55528 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

[quote]Dwailing wrote...

Originally, Destroy was indoctrination while Control and Synthesis were literal.  However, with the EC, they made Destroy literal as WELL, while making the new Rejection indoctrination.  That way, they can say that they didn't actually CHANGE the endings, they just shifted them around a bit.  And honestly, this is the only reason I can think of for the addition of Rejection.  It's like Destroy, only much, MUCH worse from a literal standpoint.  If everything is real, then at least have the cajones to sacrifice SOME of the galaxy instead of ALL of it.

Maybe they added it because everyone wanted to murder the child? Man I just finished EC and have no idea what to think about it. I just don't know :/

[401 Kill]

deltacypresss wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

plfranke wrote...

apparently there was also a change made to the 3rd dream

Are there any videos or other specifics available?

Had something to do with shep's facial expression. i thought it changed as well, but wasn't too sure at the time.

Its rather odd that they would go back and change his facial expression in the dream. It does seem like something fishy is going on

[HellishFiend]

TJBartlemus wrote...

The BioWare team did say it was the end of Shepard's story, so it's not a surprise. Even if you dislike the EC, at least give the BioWare team credit for their hard work.

I believe this reply of mine applies to your post as well....

HellishFiend wrote...

I wouldnt like that. Part of the reason I am so avid about IT is that it transforms the endings from being "thematically revolting" to being "thematically genius". An ending where Synthesis is real betrays the theme of strength in diversity that spans the entire trilogy. An ending where Control is real betrays the theme of the virtues of freedom and the failures of domination that also span the entire trilogy. 

That was the entire point behind my Choose Wisely vid. It portrays the cohesiveness of the themes and how they blend in to each other. The literal endings contemptuously spit upon those themes and justify it with sophistry. 

 

They get no credit from me at all if those endings are real. 

[TJBartlemus]

masster blaster wrote...

Guys what if the rogue Reaper is the one's who created the catalys? I know it's hard ro belive but what else do we have to lose.

Nah, I can believe that Harbinger/starchild is partially telling the truth in the choice just to gain Shepard's trust. Totally sounds like the Reapers MO to have the starchild/harbinger been created to solve the organic/synthetic problem and for it to turn against them. (Sounds like most sci fi movies I've seen) Making them into the first reapers. So pretty much to the Reapers: To protect organics I make synthetics to kill them so they don't get killed by synthetics to protect organics. Circular logic. Thus the cycles.

[llbountyhunter]

 EC at a glance....

 


old woman.... or young maiden? 

[Xd2delo]

Gotta say, was really hoping that the IT would end up being vindicated, but, short of some sort of discovery in the 2 GB (which still seems huge for what amounted to, what 1 hour+ of content?), this seems like the end of the line. The EC was a messy patch job, in my opinion at any rate (the Normandy rescue scene was almost slapstick; Harbinger somehow missed the hovering frigate?). But putting out something after the EC? Aside from what BW has said already, it just kind of would seem quite silly.

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I'm going to bring up an idea that was SORT OF brought up a while back.  At one point, there was speculation that BW was planning to make the Control and Synthesis endings literal while the Destory ending was indoctrination.  Now, that would not surprise me AT ALL.  However, they knew that the endings would be controversial, so they put in very limited, teaser endings to see what kind of reactions they would get.  So, what they decided was that, instead of making Destroy indoctrination and the others literal, they decided to get creative.  They would make the Destroy ending ALSO literal, and would add in a whole NEW decision that would be indoctrination.  That way, thanks to the very ambiguous nature of the orignal Destory ending, they can say that they didn't actually change the endings, they just shifted things around a bit.  So, Destroy ended up being literal, and Rejection became the indoctrination storyline ending (Whenever I talk about indoctrination, I don't mean that the ending LEADS to indoctrination, but rather, makes it clear that, at least in THAT context, the ending sequence was an indoctrination attempt.).  Basically, there are two types of endings, literal and indoctrination.  Originally, Destroy was indoctrination while Control and Synthesis were literal.  However, with the EC, they made Destroy literal as WELL, while making the new Rejection indoctrination.  That way, they can say that they didn't actually CHANGE the endings, they just shifted them around a bit.  And honestly, this is the only reason I can think of for the addition of Rejection.  It's like Destroy, only much, MUCH worse from a literal standpoint.  If everything is real, then at least have the cajones to sacrifice SOME of the galaxy instead of ALL of it.

