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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#30376
Destructorlio

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HellishFiend wrote...

MissMaster_2 wrote...

GUYS
http://marketplace.x...0d-15c90899ec78


*Throws down ninja smoke bomb*

Peace out everyone! See you tomorrow!


Heh. Hi guys. I am in Australia, and at work. The EC is downloaded and on my xbox- I will play it when I get home. I had to stop reading at 1168 when the content dropped, so I wouldn't get spoiled. It's going to be VERY HARD not to read spoilers today. Anyway, just wanted to reiterate- no matter if the EC is good or bad (and I suppose a lot of you know the answer to that question now), it's been a great ride in this thread- you're all geniuses or insane or both.

See you tomorrow, take care.

#30377
dreamgazer

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SubAstris wrote...
.
No? I agree with the final bit at least, except for the dreams which I don't think are good evidence for indoctrination


In terms of how the dreams relate to the experiences of Object Rho's subjects, it's perfectly viable.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 26 juin 2012 - 11:47 .


#30378
v0rt3x22

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Has anyone found anything yet in the dream sequence before Cerb Base?

#30379
SubAstris

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EpyonX3 wrote...


Here's one question for you guys. If Shepard rejects, why doesn't he still wake up anyway? Listen to his words, he's not giving up, he's going to fight, just not with the help from the catalyst. He stands erect, like in destroy and states how free he is.If IT were in play, that would be breaking free any day, because you didn't pick any reaper options. Yet, we don't see Shepard wake up. Instead we all die, the next cycle gets the message and prepare the right way.




Hadn't thought of that, pretty good. If IT were true, we would have the same breath scene as destroy instead of this presumption that the species will not be able to activate the Crucible and will lose if you pick "Refuse"

#30380
SubAstris

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dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
.
No? I agree with the final bit at least, except for the dreams which I don't think are good evidence for indoctrination


In terms of how the dreams relate to the experiences of Object Rho's subjects, it's perfectly viable.


In what way?

#30381
McWhitey3

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After watching all the endings, I feel that BW did a good job. I think this is the endings they wanted in the first place but maybe didn't have enough time. I will say though that after thinking about these endings and IT I think that they have made it were both IT and literal views are true to an extent. My thought is that the citadel scenes really happen. The reapers actually put in place plans for the crucible. They knew that the crucible could only be built by a cycle with FULL cooperation from all races. Maybe the thinking is that if a cycle could actually build the crucible and bring it to the citadel then there was hope the cycle could end and the 3 choices are the last test. This is the IT part. The starchild is harbinger (from his voice in the refuse ending). He is trying one last time to test Shep (humanity) the control and synthesis endings I think to keep the reapers alive and the cycle going. If you think about it in the control ending the reapers are used to help rebuild...but what happens after that? probably genocide again. Synthesis is the final form of evolution from what starchild/harbinger says...isnt this the same as the reapers havesting? They all become one but retain their forms? Destroy is still the "good ending" Shep passing the final test and ending the cycle permentantly. The reject ending is just that...I think the crucible is still the key to defeat the reapers and the only way, by not using it the cylce ends and restarts again. Maybe the crucible was designed by the creators of the reapers and the end of the "solution"

This way BW gets to keep their endings and speculation going but yet pleasing both Literalists and ITers.

Just a thought...But I still really want IT to end up being true and later on Shep wakes up from the rubble and finish the fight.

#30382
Dancing-Krogan

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Modifié par Dancing-Krogan, 26 juin 2012 - 11:54 .


#30383
Dancing-Krogan

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Ownaholic wrote...

Right...Well. I'm going to go ahead and re-post what I just wrote five seconds ago. You guys are focusing on the last topic instead of evidence. xD

I just realized something very small, but interesting.
This one really does fit the bill of "grasping at straws", but it's interesting nonetheless.

When Anderson says "He's controlling you!", he actually looks at Shepard. Shepard is not shown on-screen, but he is standing behind TIM during this scene, at a closer-to-the-camera angle, which is where Anderson is looking.
37:10
Watch Anderson's eyes. He doesn't look at TIM. He looks at Shepard.If he was looking at TIM, his eyes would be slightly off to the right. But he's looking right over TIM's left shoulder.
His eyes connect DIRECTLY with where Shepard is standing.


This is true, but we discussed this a while back.

#30384
legaldinho

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Rifneno wrote...

