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[UKillMeLongTime]

PRJimmy415 wrote...

EC actually validates IT, even if only mockingly, by having StarChild break composure and reveal his true voice (A Reaper. . . Perhaps Harbinger?).

Otherwise, it's like a Jessica Merizan stated on Twitter: EC neither confirms/denies IT.

As long as ME3 exists, IT exists. If you like IT: "rejoice", if you hate IT: "deal with it".

those three words sealed it for me when he angrily replied to Shep. Just like if u have low EMS didn't the kid go 'what are you doing here' instead of 'wake up' ?


and it validates a lot of you people here

[plfranke]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I understand that the original endings are thematically revolting, but that doesn't stop some people from liking them, or hating IT enough to think that the alternative is better.  My point is that this is BW's chance to do something truly unique, and their chance to win back a lot of their fanbase.  When have you ever heard of anything where the end is actually both real and symbolic at the same time?  It's something ONLY a game can do.  Movies, books, music, TV shows, theater, etc. none of these art forms can do this.  Only games could have an ending like this, where it is both completely real and completely symbolic at the same time.  To quote Star-Brat, (Never thought I'd be doing THAT outside of mockery. )  "It is an elegant solution."

I would still not be ok with that, and if they did go that route, to me it would just mean that in Control/Synthesis Shepard is simply forever living in his hallucinated dream world while the Shepard in reality is now working for the Reapers. 

One of the reasons I love the ME trilogy is how cohesive the themes are and elegance of their portrayal.  The literal endings, as I said, contemptuously spit upon those well-crafted and portrayed themes, and justify it with sophistry. It is a literary travesty worthy of bargain bin paperback books, not a triple-A trilogy like Mass Effect. 

Hey, if you want to interpret it differently, go ahead.  Like the devs said, they don't want to TELL you how to view the endings.  You have to decide for yourself what EXACTLY is going on.  You could argue that if you choose Control or Synthesis, you're still trapped in the hallucination.  Or, if you chose Rejection, you could argue that, assuming I'm right, of course, and it really DOES reveal that this was all an indoctrination attempt, you could say that anything that happens next are the insane thoughts of a dying man, looking for a way to make his death and the death of the entire galaxy mean something.  Even if some endings are TECHNICALLY literal, that doesn't mean YOU can't interpret them differently.  Or if some endings are indoctrination based (As I've said before, not Shepard actually being indoctrinated but learning that the choice was an indoctrination attempt.), YOU could still interpret it differently.

I apologize for being stubborn, but I am still - you guessed it - not ok with that. I went into this expecting to eventually get a definitive answer, which was promised to us prior to release. I went into it expecting a puzzle to be solved, not a fanfic to be written. Failure to ever state the nature of the endings would defeat the entire reason I have participated so heavily in this thread. If this were simply a matter of writing a headcanon, I would have been over and done with it in a week. 

Just to clarify, this is nothing against you or your opinion on the matter. It's just between me and BW. 

I'm with you hellish. A literal ending would have been fine had it been 10 times beter but there's only one way for bioware redeem themselves. Here's my theory. There is a dlc that would require so many resources that it has to be paid for, but it's mid game. Since no one would have bought it before the ending was released they had to do this. They'll release that dlc and it will eventually be tied to the true ending.

[HellishFiend]

D.Sharrah wrote...

@Hellish - Haven't had a chance to say this yet...due to my pre-EC hiatus...excellent work on the video (you too Turbo)!

Thank you. :happy:

[Gibb_Shepard]

So those who believe the IT is fact are pretty much trolls now, going by the contents of their post. Good to see people aren't still proclaiming the Earth is flat.