Edit: Two things, 1: I apologize for the wall of text; 2: I want to address Epyon's point.

When I say Rejection is the indoctrination ending, I don't mean that it leads to Shep being indoctrinated.  I mean that it leads to the end sequence being REVEALED as an indoctrination attempt.  The other endings are still literal, it's just that the Rejection ending leads to Shep fighting off indoctrination.  If you listen to the dialogue, those are the words of someone rejecting indoctrintation.  Honestly, after I chose Rejection, I expected Shepard to wake up any minute.  It sounded like he was rejecting indoctrination and waking up.

I wouldnt like that. Part of the reason I am so avid about IT is that it transforms the endings from being "thematically revolting" to being "thematically genius". An ending where Synthesis is real betrays the theme of strength in diversity that spans the entire trilogy. An ending where Control is real betrays the theme of the virtues of freedom and the failures of domination that also span the entire trilogy.

That was the entire point behind my Choose Wisely vid. It portrays the cohesiveness of the themes and how they blend in to each other. The literal endings contemptuously spit upon those themes and justify it with sophistry. 

I understand that the original endings are thematically revolting, but that doesn't stop some people from liking them, or hating IT enough to think that the alternative is better.  My point is that this is BW's chance to do something truly unique, and their chance to win back a lot of their fanbase.  When have you ever heard of anything where the end is actually both real and symbolic at the same time?  It's something ONLY a game can do.  Movies, books, music, TV shows, theater, etc. none of these art forms can do this.  Only games could have an ending like this, where it is both completely real and completely symbolic at the same time.  To quote Star-Brat, (Never thought I'd be doing THAT outside of mockery. )  "It is an elegant solution."

Modifié par Dwailing, 27 juin 2012 - 03:31 .

[plfranke]

So this ending was made for clarification, they had 3 months yet they did nothing about Anderson getting to the control panel or TIM arriving. And Hackett knowing you're on the Citadel is just wierd. Everyone clearly thinks no one got to the beam yet Hackett receives a datapad saying you made it.

[Dwailing]

Xd2delo wrote...

Gotta say, was really hoping that the IT would end up being vindicated, but, short of some sort of discovery in the 2 GB (which still seems huge for what amounted to, what 1 hour+ of content?), this seems like the end of the line. The EC was a messy patch job, in my opinion at any rate (the Normandy rescue scene was almost slapstick; Harbinger somehow missed the hovering frigate?). But putting out something after the EC? Aside from what BW has said already, it just kind of would seem quite silly.

See my above/below post/s.

[TJBartlemus]

HellishFiend wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

The BioWare team did say it was the end of Shepard's story, so it's not a surprise. Even if you dislike the EC, at least give the BioWare team credit for their hard work.

I believe this reply of mine applies to your post as well....

HellishFiend wrote...

I wouldnt like that. Part of the reason I am so avid about IT is that it transforms the endings from being "thematically revolting" to being "thematically genius". An ending where Synthesis is real betrays the theme of strength in diversity that spans the entire trilogy. An ending where Control is real betrays the theme of the virtues of freedom and the failures of domination that also span the entire trilogy. 

That was the entire point behind my Choose Wisely vid. It portrays the cohesiveness of the themes and how they blend in to each other. The literal endings contemptuously spit upon those themes and justify it with sophistry. 

 

They get no credit from me at all if those endings are real. 

Well all reality is based on perception. Your mind believes it's real, then it happens. (Matrix) So all the endings are the Reapers feeding you images so your mind belives it happened. But where does that leave the breath scene? What about the reject scene? Easter egg? Or something more? All I can say is don't dismiss it off as stupid yet. Something is up BioWare...I only have speculations which is why it's so fun!!

