55528 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Looking outside the thread, it seems like nobody's modding the area.

They probably figure that it's relatively futile right now, so they're just letting everyone hammer it out for a while.  Let off steam and aggression.

[L0NEWOLF25]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Looking outside the thread, it seems like nobody's modding the area.

Why'd you have to say something?

[v0rt3x22]

L0NEWOLF25 wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Looking outside the thread, it seems like nobody's modding the area.

Why'd you have to say something?

LEEEROOOOOY!

[Vet223]

I wouldn't say nothing is added to IT, not at all. Overall it's a net gain for IT.

1) We learn the citadel doesn't fall to earth if it does in fact actually blow up, it stays out in space. Yet Shepard taking that breath, in a scene with wind... it takes even more mental gymnastics to make a claim that he/she actually left London in the first place.

2) The most obvious indoctrinated ending, control, has ShepaReaper saying some very un-shepard-like things now. Downright sinister, and completely unlike any Shepard character, renegade or not. We're really supposed to believe that's the sound of Shepard influencing them and not the other way around? About as much positive spin as a Saren rant about ascension.

3) Right after beaming up to the citadel, I'm fairly sure the strange little robotic twitch Shepard makes when Anderson hails him is new. Hard to believe that kind of audio/visual cue, which has zero relevance to a face-value ending (just like maybe half an hour of dream sequences, conversations, symbolism, etc), is just accident or happenstance.

4) I might be crazy but it seems like the blue eyes and 3 whitish dots are easier to see now, and displayed longer and/or more frequently, for the blue and green endings. And of course that existing at all, Shepard having Saren/TIM eyes (not just "implanted" eyes per far-red renegade Shepards) is another thing that, to chalk up to accident or happenstance, seems naive to me.

5) I'm fairly sure they added dialogue of the Starchild claiming to BE, not merely control, the collective consciousness of all the reapers. (He does speak of them more separately as well, but seperate like hardware and software; he [software] gives the creator's corporeal creations [hardware] purpose.) Again, correct me if that's not new... but either way, why the hell are the face-value proponents simply accepting everything the murderous and manipulative reapers say as true? We know at the very least the implication that Shepard will not survive because his synthetic implants will be destroyed turns out not to be true, so following rational thoughts include "hmm, I bet I didn't really wipe out the geth either" and "I wasn't really being given a true choice there, and certainly not a fairly informed one; manipulation, I say!"

6) To back up number 5, the new "reject" ending includes the reaper we've been talking to going back to its deep and dark voice and storming away from you, not really concerned about its favorite so-called solutions anymore. There is no innocent or well-meaning child, there is only the reapers, and they are lying to you. The forked platform is your -purely psychological- final boss battle.

Modifié par Vet223, 26 juin 2012 - 11:04 .

[byne]

Oh god no!

I'm playing Dawnguard.

I'm a vampire.

I'm currently all shiny and glowing.

I dont like where this is going at all.

[v0rt3x22]

byne wrote...

Oh god no!

I'm playing Dawnguard.

I'm a vampire.

I'm currently all shiny and glowing.

I dont like where this is going at all.

:lol:

Now - who's complaining about the ending of ME3? 

[SubAstris]

dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Shepard's mother, whose existence we can infer, doesn't alter the entire focus and events of the ME Trilogy tbf

You can also infer indoctrination symptoms, the dreams being the easiest one to acknowledge.

That's the beauty of interpretation: it can coexist with a literal outlook, which is entirely possible with the material present in this thread and the previous one.

It is more logical to assume that a son has a mother than what we have here, hidden/ invisible indoctrination symptoms being present from potentially indoctrinating objects . The latter's presence is key to the narrative and needs to be established very firmly that it exists, otherwise it is nothing other than bad writing.

[NoSpin]

Vet223 wrote...


3) Right after beaming up to the citadel, I'm fairly sure the strange little robotic twitch Shepard makes when Anderson hails him is new. Hard to believe that kind of audio/visual cue, which has zero relevance to a face-value ending, is just accident or happenstance.