[D.Sharrah]

Reposting for the new page...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Ok...so I'm thinking about the new endings and there are a few things that I want to get off my chest.  I am going to try and cover one choice at a time (and not all choices will be covered right away - but as I have a chance to think about them) - I do this because I fear if I don't my mind will actually explode.  So...
Synthesis
The explanation - I will give Bioware credit that I thought that they did a better job of explaining exactly what "synthesis" was (at least to them).  I especially appreciated the fact that they did a better job of explaining that "synthesis" was a two way street.  To make it very simple, we both (organics and synthetics) and have something that the other wants.

But in giving this explanation, they have created a new problem.  There examples of this "synthesis" that exist within the lore.  Now perhaps this was intended, and what the Catalyst means we he says that "we" are "ready" - but this will only lead to us getting ahead of ourselves in this discussion.  The examples that I allude to are of course, Shepard, Edi and the Geth (if upgraded with the Reaper Code + Legion Code).  There are other examples of this as well (President Huerta, anyone?), but let's focus on these.  The most obvious is Shepard, the iconic symbol of everything that is organic - but as astutely pointed out by the Catalyst, partly synthetic.  Edi, once a VI evolved into AI that by the end game is coming to grasp with emotions like fear and thanks Shep (at least if Paragoned) for helping her to feel "alive".  Then there is the Geth - let's not forget the image that Legion shows Shep on the Normandy - the upgraded Geth processing core and how it looks "beatiful".  I know that I am not getting into too many details, but I hope that you get the picture.  This form of "synthesis" in many ways is already happening...happening on its own.

Which leads into the next point that is wrong with the "explanation".  When pressed why the Reapers simply haven't already done this (since it is the pinnacle of evolution), the Catalyst feeds us a line about the Reapers trying but failing.  Failing because it was being forced.  Now this is where it gets fun, the Catalyst goes on to say that it won't fail this time because we are "ready".  Ready based on the points that I have mentioned in the post above - and using this as "evidence" that we are already moving towards this singularity.  The Crucible will simply provide a short cut for us.  Didn't we hear something similar from Legion in ME 2?  That the Reapers offered the Geth a shortcut to their evolution - a shortcut that they refused.  Yet we are now supposed to believe that since it is Shep making the choice - that its not forced?  Not to mention the fact that we can't say if we have shown that we are progressing towards this on our own, why not let nature take its course.

The Aftermath - Visually appealing...the voice work of Tricia Helfer, amazing.  Bioware did a bang-up job of creating something that looked beautiful on the surface.  I am not going to rail on what is wrong with the message - that dead horse has already been beaten enough.  But I did want to talk about what I saw and heard.  First, what I heard (and again amazing VA)...it was a repeat of Edi's dialogue throughout the entire game - a development path (that at least my Paragon Shep) had already helped her start walking.  By the end of my game, Edi was already feeling "alive"...to hear her say the same thing, was off-putting.  And what I saw, the sequences of them starting on the DNA and slowly building out to the "person" - was anyone else reminded of the ME 2?  In particular the scenes of the Lazarus Project, and Shep being rebuilt?  Again, visually appropriate given the  circumstance, but it just left me with this empty feeling.  I have seen this...I know this...why does this not seem like the end it should be?

The wall of text is already out of hand...I do apologize.  Please read, digest, respond - if nothing else, I hope that it gets you critically thinking about what else was presented.

David Sharrah

[Five oH Thre3]

 Anyone else notice how Liara only holds the bar that reads "Commander Shepard" at the end of the Destroy ending, but in the Synthesis/Control endings she actually puts the bar above "ADM David Anderson" Foreshadowing maybe?
Destroy
Control
Synthesis

Modifié par Five oH Thre3, 27 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[paxxton]

Hello! I've just finished the EC and CHOSEN CONTROL.

Modifié par paxxton, 27 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[Dwailing]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

So those who believe the IT is fact are pretty much trolls now, going by the contents of their post. Good to see people aren't still proclaiming the Earth is flat.

Oh, now THIS is original.  A troll calling US the trolls even though we aren't bothering ANYONE with our speculating while HE decides to come in here a ruin a perfectly good run of on topic posts.  But no, WE'RE the trolls for doing absolutely nothing wrong.  Gotta love Literalists! 