Bah. We should've gotten onto a private message board a long time ago. Having this discussion with a swarm of trolls leaves almost half as bitter a taste in my mouth as EC.

I don't know what to think. IT still makes some sense form a purely in-game perspective. From an outside perspective, our main theory on this just fell apart. The one thing the trolls are right about is that it doesn't make any sense for them to have spent 3 months on this polished turd if they were really planning to give us a DLC with the real ending. It's just absurd. Which leaves the following.

1) They really did intend the literalist interpretation. The literal interpretation is still asinine as far as I'm concerned. They may have fixed some minor IT points like clipless keepers and equaled out some like teleporting squadmates with equally ridiculous "Harbinger shoots everything that moves except the Normandy for some reason which he ignores for an extended period of time". But there's still the core stuff that drew us to IT. The dreams that reek of indoctrination symptoms, especially ones introduced in Arrival. "PTSD," the literalists say. "Stop pretending to be a psychologist," I say. PTSD has a lot of symptoms that Shepard doesn't have, but characters like Kelly Chambers or the asari in the hospital do. Or the TIM eyes. There's too many hints that couldn't be accidental. Which brings me to...

2) They intended IT, but never intended to actually do anything with it. Somebody saw Blade Runner, didn't understand the moral message to the question posed, didn't understand their own story enough to realize posing the same question in it would break it, and stuck it in anyway in an epicly failed attempt to write something "deep." So they intended the "Speculations 4 all!" meme in its entirety. And just that. There was never going to be an answer to the question and there was never going to be a real ending if you were smart enough to notice things weren't right.

3) They did intend IT and they still intend IT, but rather than a DLC it'll be Mass Effect 4. This is the only way IT could've been intended, they intended to give us a real ending, and they would've spent months on this polished turd. Because the "real ending" isn't just around the corner, it's in the next city. Except since day one they've told us ME was a trilogy. Three games. Which means if it that is their plan, they cut 3 in half so they could sell it to us in two parts. Milk the cash cow. Remind me again about your "artistic integrity?"

Frankly, I just don't care anymore. I've waited all I'm going to wait. Mass Effect is dead to me now. I don't headcanon IT, I don't headcanon anything, I just don't give a damn anymore. This has taken enough of my life and I've been strung along enough. My fellow IT'ers that have made the past few months so much fun, I thank you. It's just a shame we all got together on something that didn't deserve us. Farewell.


Frankly, you only have yourself to blame. Many people warned the IT faithful that they were taking it too far with the whole "it's just a ploy and DLC will reveal it's a dream". That was never going to happen. I myself posted this three or four times on this and many other threads. My interpretation is that Shepard dreams the ending from the conduit onwards; that he is struggling against indoctrination. But I believe it's an interpretation, not THE ending, the one that was going to be revealed. I never hailed Bioware as geniuses for this. I thought it was an audacious attempt at a total recall type alternative interpretation, and all the more praiseworthy for it. But it failed. It failed because the face-value endings were too difficult to accept. The extended cut DLC tried to fix that. I suppose on some level it did, it explained what happens to people. But the basic premise of the ending- the introduction of the godchild, the poorly signposted synthesis option, the hitherto frankly derided control option being presented as acceptable, and generally the logic of the technological singularity - all still count as failures. The added dialogue of the godchild actually undermines the endings.

Whatever the reason was: money, time, the need to spin a new trilogy, the face-value ending doesn't cut it. IT would have been genius if in fact the face value endings made sense in the context of the game. Indoctrination certainly does. This is what you miss, because you're wedded to IT as the ending to the exclusion of all others. You've turned it, like others on here, into something you're personally invested in, some kind of clannish ethos. Totall recall is great because it can have two perfectly viable endings. It was a laudable attempt by Bioware but it failed.

#30385
Dancing-Krogan

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v0rt3x22 wrote...

Has anyone found anything yet in the dream sequence before Cerb Base?


I was watching the vid on Youtube but it wasn't from the EC. So I'm not sure if there is anything new in EC.

#30386
dreamgazer

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SubAstris wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
.
No? I agree with the final bit at least, except for the dreams which I don't think are good evidence for indoctrination


In terms of how the dreams relate to the experiences of Object Rho's subjects, it's perfectly viable.


In what way?