6) To back up number 5, the new "reject" ending includes the reaper we've been talking to going back to its deep and dark voice and storming away from you, not really concerned about its favorite so-called solutions anymore. There is no innocent or well-meaning child, there is only the reapers, and they are lying to you. The forked platform is your -purely psychological- final boss battle.

THIS. 

I noticed these my playthrough, what point do they have other than Bioware f***ing with us IT'ers?

[dreamgazer]

SubAstris wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Shepard's mother, whose existence we can infer, doesn't alter the entire focus and events of the ME Trilogy tbf

You can also infer indoctrination symptoms, the dreams being the easiest one to acknowledge.

That's the beauty of interpretation: it can coexist with a literal outlook, which is entirely possible with the material present in this thread and the previous one.

It is more logical to assume that a son has a mother than what we have here, hidden/ invisible indoctrination symptoms being present from potentially indoctrinating objects . The latter's presence is key to the narrative and needs to be established very firmly that it exists, otherwise it is nothing other than bad writing.

Not really.  Indoctrination could still be influencing Shepard's decision-making process in the chamber, or you can look at the chamber literally.  Either way, Shepard is forced to break his/her previous ideals to make the options work, and the presence of the dreams adds an element of filtered interpretation to that.  

[estebanus]

Ok, this will be my last post for the next few weeks, and I just finished the EC, SO I'll say a few things about it.

For me, regardless of the ending being literal or IT, Bioware has redeemed itself for me. I thoroughly enjoyed all aspects of the EC, eventhough many questions were left unanswered. The most important ones were solved for me. And that is what I'm happy about.

It is good to know that the galaxy will go on,even with all relays being destroyed. The Normandy won't be forever stranded on that planet, and the stargazer scene is better now, considering that they aren't the imbred descendants ofthe Normandy crew.

However, I still believe in the IT, no matter if Bioware redeemed themselves in my eyes in the literal endings.

For me, they saved the endings from a literal point of view. Now, it's time for them to make the endings epic!

Goodbye, my fellow ITers! I'll see you all in 3 weeks! Stay strong!

[Rifneno]

Bah. We should've gotten onto a private message board a long time ago. Having this discussion with a swarm of trolls leaves almost half as bitter a taste in my mouth as EC.

I don't know what to think. IT still makes some sense form a purely in-game perspective. From an outside perspective, our main theory on this just fell apart. The one thing the trolls are right about is that it doesn't make any sense for them to have spent 3 months on this polished turd if they were really planning to give us a DLC with the real ending. It's just absurd. Which leaves the following.

1) They really did intend the literalist interpretation. The literal interpretation is still asinine as far as I'm concerned. They may have fixed some minor IT points like clipless keepers and equaled out some like teleporting squadmates with equally ridiculous "Harbinger shoots everything that moves except the Normandy for some reason which he ignores for an extended period of time". But there's still the core stuff that drew us to IT. The dreams that reek of indoctrination symptoms, especially ones introduced in Arrival. "PTSD," the literalists say. "Stop pretending to be a psychologist," I say. PTSD has a lot of symptoms that Shepard doesn't have, but characters like Kelly Chambers or the asari in the hospital do. Or the TIM eyes. There's too many hints that couldn't be accidental. Which brings me to...

2) They intended IT, but never intended to actually do anything with it. Somebody saw Blade Runner, didn't understand the moral message to the question posed, didn't understand their own story enough to realize posing the same question in it would break it, and stuck it in anyway in an epicly failed attempt to write something "deep." So they intended the "Speculations 4 all!" meme in its entirety. And just that. There was never going to be an answer to the question and there was never going to be a real ending if you were smart enough to notice things weren't right.