[HellishFiend]

plfranke wrote...

I'm with you hellish. A literal ending would have been fine had it been 10 times beter but there's only one way for bioware redeem themselves. Here's my theory. There is a dlc that would require so many resources that it has to be paid for, but it's mid game. Since no one would have bought it before the ending was released they had to do this. They'll release that dlc and it will eventually be tied to the true ending.

Whether it's that, or anything else, honestly I'd be fine as long as it means that Control and Synthesis were not real endings. I still have faith that Bioware knows what theyre doing, but the frustration of having been jerked around by the EC is still fresh. I dont want these wonderfully written themes die the way they did in the literal endings. 

[D.Sharrah]

HellishFiend wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

@Hellish - Haven't had a chance to say this yet...due to my pre-EC hiatus...excellent work on the video (you too Turbo)!

Thank you. :happy:

No...thank you for all the hard work, really!

[Sero303]

The "catalyst"mentions that the creations will always rise against their creators, it is inevitable, ( cue agent smith from the matrix ). But he also hints, never says it word for word, that he/it created the reapers to "represent" his/its creators. He/it created the reapers....CREATED the reapers, so why isn't he/it a victim of this cycle? why hasn't his/its creations turned on him/it? ...nice big hole in the plot.

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

Hello! I've just finished the EC and CHOSEN CONTROL.

Sooo, you chose the scare the crap out of me ending?  Great, just great.  What can I say, Shepard REALLY scares me in that ending.

[HellishFiend]

Five oH Thre3 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Liara only holds the bar that reads "Commander Shepard" at the end of the Destroy ending, but in the Synthesis/Control endings she actually puts the bar above "ADM David Anderson" Foreshadowing maybe?
Destroy
Control
Synthesis

I hope so. 

[TJBartlemus]

Has this occurred to anyone else, but doesn't it seem that Shepard and Anderson look way more injured/beat up in the EC than in the original? Of course being launched out of a "teleporter beam" to the citadel couldn't help.

I am actually glad BioWare added the explanation for the teammate disappearance. It was certainly more personal and theatrical than the original. However I found it weird that the Normandy and Harbinger just looked at each other like they either knew each other or "I'm not done with you." (This is a feeling, not literal. Like the Normandy has eyes or anything...) And I know that Harbinger looked at the Normandy. So why let it go?

[LazyTechGuy]

One thing still going for IT is the Catalyst's insistence that you pick a choice for his demise. You'd think he would be happy that you decided not to remove him, but instead he's angry.

[D.Sharrah]

Anyone seen any tweets asking Merizan what happened to being able to reunite w/ crew/LI?

[HellishFiend]

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

@Hellish - Haven't had a chance to say this yet...due to my pre-EC hiatus...excellent work on the video (you too Turbo)!

Thank you. :happy:

No...thank you for all the hard work, really!

You're welcome.  I'm just happy to share my love for the themes (and that song, for that matter ) with you guys. 

[Dwailing]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Has this occurred to anyone else, but doesn't it seem that Shepard and Anderson look way more injured/beat up in the EC than in the original? Of course being launched out of a "teleporter beam" to the citadel couldn't help.

I am actually glad BioWare added the explanation for the teammate disappearance. It was certainly more personal and theatrical than the original. However I found it weird that the Normandy and Harbinger just looked at each other like they either knew each other or "I'm not done with you." (This is a feeling, not literal. Like the Normandy has eyes or anything...) And I know that Harbinger looked at the Normandy. So why let it go?

I don't know why Harbinger let it go, but I won't deny that it was cool that Shep's squad got evaced on screen.  Also, Garrus was the one who was really injured, and he told me to come back alive even though he was the better shot.  That was awesome.

[D.Sharrah]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Hello! I've just finished the EC and CHOSEN CONTROL.