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

I understand that the original endings are thematically revolting, but that doesn't stop some people from liking them, or hating IT enough to think that the alternative is better.  My point is that this is BW's chance to do something truly unique, and their chance to win back a lot of their fanbase.  When have you ever heard of anything where the end is actually both real and symbolic at the same time?  It's something ONLY a game can do.  Movies, books, music, TV shows, theater, etc. none of these art forms can do this.  Only games could have an ending like this, where it is both completely real and completely symbolic at the same time.  To quote Star-Brat, (Never thought I'd be doing THAT outside of mockery. )  "It is an elegant solution."

I would still not be ok with that, and if they did go that route, to me it would just mean that in Control/Synthesis Shepard is simply forever living in his hallucinated dream world while the Shepard in reality is now working for the Reapers. 

One of the reasons I love the ME trilogy is how cohesive the themes are, and the elegance of their portrayal.  The literal endings, as I said, contemptuously spit upon those well-crafted and portrayed themes, and justify it with sophistry. It is a literary travesty worthy of bargain bin paperback books, not a triple-A trilogy like Mass Effect. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 27 juin 2012 - 03:38 .

[XXIceColdXX]

Ive been a big fan of the IT theory, and while still enjoying the thought of it, the reality is i am doubtful that Bioware are going down the IT path.

The 'so be it' line and Shepards abdomen gunshot wound keep me wondering a bit, but not sure.

[ZerebusPrime]

So, regarding the DLC files found in the Extended Cut.

Any future DLC that impacts the ending would have to impact both the unaltered ending and the new DLC. So any special cues found in the EC are probably there to ensure backwards compatibility.

[HellishFiend]

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

The BioWare team did say it was the end of Shepard's story, so it's not a surprise. Even if you dislike the EC, at least give the BioWare team credit for their hard work.

I believe this reply of mine applies to your post as well....

HellishFiend wrote...

I wouldnt like that. Part of the reason I am so avid about IT is that it transforms the endings from being "thematically revolting" to being "thematically genius". An ending where Synthesis is real betrays the theme of strength in diversity that spans the entire trilogy. An ending where Control is real betrays the theme of the virtues of freedom and the failures of domination that also span the entire trilogy. 

That was the entire point behind my Choose Wisely vid. It portrays the cohesiveness of the themes and how they blend in to each other. The literal endings contemptuously spit upon those themes and justify it with sophistry. 

 

They get no credit from me at all if those endings are real. 

Well all reality is based on perception. Your mind believes it's real, then it happens. (Matrix) So all the endings are the Reapers feeding you images so your mind belives it happened. But where does that leave the breath scene? What about the reject scene? Easter egg? Or something more? All I can say is don't dismiss it off as stupid yet. Something is up BioWare...I only have speculations which is why it's so fun!!

The only thing stopping me from dismissing it as stupid is that I still believe IT is true. I'm going to be blunt here. In the event that BW declares the endings real, or fails to ever reveal their true nature, they will have lost my respect. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 27 juin 2012 - 03:43 .

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I understand that the original endings are thematically revolting, but that doesn't stop some people from liking them, or hating IT enough to think that the alternative is better.  My point is that this is BW's chance to do something truly unique, and their chance to win back a lot of their fanbase.  When have you ever heard of anything where the end is actually both real and symbolic at the same time?  It's something ONLY a game can do.  Movies, books, music, TV shows, theater, etc. none of these art forms can do this.  Only games could have an ending like this, where it is both completely real and completely symbolic at the same time.  To quote Star-Brat, (Never thought I'd be doing THAT outside of mockery. )  "It is an elegant solution."

I would still not be ok with that, and if they did go that route, to me it would just mean that in Control/Synthesis Shepard is simply forever living in his hallucinated dream world while the Shepard in reality is now working for the Reapers. 

One of the reasons I love the ME trilogy is how cohesive the themes are and elegance of their portrayal.  The literal endings, as I said, contemptuously spit upon those well-crafted and portrayed themes, and justify it with sophistry. It is a literary travesty worthy of bargain bin paperback books, not a triple-A trilogy like Mass Effect. 