3) They did intend IT and they still intend IT, but rather than a DLC it'll be Mass Effect 4. This is the only way IT could've been intended, they intended to give us a real ending, and they would've spent months on this polished turd. Because the "real ending" isn't just around the corner, it's in the next city. Except since day one they've told us ME was a trilogy. Three games. Which means if it that is their plan, they cut 3 in half so they could sell it to us in two parts. Milk the cash cow. Remind me again about your "artistic integrity?"

Frankly, I just don't care anymore. I've waited all I'm going to wait. Mass Effect is dead to me now. I don't headcanon IT, I don't headcanon anything, I just don't give a damn anymore. This has taken enough of my life and I've been strung along enough. My fellow IT'ers that have made the past few months so much fun, I thank you. It's just a shame we all got together on something that didn't deserve us. Farewell.

[v0rt3x22]

Vet223 wrote...

I wouldn't say nothing is added to IT, not at all. Overall it's a net gain for IT.

You, sir - are a very smart man. (I'm not being sarcastic)

1) We learn the citadel doesn't fall to earth if it blows up, it stays out in space. Yet Shepard taking that breath, in a scene with wind... it takes even more mental gymnastics to make a claim that he/she actually left London in the first place.

I also could've sworn that they added ambience into it which now sounds like a city.

2) The most obvious indoctrinated ending, control, has ShepaReaper saying some very un-shepard-like things now. Downright sinister, and completely unlike any Shepard character, renegade or not. We're really supposed to believe that's the sound of Shepard influencing them and not the other way around? About as much positive spin as a Saren rant about ascension.

Hmm actually I found "Reject" to be the obvious one.

3) Right after beaming up to the citadel, I'm fairly sure the strange little robotic twitch Shepard makes when Anderson hails him is new. Hard to believe that kind of audio/visual cue, which has zero relevance to a face-value ending, is just accident or happenstance.

It is new. Some people claim its a defibilator from your cerbrus implants (however you spell that) - but I think that's bull.)

4) I might be crazy but it seems like the blue eyes and 3 whitish dots are easier to see now, and displayed longer and/or more frequently, for the blue and green endings. And of course that existing at all, Shepard having Saren/TIM eyes (not just "implanted" eyes per far-red renegade Shepards) is another thing that, to chalk up to accident or happenstance, seems naive to me.

Not sure if they're easier to see - but they are still there.

5) I'm fairly sure they added dialogue of the Starchild claiming to BE, not merely control, the collective consciousness of all the reapers. (He does speak of them more separately as well, but seperate like hardware and software; he [software] gives the creator's corporeal creations [hardware] purpose.) Again, correct me if that's not new... but either way, why the hell are the face-value proponents simply accepting everything the murderous and manipulative reapers say as true? We know at the very least the implication that Shepard will not survive because his synthetic implants will be destroyed turns out not to be true, so the next rational thought is "hmm, I bet I didn't really wipe out the geth either..."

I'm still brainstorming about this one...

6) To back up number 5, the new "reject" ending includes the reaper we've been talking to going back to its deep and dark voice and storming away from you, not really concerned about its favorite so-called solutions anymore. There is no innocent or well-meaning child, there is only the reapers, and they are lying to you. The forked platform is your -purely psychological- final boss battle.

Yup. Most obvious hint in my opinion.

I also found it very strange....while I agree that IT has not been debunked or confirmed - I kind of get the feeling that if BioWare really want us to take the ending literal - it seems to work more now, than before - even without "IT".

I tried to play the ending without thinking about IT - and it made more sense.
But there are still some very strange aspects - which I just can't explain without applying "IT"

[dreamgazer]

estebanus wrote...

For me, regardless of the ending being literal or IT, Bioware has redeemed itself for me. I thoroughly enjoyed all aspects of the EC, eventhough many questions were left unanswered. The most important ones were solved for me. And that is what I'm happy about.

Indeed. (thumbs up)

[Last Hearth]

The indoctrination theory is still valid, at least the one I came up with.

Shepard is the catalyst, the strategy was always for the reapers to persuade Shepard to use the crucible to benefit them rather than us.