I'm sure you've discussed this before, seeing as how you've been around this thread for a long time.  But okay:

Guard: Kenson’s acting strange lately. Like she doesn’t care about the Project anymore. And I know I’m not the only one having those dreams. The Reapers are coming she says. But I’m not sure if I’m hearing fear or hope in her voice.”

http://masseffect.wi...al_(assignment) 

Those nightmares can be interpreted in several ways, symptoms being one of them. 

#30387
McWhitey3

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SubAstris wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Here's one question for you guys. If Shepard rejects, why doesn't he still wake up anyway? Listen to his words, he's not giving up, he's going to fight, just not with the help from the catalyst. He stands erect, like in destroy and states how free he is.If IT were in play, that would be breaking free any day, because you didn't pick any reaper options. Yet, we don't see Shepard wake up. Instead we all die, the next cycle gets the message and prepare the right way.




Hadn't thought of that, pretty good. If IT were true, we would have the same breath scene as destroy instead of this presumption that the species will not be able to activate the Crucible and will lose if you pick "Refuse"


If the destory ending was literal then why isnt Joker upset that EDI was just destroyed :) .....There is alot of time from when Shep rejects the starchild and the next cycle finds Liara's Beacon...This is just fan service as many wanted a "reapers win" ending

#30388
Lokanaiya

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FINALLY getting to the end part. If anyone has any questions post-beam let me know, going through it right now. One note: the white flash after being hit by Harbinger's beam is much longer.

#30389
Lokanaiya

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You can't walk through the keepers anymore...

#30390
byne

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So, I just watched the whole synthesis ending.

Two lines that really bugged me, but arent necessarily IT related:

We may transcend mortality itself.

Because never dying yet still reproducing wont lead to us eventually exhausting all the galaxy's resources. Overpopulation is just a myth! Death isnt necessary!

No matter how far we advance, we will remember the sacrifices who made it possible. And we will remember Shepard.

WHAT?!

Who the hell does EDI think made it possible? The Illusive Man? The Biotic God? Who does she attribute to making it possible that she thinks so highly of that she tacks Shepard on as an afterthought?

I didnt think I could dislike synthesis anymore, but damn.

#30391
masster blaster

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v0rt3x22 wrote...

 I'm not sure everyone saw this - so I'll just double post:

http://social.biowar.../index/12777408 


Remember IN  ME1 each Reapar is Independent so ya this is a big clue ofr IT espacially Harby goes missing.

#30392
llbountyhunter

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SubAstris wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Here's one question for you guys. If Shepard rejects, why doesn't he still wake up anyway? Listen to his words, he's not giving up, he's going to fight, just not with the help from the catalyst. He stands erect, like in destroy and states how free he is.If IT were in play, that would be breaking free any day, because you didn't pick any reaper options. Yet, we don't see Shepard wake up. Instead we all die, the next cycle gets the message and prepare the right way.




Hadn't thought of that, pretty good. If IT were true, we would have the same breath scene as destroy instead of this presumption that the species will not be able to activate the Crucible and will lose if you pick "Refuse"


You kinda just reiterated why refuse wpuldmt work.... shepard gave up on the mental  battle. Saying "oh i want to fight, but not like this" is the same as giving up.

#30393
Lat2oo5

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I didnt realise that the stargazer scene changes a lot in the refusal ending: another way to sell the dlc to all of us?
And Shepard surviving in destroy, I think Bioware did it triying to satisfied everyone, I cannot see it as a proof of the IT, at least no longer...

Modifié par Lat2oo5, 27 juin 2012 - 12:16 .


#30394
GBGriffin

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Just thought I'd pop in to gloat for a bit, see how the mental gymnastics were coming along. Good to see that people are still at it, as they were months ago.

Sorry Shepard didn't "wake up" from anything, though. But, hey, that's what headcanon/fanfic is for!

#30395
Jere85

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Lokanaiya wrote...

You can't walk through the keepers anymore...

What ending will you pick?
And if you have been spoiler free, dont shoot the kid, its an ending, but its not what you came here for im sure.
Or maybe you are just too curious... ;)

#30396
legaldinho

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God, just watched the synthesis ending. It's morally repugnant.

#30397
v0rt3x22

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The synth ending really creeps me out.

#30398
byne

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legaldinho wrote...

God, just watched the synthesis ending. It's morally repugnant.


