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[Auralius Carolus]

HellishFiend wrote...

Logic has very specific limitations when it comes to speculating on literature. Within the confines of lore and canon, or in the context of the story itself, the full range of logic is applicable for drawing conclusions or speculations. But when you step outside of both the story and the lore/canon in order to draw up a speculation, logic is not on your side. If it were, you could come up with just about anything and slap a "valid speculation" label on it. The logical process has no foundation when it comes to fiction unless you use established lore and canon.

Urgh, I think I've been given a sign that it is time to retire to my Tempur-pedic: I'm beginning to comprehend "canon" as "******". I suppose I've been listening to too much Jerry Clower on ****** hunting.

Anyway, the problem here is not us breaching logical confines, it's the devs expanding on them at whim. You get a lot of breathing room with a fiction based on a hyper-advanced multimillion-year old race of transbiological machines.

[Starbuck8]

plfranke wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

plfranke wrote...
"You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people."
Just to name a few, where is Shepard when taking the breath? Why did the Normandy crash? How did Anderson get to the control panel before me? How was TIM controlling both of us? And what made Hackett think we were there when they just said Hammer was wiped out and no one made it to the beam?
"The presence of the Rachni has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers."
In my playthrough and many others I'm sure it literally would have made no difference whether the Rachni were there or not. They are shown in no cutscenes whatsoever not mentioned and have minimal war asset value.

That's... pretty damning. Hopefully someone grills them for answers at SDCC.

We hoped for the same thing at another convention (name escapes me).  The audience seemed pre-screened and didn't ask a single 'hard question'.  Which caused a huge uproar on the forums, to say the least.

You're talking about pax and yeah I saw that it's amazing that they have been able to avoid answering for those statements.

Guess we'll have to set up a plant at SDCC, with fake "safe" questions and secret hard-hitting IT questions!

[Andromidius]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Logic has very specific limitations when it comes to speculating on literature. Within the confines of lore and canon, or in the context of the story itself, the full range of logic is applicable for drawing conclusions or speculations. But when you step outside of both the story and the lore/canon in order to draw up a speculation, logic is not on your side. If it were, you could come up with just about anything and slap a "valid speculation" label on it. The logical process has no foundation when it comes to fiction unless you use established lore and canon.

Urgh, I think I've been given a sign that it is time to retire to my Tempur-pedic: I'm beginning to comprehend "canon" as "******". I suppose I've been listening to too much Jerry Clower on ****** hunting.

Anyway, the problem here is not us breaching logical confines, it's the devs expanding on them at whim. You get a lot of breathing room with a fiction based on a hyper-advanced multimillion-year old race of transbiological machines.

And yet... somehow... they went way over the limits of already very flexible lore-logic.

Incredible really.  I doubt I could come up with a plot as crazy as ME3 from a literal perspective.  And I'm a writer!

[HellishFiend]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Logic has very specific limitations when it comes to speculating on literature. Within the confines of lore and canon, or in the context of the story itself, the full range of logic is applicable for drawing conclusions or speculations. But when you step outside of both the story and the lore/canon in order to draw up a speculation, logic is not on your side. If it were, you could come up with just about anything and slap a "valid speculation" label on it. The logical process has no foundation when it comes to fiction unless you use established lore and canon.

Urgh, I think I've been given a sign that it is time to retire to my Tempur-pedic: I'm beginning to comprehend "canon" as "******". I suppose I've been listening to too much Jerry Clower on ****** hunting.

Anyway, the problem here is not us breaching logical confines, it's the devs expanding on them at whim. You get a lot of breathing room with a fiction based on a hyper-advanced multimillion-year old race of transbiological machines.

I was referring specifically to the use of logic to justify the speculation that Shep has a built in defib which causes the noise you hear upon his arrival on the Citadel. Without any lore or canon to back it up, logic has equally weak strength either way when it comes to speculating on any given subject. 

[Auralius Carolus]

Ytook wrote...

Can anybody tell me (or link me to if it's easier) the results of the data mining of the EC?

I don't think that there's been a full datamining yet, but a popular early result is some code for a plot involving a "Rogue Reaper" turning on its kin. Seeing as I haven't checked the source file myself, I cannot comment on its validity.

On another note, people in this forum are horrible about not giving credit to their sources.

[v0rt3x22]

Anyone else wonder if IT still works - now that we have a new (Reject) ending?

I'm really hitting my head against the desk here because of that - since the EC is optional. It creates a split - those who do not play it (and don't have a reject ending) - and those who do.

[Unschuld]

Starbuck8 wrote...

Guess we'll have to set up a plant at SDCC, with fake "safe" questions and secret hard-hitting IT questions!

Well that's left-coast, so it certainly won't be me. I wish.