Shepard gets the choice to use the crucible in whatever way he ways because he's the catalyst, but both control and synthesis are reaper's way of subverting the crucible for their benefit rather than ours.

[SubAstris]

Vet223 wrote...

I wouldn't say nothing is added to IT, not at all. Overall it's a net gain for IT.

1) We learn the citadel doesn't fall to earth if it blows up, it stays out in space. Yet Shepard taking that breath, in a scene with wind... it takes even more mental gymnastics to make a claim that he/she actually left London in the first place.

2) The most obvious indoctrinated ending, control, has ShepaReaper saying some very un-shepard-like things now. Downright sinister, and completely unlike any Shepard character, renegade or not. We're really supposed to believe that's the sound of Shepard influencing them and not the other way around? About as much positive spin as a Saren rant about ascension.

3) Right after beaming up to the citadel, I'm fairly sure the strange little robotic twitch Shepard makes when Anderson hails him is new. Hard to believe that kind of audio/visual cue, which has zero relevance to a face-value ending, is just accident or happenstance.

4) I might be crazy but it seems like the blue eyes and 3 whitish dots are easier to see now, and displayed longer and/or more frequently, for the blue and green endings. And of course that existing at all, Shepard having Saren/TIM eyes (not just "implanted" eyes per far-red renegade Shepards) is another thing that, to chalk up to accident or happenstance, seems naive to me.

5) I'm fairly sure they added dialogue of the Starchild claiming to BE, not merely control, the collective consciousness of all the reapers. (He does speak of them more separately as well, but seperate like hardware and software; he [software] gives the creator's corporeal creations [hardware] purpose.) Again, correct me if that's not new... but either way, why the hell are the face-value proponents simply accepting everything the murderous and manipulative reapers say as true? We know at the very least the implication that Shepard will not survive because his synthetic implants will be destroyed turns out not to be true, so the next rational thought is "hmm, I bet I didn't really wipe out the geth either..."

6) To back up number 5, the new "reject" ending includes the reaper we've been talking to going back to its deep and dark voice and storming away from you, not really concerned about its favorite so-called solutions anymore. There is no innocent or well-meaning child, there is only the reapers, and they are lying to you. The forked platform is your -purely psychological- final boss battle.

1) Wind? How do you know? It was obvious enough that the Citadel hadn't crashed.

2) We have no idea whether these great things Shepard is talking about are true or not. I think the burden of proof is on the one who says it isn't real. You might have a point if there were some scenes whose veracity were true and we saw bad things happening, but we didn't. Furthermore, you have to remember that the presence of the Catalyst changes everything; and with that, people's outlook changes (in London he says everything will be different after this is over)

3) Video evidence?

4) This doesn't seem to be anything different from the evidence provided before EC so I will let it slide

5) Yes they did. Again, not adding that much to what has been known before.

6) Are you implying it's Harbinger? If so, we don't know; it seems the Catalyst is just expressing his disapproval at what Shepard has done. But if he were just a Reaper manifestation, wouldn't you expect that there would be a similar thing said for destroy, since that is against the Reaper's will as well?

[byne]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Vet223 wrote...

2) The most obvious indoctrinated ending, control, has ShepaReaper saying some very un-shepard-like things now. Downright sinister, and completely unlike any Shepard character, renegade or not. We're really supposed to believe that's the sound of Shepard influencing them and not the other way around? About as much positive spin as a Saren rant about ascension.

Hmm actually I found "Reject" to be the obvious one.

The more I think about it the more I think reject is the most obvious indoctrination ending. It is the only one where Shepard completely refuses to stop the Reapers.

[v0rt3x22]

byne wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Vet223 wrote...

2) The most obvious indoctrinated ending, control, has ShepaReaper saying some very un-shepard-like things now. Downright sinister, and completely unlike any Shepard character, renegade or not. We're really supposed to believe that's the sound of Shepard influencing them and not the other way around? About as much positive spin as a Saren rant about ascension.

Hmm actually I found "Reject" to be the obvious one.