I think the worst part is where the husk gets synthesized, and stops attacking, and gets this odd look on its face.

Its like synthesis has given it the cognitive ability to realize the monstrosity it has become.

#30399
Simon_Says

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IT can still live. Maybe only as fancanon, but it's certainly not dead.

No there was no dream sequence. But that's not necessary any more since the Citadel isn't presented as being destroyed.

Anderson, TIM, and Ventboy may or may not be real. But indoctrination is still known to cause waking hallucinations. Hallucinations are also still the best explanation for how Anderson and TIM arrived at that console when there was only one pathway, and for why Hacket only recognizes Shepard as jumping to the Citadel. And Shepard still has a gutshot wound unless they removed that little scene and I didn't notice that.

Harbinger let the Normandy go to use as a ploy to leverage Shepard's emotional attachments against him/her (Remember that Starchild warns that the geth and EDI will be destroyed. It's called emotional blackmail folks). It then let Shepard in because, apparently, the reapers want Shepard to use the Crucible for control or synthesis.The Starchild still poses destruction as being overwhelmingly negative, control as positive, and it practically begs you to pick synthesis.

Note that control and synthesis are actually net gains for the reapers. They both allow the reapers to utterly dominate galactic life, either indirectly through a Shepard construct (which is obviously not Shepard, and is obviously sinister), or directly through synthetic augmentations (like they do husks) and/or through psychological conditioning (they could be able to properly indoctrinate synthetics instead of just crudely reprogramming them.) The reapers -have- lost some of their own in the war against the council-cycle. Control and synthesis at least allow them to get time to regroup, reindoctrinate, and retaliate when the galaxy is again exposed and unwary.

Shepard is still shown as having indoc eyes in Control and Synthesis, not the normal cybernetic eyes renegade Sheps get. Shepard's dreams still match the rachni queen's descriptions of indoctrination.

Control's monologue is sinister (sounds like a what a reaper would say). Synthesis' sounds propagandistic (like, I dunno, Saren/TIM's monologues?). Destruction's is ultimately the most grounded, and honestly the most hopeful imo.

As for EDI/geth. We don't -see- them die. As for the memorial, well. Shepard died once, and came back right? Perhaps EDI can too? Perhaps it's possible that EDI is only -mistaken- for dead and has her name on the memorial. Note that in the breath scene, Shepard wasn't breathing -until that breath-. For all we know, Shepard actually died (or close enough), but came back again. What's to say that other synthetics won't react similarily?

Even if the Starchild wasn't mistaken (it's expanded explanation of the reapers reinforces this possibility actually) and synthetics did die, then wasn't one of the stated themes of ME3 "victory through sacrifice"? Shepard sacrifices a lot in their fight against the reapers. Starchild offers control and synthesis as options to end the war without further sacrifice. But that's emotional blackmail again. If Shepard wants to truly win, they'll have to sacrifice a little more to end the reaper threat for good*.

As for refuse. People ask why Shepard doesn't wake up if they refuse. That's because a) the events weren't a dream and B) taking no action at all is just as bad, maybe even worse than picking the wrong action. The reapers are also still alive and kicking so naturally if Shepard doesn't kill the reapers, the reapers kill Shepard. Simple.

EC hasn't killed IT. I don't know how it stands now. It's certainly weaker than before. Yes with the EC IT can be changed to something much less far-fetched what with its dream sequences, personality projections, and other bollocks, but it was because the original ending was so broken that IT seemed so much better. Now that the literalist ending is so much more reasonable (though still lacking), IT has much less potency.

Whatever the case, IT's not canon. But it's not dead. I still don't like how Bioware still sits on the fence, throws up their hands and refuses to speak conclusively about their endings. I don't like how they didn't take advantage of the fan theory that offered them a way out of their ****storm in style. I don't like how the endings still boil down to A,B, C and a non-standard game over (or rather, three non-standard game overs and C). But at least the EC was competent, if not a brilliant reveal of IT-all-along as I had eagerly hoped for. I'm not loyal to Bioware any more, but at least I can finally move on.

I guess that's what we all wanted. To be able to move on. An end, once and for all.

*Reaper corpses still indoctrinate. Easy sequel hook potential here.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 27 juin 2012 - 12:24 .


#30400
lex0r11

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v0rt3x22 wrote...

The synth ending really creeps me out.



Posted Image



Sorry, really.