Hey, if you want to interpret it differently, go ahead.  Like the devs said, they don't want to TELL you how to view the endings.  You have to decide for yourself what EXACTLY is going on.  You could argue that if you choose Control or Synthesis, you're still trapped in the hallucination.  Or, if you chose Rejection, you could argue that, assuming I'm right, of course, and it really DOES reveal that this was all an indoctrination attempt, you could say that anything that happens next are the insane thoughts of a dying man, looking for a way to make his death and the death of the entire galaxy mean something.  Even if some endings are TECHNICALLY literal, that doesn't mean YOU can't interpret them differently.  Or if some endings are indoctrination based (As I've said before, not Shepard actually being indoctrinated but learning that the choice was an indoctrination attempt.), YOU could still interpret it differently.

Modifié par Dwailing, 27 juin 2012 - 03:43 .

[TJBartlemus]

How would you guys feel if the BioWare team made the reject scene canon and ran the continued universe on that? I could see them doing that cause of the vagueness about it, Shepard isn't dead, and the galaxy is still fighting the Reapers. Has plenty of potential. Still have yet to see the result of the galaxy, though it is implied that they fail. However organics in the next cycle take heed and win...so not all bad.

[Dwailing]

Huh, I find it weird that during the Synthesis ending, the Reapers have the same markings as everyone else. Aren't they ALREADY organic-synthetic hybrids?

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I understand that the original endings are thematically revolting, but that doesn't stop some people from liking them, or hating IT enough to think that the alternative is better.  My point is that this is BW's chance to do something truly unique, and their chance to win back a lot of their fanbase.  When have you ever heard of anything where the end is actually both real and symbolic at the same time?  It's something ONLY a game can do.  Movies, books, music, TV shows, theater, etc. none of these art forms can do this.  Only games could have an ending like this, where it is both completely real and completely symbolic at the same time.  To quote Star-Brat, (Never thought I'd be doing THAT outside of mockery. )  "It is an elegant solution."

I would still not be ok with that, and if they did go that route, to me it would just mean that in Control/Synthesis Shepard is simply forever living in his hallucinated dream world while the Shepard in reality is now working for the Reapers. 

One of the reasons I love the ME trilogy is how cohesive the themes are and elegance of their portrayal.  The literal endings, as I said, contemptuously spit upon those well-crafted and portrayed themes, and justify it with sophistry. It is a literary travesty worthy of bargain bin paperback books, not a triple-A trilogy like Mass Effect. 

Hey, if you want to interpret it differently, go ahead.  Like the devs said, they don't want to TELL you how to view the endings.  You have to decide for yourself what EXACTLY is going on.  You could argue that if you choose Control or Synthesis, you're still trapped in the hallucination.  Or, if you chose Rejection, you could argue that, assuming I'm right, of course, and it really DOES reveal that this was all an indoctrination attempt, you could say that anything that happens next are the insane thoughts of a dying man, looking for a way to make his death and the death of the entire galaxy mean something.  Even if some endings are TECHNICALLY literal, that doesn't mean YOU can't interpret them differently.  Or if some endings are indoctrination based (As I've said before, not Shepard actually being indoctrinated but learning that the choice was an indoctrination attempt.), YOU could still interpret it differently.

I apologize for being stubborn, but I am still - you guessed it - not ok with that. I went into this expecting to eventually get a definitive answer, which was promised to us prior to release. I went into it expecting a puzzle to be solved, not a fanfic to be written. Failure to ever state the nature of the endings would defeat the entire reason I have participated so heavily in this thread. If this were simply a matter of writing a headcanon, I would have been over and done with it in a week. 

Just to clarify, this is nothing against you or your opinion on the matter. It's just between me and BW. 

[D.Sharrah]

Ok...so I'm thinking about the new endings and there are a few things that I want to get off my chest.  I am going to try and cover one choice at a time (and not all choices will be covered right away - but as I have a chance to think about them) - I do this because I fear if I don't my mind will actually explode.  So...
Synthesis
The explanation - I will give Bioware credit that I thought that they did a better job of explaining exactly what "synthesis" was (at least to them).  I especially appreciated the fact that they did a better job of explaining that "synthesis" was a two way street.  To make it very simple, we both (organics and synthetics) and have something that the other wants.