[Andromidius]

HellishFiend wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Logic has very specific limitations when it comes to speculating on literature. Within the confines of lore and canon, or in the context of the story itself, the full range of logic is applicable for drawing conclusions or speculations. But when you step outside of both the story and the lore/canon in order to draw up a speculation, logic is not on your side. If it were, you could come up with just about anything and slap a "valid speculation" label on it. The logical process has no foundation when it comes to fiction unless you use established lore and canon.

Urgh, I think I've been given a sign that it is time to retire to my Tempur-pedic: I'm beginning to comprehend "canon" as "******". I suppose I've been listening to too much Jerry Clower on ****** hunting.

Anyway, the problem here is not us breaching logical confines, it's the devs expanding on them at whim. You get a lot of breathing room with a fiction based on a hyper-advanced multimillion-year old race of transbiological machines.

I was referring specifically to the use of logic to justify the speculation that Shep has a built in defib which causes the noise you hear upon his arrival on the Citadel. Without any lore or canon to back it up, logic has equally weak strength either way when it comes to speculating on any given subject. 

Indeed.  It would be as logical to jump to the conclusion that Shep is being revived by a medic with a Defibrilator and the sound is piercing into the dream.

Tempting...

[Auralius Carolus]

Andromidius wrote...

And yet... somehow... they went way over the limits of already very flexible lore-logic.

Incredible really.  I doubt I could come up with a plot as crazy as ME3 from a literal perspective.  And I'm a writer!

Likewise. They managed to pull off most of the Reaper lore with colors, but their origin story and the Catalyst are detremental IMO.

[HellishFiend]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Anyone else wonder if IT still works - now that we have a new (Reject) ending?

I'm really hitting my head against the desk here because of that - since the EC is optional. It creates a split - those who do not play it (and don't have a reject ending) - and those who do.

Actually if you think about it, in IT context we have no way of knowing what the results of the indoc attempt would be in the case of the "Reject" choice. So it really doesnt affect IT's core viability either way... 

[plfranke]

Andromidius wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Logic has very specific limitations when it comes to speculating on literature. Within the confines of lore and canon, or in the context of the story itself, the full range of logic is applicable for drawing conclusions or speculations. But when you step outside of both the story and the lore/canon in order to draw up a speculation, logic is not on your side. If it were, you could come up with just about anything and slap a "valid speculation" label on it. The logical process has no foundation when it comes to fiction unless you use established lore and canon.

Urgh, I think I've been given a sign that it is time to retire to my Tempur-pedic: I'm beginning to comprehend "canon" as "******". I suppose I've been listening to too much Jerry Clower on ****** hunting.

Anyway, the problem here is not us breaching logical confines, it's the devs expanding on them at whim. You get a lot of breathing room with a fiction based on a hyper-advanced multimillion-year old race of transbiological machines.

And yet... somehow... they went way over the limits of already very flexible lore-logic.

Incredible really.  I doubt I could come up with a plot as crazy as ME3 from a literal perspective.  And I'm a writer!

the funny thing about that is I actually liked the explanation of synthesis from the catalyst, because I was like okay so what he means is synthetics will be given more understanding like organics and organics will have it easier when using implants and stuff like that. then I see that husk and I knew indoctrination theory was all that was left.

[Andromidius]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Anyone else wonder if IT still works - now that we have a new (Reject) ending?

I'm really hitting my head against the desk here because of that - since the EC is optional. It creates a split - those who do not play it (and don't have a reject ending) - and those who do.

I'd say it fits perfectly.  Especially with Starbinger's reaction to that choice.  In a fit of frustration, he just kills you.

[FellishBeast]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

a couple of weird things I noticed, When Shepard wakes up on the citadel, there's a strange sound.
Still doesn't clarify how Anderson got to the control panel first, let alone up the beam first. Hackett doesn't mention Anderson going into the Citadel, just Shepard.

If you reject the Catalyst, his voice goes like Harbinger.

All they had to do was show Shepard being reunited with her squad and this would all be over.

You kidding me? I don't care about that. I care about the ending staying true and resolving the themes presented in the entire series up to this point.

[Auralius Carolus]

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Logic has very specific limitations when it comes to speculating on literature. Within the confines of lore and canon, or in the context of the story itself, the full range of logic is applicable for drawing conclusions or speculations. But when you step outside of both the story and the lore/canon in order to draw up a speculation, logic is not on your side. If it were, you could come up with just about anything and slap a "valid speculation" label on it. The logical process has no foundation when it comes to fiction unless you use established lore and canon.

Urgh, I think I've been given a sign that it is time to retire to my Tempur-pedic: I'm beginning to comprehend "canon" as "******". I suppose I've been listening to too much Jerry Clower on ****** hunting.

Anyway, the problem here is not us breaching logical confines, it's the devs expanding on them at whim. You get a lot of breathing room with a fiction based on a hyper-advanced multimillion-year old race of transbiological machines.