Sooo, you chose the scare the crap out of me ending?  Great, just great.  What can I say, Shepard REALLY scares me in that ending.

You mean Shepbinger...or is Harpard?

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Hello! I've just finished the EC and CHOSEN CONTROL.

Sooo, you chose the scare the crap out of me ending?  Great, just great.  What can I say, Shepard REALLY scares me in that ending.

LOL. He became a perfect being. Power to shape reality without being corrupted!

[plfranke]

HellishFiend wrote...

plfranke wrote...

I'm with you hellish. A literal ending would have been fine had it been 10 times beter but there's only one way for bioware redeem themselves. Here's my theory. There is a dlc that would require so many resources that it has to be paid for, but it's mid game. Since no one would have bought it before the ending was released they had to do this. They'll release that dlc and it will eventually be tied to the true ending.

Whether it's that, or anything else, honestly I'd be fine as long as it means that Control and Synthesis were not real endings. I still have faith that Bioware knows what theyre doing, but the frustration of having been jerked around by the EC is still fresh. I dont want these wonderfully written themes die the way they did in the literal endings. 

on that note hellish have you seen the control ending? I personally thought it was the best ending taken at face value but even there something was strange about it. Listening to my Shepard Reaper it felt like he had changed. He said things like I'll control the largest army ever and there's wisdom in controlling my enemies. Then he went on to say he'd destroy anyone that got in the way of the many. But isn't that what the reapers were doing from the very beginning?

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Has this occurred to anyone else, but doesn't it seem that Shepard and Anderson look way more injured/beat up in the EC than in the original? Of course being launched out of a "teleporter beam" to the citadel couldn't help.

I am actually glad BioWare added the explanation for the teammate disappearance. It was certainly more personal and theatrical than the original. However I found it weird that the Normandy and Harbinger just looked at each other like they either knew each other or "I'm not done with you." (This is a feeling, not literal. Like the Normandy has eyes or anything...) And I know that Harbinger looked at the Normandy. So why let it go?

I don't know why Harbinger let it go, but I won't deny that it was cool that Shep's squad got evaced on screen.  Also, Garrus was the one who was really injured, and he told me to come back alive even though he was the better shot.  That was awesome.

In my go at it, it was Javik that got blasted and hurt. I found it laughable for anyone to think he would willingly retreat to lick his wounds rather than die trying to stop the Reapers. 

[deltacypresss]

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Hello! I've just finished the EC and CHOSEN CONTROL.

Sooo, you chose the scare the crap out of me ending?  Great, just great.  What can I say, Shepard REALLY scares me in that ending.

LOL. He became a perfect being. Power to shape reality without being corrupted!

no way in hell was that shepard. had his memories sure. More like a mix of reaperbeiber and shepard imo.

[Sero303]

HellishFiend wrote...

Five oH Thre3 wrote...

 Anyone else notice how Liara only holds the bar that reads "Commander Shepard" at the end of the Destroy ending, but in the Synthesis/Control endings she actually puts the bar above "ADM David Anderson" Foreshadowing maybe?
Destroy
Control
Synthesis

I hope so. 

talimancer, the wife hated seeing her in EVERY ending!

[D.Sharrah]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Has this occurred to anyone else, but doesn't it seem that Shepard and Anderson look way more injured/beat up in the EC than in the original? Of course being launched out of a "teleporter beam" to the citadel couldn't help.

I am actually glad BioWare added the explanation for the teammate disappearance. It was certainly more personal and theatrical than the original. However I found it weird that the Normandy and Harbinger just looked at each other like they either knew each other or "I'm not done with you." (This is a feeling, not literal. Like the Normandy has eyes or anything...) And I know that Harbinger looked at the Normandy. So why let it go?

Yeah for the most part I was pretty happy with the pre-beam (conduit) additions...the Harbinger not going after the Normandy is one of the things that still gives me hope for IT...