But in giving this explanation, they have created a new problem.  There examples of this "synthesis" that exist within the lore.  Now perhaps this was intended, and what the Catalyst means we he says that "we" are "ready" - but this will only lead to us getting ahead of ourselves in this discussion.  The examples that I allude to are of course, Shepard, Edi and the Geth (if upgraded with the Reaper Code + Legion Code).  There are other examples of this as well (President Huerta, anyone?), but let's focus on these.  The most obvious is Shepard, the iconic symbol of everything that is organic - but as astutely pointed out by the Catalyst, partly synthetic.  Edi, once a VI evolved into AI that by the end game is coming to grasp with emotions like fear and thanks Shep (at least if Paragoned) for helping her to feel "alive".  Then there is the Geth - let's not forget the image that Legion shows Shep on the Normandy - the upgraded Geth processing core and how it looks "beatiful".  I know that I am not getting into too many details, but I hope that you get the picture.  This form of "synthesis" in many ways is already happening...happening on its own.

Which leads into the next point that is wrong with the "explanation".  When pressed why the Reapers simply haven't already done this (since it is the pinnacle of evolution), the Catalyst feeds us a line about the Reapers trying but failing.  Failing because it was being forced.  Now this is where it gets fun, the Catalyst goes on to say that it won't fail this time because we are "ready".  Ready based on the points that I have mentioned in the post above - and using this as "evidence" that we are already moving towards this singularity.  The Crucible will simply provide a short cut for us.  Didn't we hear something similar from Legion in ME 2?  That the Reapers offered the Geth a shortcut to their evolution - a shortcut that they refused.  Yet we are now supposed to believe that since it is Shep making the choice - that its not forced?  Not to mention the fact that we can't say if we have shown that we are progressing towards this on our own, why not let nature take its course.

The Aftermath - Visually appealing...the voice work of Tricia Helfer, amazing.  Bioware did a bang-up job of creating something that looked beautiful on the surface.  I am not going to rail on what is wrong with the message - that dead horse has already been beaten enough.  But I did want to talk about what I saw and heard.  First, what I heard (and again amazing VA)...it was a repeat of Edi's dialogue throughout the entire game - a development path (that at least my Paragon Shep) had already helped her start walking.  By the end of my game, Edi was already feeling "alive"...to hear her say the same thing, was off-putting.  And what I saw, the sequences of them starting on the DNA and slowly building out to the "person" - was anyone else reminded of the ME 2?  In particular the scenes of the Lazarus Project, and Shep being rebuilt?  Again, visually appropriate given the  circumstance, but it just left me with this empty feeling.  I have seen this...I know this...why does this not seem like the end it should be?

The wall of text is already out of hand...I do apologize.  Please read, digest, respond - if nothing else, I hope that it gets you critically thinking about what else was presented.

David Sharrah

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

Huh, I find it weird that during the Synthesis ending, the Reapers have the same markings as everyone else. Aren't they ALREADY organic-synthetic hybrids?

The dead protoreaper at Cronos station has the same circuitboard markings. 

[Dwailing]

TJBartlemus wrote...

How would you guys feel if the BioWare team made the reject scene canon and ran the continued universe on that? I could see them doing that cause of the vagueness about it, Shepard isn't dead, and the galaxy is still fighting the Reapers. Has plenty of potential. Still have yet to see the result of the galaxy, though it is implied that they fail. However organics in the next cycle take heed and win...so not all bad.

Well, if Rejection is meant to be the "indoctrination" ending (See my previous posts for an explanation 'cause I'm not going to go into this again.), it would make sense for them to role with it.  It would be the easiest ending to go with given that it only has one (assumed) outcome: Shepard beating indoctrination and probably proceeding to kick the Reapers' collective butts.

[D.Sharrah]

Dwailing wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

How would you guys feel if the BioWare team made the reject scene canon and ran the continued universe on that? I could see them doing that cause of the vagueness about it, Shepard isn't dead, and the galaxy is still fighting the Reapers. Has plenty of potential. Still have yet to see the result of the galaxy, though it is implied that they fail. However organics in the next cycle take heed and win...so not all bad.

Well, if Rejection is meant to be the "indoctrination" ending (See my previous posts for an explanation 'cause I'm not going to go into this again.), it would make sense for them to role with it.  It would be the easiest ending to go with given that it only has one (assumed) outcome: Shepard beating indoctrination and probably proceeding to kick the Reapers' collective butts.