The more I think about it the more I think reject is the most obvious indoctrination ending. It is the only one where Shepard completely refuses to stop the Reapers.

But he doesn't wake up in that one 

[SubAstris]

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Your reductio ad absurdum is fundamentally flawed that is all

Has there ever been a reductio ad absurdum that wasnt?

I guess so

[dreamgazer]

Last Hearth wrote...

The indoctrination theory is still valid, at least the one I came up with.

Shepard is the catalyst, the strategy was always for the reapers to persuade Shepard to use the crucible to benefit them rather than us.

Shepard gets the choice to use the crucible in whatever way he ways because he's the catalyst, but both control and synthesis are reaper's way of subverting the crucible for their benefit rather than ours.

Ding, ding.  I doubt you're alone in that. 

[byne]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

byne wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Vet223 wrote...

2) The most obvious indoctrinated ending, control, has ShepaReaper saying some very un-shepard-like things now. Downright sinister, and completely unlike any Shepard character, renegade or not. We're really supposed to believe that's the sound of Shepard influencing them and not the other way around? About as much positive spin as a Saren rant about ascension.

Hmm actually I found "Reject" to be the obvious one.

The more I think about it the more I think reject is the most obvious indoctrination ending. It is the only one where Shepard completely refuses to stop the Reapers.

But he doesn't wake up in that one 

By most obvious indoctrination ending I mean the one where she has been the most obviously fully indoctrinated, not the most obvious choice for IT.

[Silhouett3]

I still haven't get to play the EC because of some problem with Origin. Anyway, I'd just bump my previous posts here which were mostly ignored by literalists. Bottom line, IT still makes more sense than literal interpretation:

Silhouett3 wrote...

From what I'm hearing the ending at face value doesn't make sense yet again:

Catalyst isn't influenced/"changed" by Crucible, hence the Reject ending.
For the RGB choices to work out as Catalyst says, you must be trusting a lying Reaper *again
If you don't accept the Reaper way of thinking and finally decide to "end this on own terms"
then the Catalyst doesn't feel necessary anymore to talk with a fake voice similar to a child.

So the ending still sounds like manipulation to me

Catalyst - You have altered the variables...Crucible changed me... If there is to be a new solution, you must act.

Yet the cycle does continue without any altered variations if you just be the same Shepard you have been throughout 3 games, pursue your ultimate goal which is to make your own choices and not obey with any choice a Reaper offers. Liara says through the capsule "Crucible didn't work" plain and simple, the cycle continues and Reapers aren't changed by Crucible.

As long as this isn't explained, the ending is face value still contradicts the established lore.

Debunkers, please have a try at this.

Modifié par Silhouett3, 26 juin 2012 - 11:14 .

[v0rt3x22]

byne wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

byne wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Vet223 wrote...

2) The most obvious indoctrinated ending, control, has ShepaReaper saying some very un-shepard-like things now. Downright sinister, and completely unlike any Shepard character, renegade or not. We're really supposed to believe that's the sound of Shepard influencing them and not the other way around? About as much positive spin as a Saren rant about ascension.

Hmm actually I found "Reject" to be the obvious one.

The more I think about it the more I think reject is the most obvious indoctrination ending. It is the only one where Shepard completely refuses to stop the Reapers.

But he doesn't wake up in that one 

By most obvious indoctrination ending I mean the one where she has been the most obviously fully indoctrinated, not the most obvious choice for IT.

ohhhh - right yea that's true.

[estebanus]

Also, once I'm back from the USA, I'll be ready to discuss with you again! I found a very interesting tidbit in the final dream. Yes, this first came after the EC.

[v0rt3x22]

It's soooo quiet....BSN, Twitter (I mean the developers).....creepy.

[v0rt3x22]

estebanus wrote...

Also, once I'm back from the USA, I'll be ready to discuss with you again! I found a very interesting tidbit in the final dream. Yes, this first came after the EC.

Care to share now? lol....how long you gonna be in the US?