real" one.

[Deviean]

MegaSovereign wrote...Whatever helps you sleep.

Whatever helps you come here and keep this thread alive. lol.

[llbountyhunter]

I don't think that refusal=lose means IT is false...

Since IT is a mental battle, it means you gave up and refused to fight. Destory would be the only way to keep resisting.


Anyways imstill pretty dissapointed with EC... i mean they changedmore to make sense of that crap than they wouldve needed to if they went with IT!

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 26 juin 2012 - 04:18 .

[masster blaster]

Ya and notice not once they mention Shepard was alive or found Shepard in then end of Destroy if you get the breath scene so there is still hope.

[v0rt3x22]

MegaSovereign wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

But if there were to be 'real' endings, they would've been here, in the EC..

Wrong.

As BioWare said - EC does not change the endings and it will not debunk or confirm IT.

so the real endings - are still a possibility.

So what you're saying is.

In order to believe IT is true.

You have to believe that Mass Effect 3 doesn't have an ending, even if 10 years later they still don't confirm IT?

That's pretty stubborn.

Kind of - not exactly. I'm saying I'm seeing the endings as open ended - not absolute.

[JeosDinas]

I can't wait to feast upon the metric tons of cognitive dissonance that will be congealing in this thread now.