But we already know that the bolded is not true...it very clearly states that the Shep cycle loses the war - but that due to Liara's beacon, the next cycle was able to win.

[D.Sharrah]

@Hellish - Haven't had a chance to say this yet...due to my pre-EC hiatus...excellent work on the video (you too Turbo)!

[masster blaster]

TJBartlemus wrote...

How would you guys feel if the BioWare team made the reject scene canon and ran the continued universe on that? I could see them doing that cause of the vagueness about it, Shepard isn't dead, and the galaxy is still fighting the Reapers. Has plenty of potential. Still have yet to see the result of the galaxy, though it is implied that they fail. However organics in the next cycle take heed and win...so not all bad.

                                                                                                                                                                ya but how did they win is what worrys me because if the reapers found out about the crucible you bet they found out the plain liara had.

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I understand that the original endings are thematically revolting, but that doesn't stop some people from liking them, or hating IT enough to think that the alternative is better.  My point is that this is BW's chance to do something truly unique, and their chance to win back a lot of their fanbase.  When have you ever heard of anything where the end is actually both real and symbolic at the same time?  It's something ONLY a game can do.  Movies, books, music, TV shows, theater, etc. none of these art forms can do this.  Only games could have an ending like this, where it is both completely real and completely symbolic at the same time.  To quote Star-Brat, (Never thought I'd be doing THAT outside of mockery. )  "It is an elegant solution."

I would still not be ok with that, and if they did go that route, to me it would just mean that in Control/Synthesis Shepard is simply forever living in his hallucinated dream world while the Shepard in reality is now working for the Reapers. 

One of the reasons I love the ME trilogy is how cohesive the themes are and elegance of their portrayal.  The literal endings, as I said, contemptuously spit upon those well-crafted and portrayed themes, and justify it with sophistry. It is a literary travesty worthy of bargain bin paperback books, not a triple-A trilogy like Mass Effect. 

Hey, if you want to interpret it differently, go ahead.  Like the devs said, they don't want to TELL you how to view the endings.  You have to decide for yourself what EXACTLY is going on.  You could argue that if you choose Control or Synthesis, you're still trapped in the hallucination.  Or, if you chose Rejection, you could argue that, assuming I'm right, of course, and it really DOES reveal that this was all an indoctrination attempt, you could say that anything that happens next are the insane thoughts of a dying man, looking for a way to make his death and the death of the entire galaxy mean something.  Even if some endings are TECHNICALLY literal, that doesn't mean YOU can't interpret them differently.  Or if some endings are indoctrination based (As I've said before, not Shepard actually being indoctrinated but learning that the choice was an indoctrination attempt.), YOU could still interpret it differently.

I apologize for being stubborn, but I am still - you guessed it - not ok with that. I went into this expecting to eventually get a definitive answer, which was promised to us prior to release. I went into it expecting a puzzle to be solved, not a fanfic to be written. Failure to ever state the nature of the endings would defeat the entire reason I have participated so heavily in this thread. If this were simply a matter of writing a headcanon, I would have been over and done with it in a week. 

Just to clarify, this is nothing against you or your opinion on the matter. It's just between me and BW. 

I understand completely.  I'm just trying to figure out how BW could still use IT if the EC is meant to make the original endings literal (And considering how much hard work they put into them, I get the feeling that they ARE intended to be interpreted literally.  Maybe.), while still having room for IT to be a resonable explanation for what's going on.  And I should point out that, from the beginning, BW has said that they don't want to TELL you how to view the endings.  They want you to see the endings, and figure out at least SOME parts of them for yourself.  And as you said, this is also nothing against you personally, you're an awesome guy, I'm just trying to figure out what BW's plan is, and, to me at least, this seems like as good an explanation as any.

Also, perhaps the reason that this seems so reasonable of an explanation to me is that it would be two things.

1. It would be a rather groundbreaking method for creating an ending (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

2. It would probably win back a lot of the fanbase.  Not all of it, but a lot of it, 'cause it shows that BW really cares about how it's fans feel about things.  (Yes, I know it wouldn't win you back, but like I said, it would probably win MOST of the fanbase back since almost everyone would get SOMETHING that they wanted.)

Modifié par Dwailing, 27 juin 2012 - 03:59 .