I was referring specifically to the use of logic to justify the speculation that Shep has a built in defib which causes the noise you hear upon his arrival on the Citadel. Without any lore or canon to back it up, logic has equally weak strength either way when it comes to speculating on any given subject. 

Indeed.  It would be as logical to jump to the conclusion that Shep is being revived by a medic with a Defibrilator and the sound is piercing into the dream.

Tempting...

So that's why you guys dismissed my observation that the humming James heard was coming from a long, smooth, cylindrical device vibrating across the engineering deck...

[Krogan Warlord]

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

[plfranke]

FellishBeast wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

a couple of weird things I noticed, When Shepard wakes up on the citadel, there's a strange sound.
Still doesn't clarify how Anderson got to the control panel first, let alone up the beam first. Hackett doesn't mention Anderson going into the Citadel, just Shepard.

If you reject the Catalyst, his voice goes like Harbinger.

All they had to do was show Shepard being reunited with her squad and this would all be over.

You kidding me? I don't care about that. I care about the ending staying true and resolving the themes presented in the entire series up to this point.

rofl couldn't have said it better

[FellishBeast]

Ytook wrote...

Can anybody tell me (or link me to if it's easier) the results of the data mining of the EC?

This should keep you busy.

[HellishFiend]

plfranke wrote...

the funny thing about that is I actually liked the explanation of synthesis from the catalyst, because I was like okay so what he means is synthetics will be given more understanding like organics and organics will have it easier when using implants and stuff like that. then I see that husk and I knew indoctrination theory was all that was left.

And he is summoned once again!

[Unschuld]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Anyone else wonder if IT still works - now that we have a new (Reject) ending?

I'm really hitting my head against the desk here because of that - since the EC is optional. It creates a split - those who do not play it (and don't have a reject ending) - and those who do.

IT still works, if you want it to, but I wouldn't say the most popular form of the theory (pre-to-post-citadel hallucination) fits anymore, at least not as it was imagined. Anderson is all but established as dead, and I don't see them turning the related scenes into a hallucination or implying so.

[Andromidius]

plfranke wrote...
the funny thing about that is I actually liked the explanation of synthesis from the catalyst, because I was like okay so what he means is synthetics will be given more understanding like organics and organics will have it easier when using implants and stuff like that. then I see that husk and I knew indoctrination theory was all that was left.

Yeah, what is described and what we get don't gel.  If everyone really was 50/50 organic and synthetic then you'd probably not be able to tell at a glance.  And you'd certainly not be like neopolitan ice cream with the halves being easily distinguishable, they'd be intermixed at the deepest atomic level.

Its just a dreadful concept.  Basically people get minor cybernetic implants, and machines get emotions.  Seemingly that's it!

[HellishFiend]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Indeed.  It would be as logical to jump to the conclusion that Shep is being revived by a medic with a Defibrilator and the sound is piercing into the dream.

Tempting...

So that's why you guys dismissed my observation that the humming James heard was coming from a long, smooth, cylindrical device vibrating across the engineering deck...

LOL! I remember that! 

[HellishFiend]

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

Yes, the "catalyst" employs heavy use of sophistry when justifying his conclusions. It's a shame that you cant really call him on it. You can reject it, but not call him on it. 

[plfranke]

Unschuld wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Anyone else wonder if IT still works - now that we have a new (Reject) ending?

I'm really hitting my head against the desk here because of that - since the EC is optional. It creates a split - those who do not play it (and don't have a reject ending) - and those who do.

IT still works, if you want it to, but I wouldn't say the most popular form of the theory (pre-to-post-citadel hallucination) fits anymore, at least not as it was imagined. Anderson is all but established as dead, and I don't see them turning the related scenes into a hallucination or implying so.

Well if you think about it even that's odd because they're positive that Anderson is dead but unsure Shepard is. Why is that? It almost is as if the player is the one putting up the plaque if you think about it. I

[SubAstris]

dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
.
No? I agree with the final bit at least, except for the dreams which I don't think are good evidence for indoctrination

In terms of how the dreams relate to the experiences of Object Rho's subjects, it's perfectly viable.

In what way?

I'm sure you've discussed this before, seeing as how you've been around this thread for a long time.  But okay:

“Guard: Kenson’s acting strange lately. Like she doesn’t care about the Project anymore. And I know I’m not the only one having those dreams. The Reapers are coming she says. But I’m not sure if I’m hearing fear or hope in her voice.”

http://masseffect.wi...al_(assignment) 

Those nightmares can be interpreted in several ways, symptoms being one of them. 

And I would argue that the dreams are just nightmares where Shepard's worst enemies are shown, the Reapers.

[Unschuld]

HellishFiend wrote...

And he is summoned once again!

I don't know why everyone downplays synthesis so much. Those husks looked happy to me!