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[dsl08002]

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

I still don´t understand how bioware didn´t add a dialouge where shepard argue with the catalyst saying that organics and syntetics can exist in peace where he draw a conclusion from qurians and the geth.

[Andromidius]

HellishFiend wrote...

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

Yes, the "catalyst" employs heavy use of sophistry when justifying his conclusions. It's a shame that you cant really call him on it. You can reject it, but not call him on it. 

And the game REALLY punishes you for it.

I have to wonder, if you never did Liara's time capsule dialogue...  Does the scene change at all?

[HellishFiend]

Unschuld wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

And he is summoned once again!

I don't know why everyone downplays synthesis so much. Those husks looked happy to me!

Yes, clearly they have reason to be happy to be alive now. 

[plfranke]

HellishFiend wrote...

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

Yes, the "catalyst" employs heavy use of sophistry when justifying his conclusions. It's a shame that you cant really call him on it. You can reject it, but not call him on it. 

The real shame is, he's kind of right. Had they showed some kind of example of the quarians giving the geth something that would have made it an evensided debate that synthetics need organics and we need them but all we really see is the geth helping the quarians. The geth have advanced far beyond them.

[plfranke]

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

Yes, the "catalyst" employs heavy use of sophistry when justifying his conclusions. It's a shame that you cant really call him on it. You can reject it, but not call him on it. 

And the game REALLY punishes you for it.

I have to wonder, if you never did Liara's time capsule dialogue...  Does the scene change at all?

I did mine without seeing it and this is exactly what she said. If you're hearing this then there is still hope. We build the crucible but it didn't work we united the galaxy but it wasn't enough hopefully you won't make our mistakes this is the full account of our war with the reapers.

[Andromidius]

dsl08002 wrote...

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

I still don´t understand how bioware didn´t add a dialouge where shepard argue with the catalyst saying that organics and syntetics can exist in peace where he draw a conclusion from qurians and the geth.

Or pointing out the Catalyst's apparent hypocrisy, considering it basically admits to being a having rebelled against its own creators yet now seems to want to stop it ever happening again by repeatedly inflicting the same fate upon the creators of other advance synthetic life.

Or that its creators are also its created, and they haven't rebelled against him.

Ow, my head.

[Unschuld]

plfranke wrote...
Well if you think about it even that's odd because they're positive that Anderson is dead but unsure Shepard is. Why is that? It almost is as if the player is the one putting up the plaque if you think about it. I

Good catch.

I think the only way I could think to explain it would be that Anderson died well before the Crucible fired, so if he had monitored life signs they would have picked up that he was dead. Shepard essentially "dies" or goes MIA after all the fleet has left. Dunno. I'd like to say your explanation makes more sense (it does), but somehow I still don't see Bioware pulling a 180 on this.

Modifié par Unschuld, 27 juin 2012 - 09:28 .

[Andromidius]

plfranke wrote...
I did mine without seeing it and this is exactly what she said. If you're hearing this then there is still hope. We build the crucible but it didn't work we united the galaxy but it wasn't enough hopefully you won't make our mistakes this is the full account of our war with the reapers.

Exactly the same then.

So much for choices mattering...

[OneWithTheAssassins]

So I'm close to the end on my current playthrough. Does the EC answer are questions on the IT and the destroy ending? Does it turn out good, with the LI and everything?

[Unschuld]

HellishFiend wrote...

Unschuld wrote...


I don't know why everyone downplays synthesis so much. Those husks looked happy to me!

Yes, clearly they have reason to be happy to be alive now. 

Banshee sex! Banshee sex for EVERYONE!!

[SubAstris]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Here's one question for you guys. If Shepard rejects, why doesn't he still wake up anyway? Listen to his words, he's not giving up, he's going to fight, just not with the help from the catalyst. He stands erect, like in destroy and states how free he is.If IT were in play, that would be breaking free any day, because you didn't pick any reaper options. Yet, we don't see Shepard wake up. Instead we all die, the next cycle gets the message and prepare the right way.

Hadn't thought of that, pretty good. If IT were true, we would have the same breath scene as destroy instead of this presumption that the species will not be able to activate the Crucible and will lose if you pick "Refuse"

You kinda just reiterated why refuse wpuldmt work.... shepard gave up on the mental  battle. Saying "oh i want to fight, but not like this" is the same as giving up.

No, it is about fighting on his terms by defending what is great about organics and not letting his ideals be swept aside by the Catalyst. "Giving up" would be just shooting himself.

If IT is true, the Catalyst (or Harbinger-in-disguise) wants you to choose just two options: Control or Synthesis. Those are the only ones that will lead in Shepard's indoctrination (according to ITers), since these are the only endings in which we see the indoc. eyes and being given up to the Reapers. Refuse and Destroy are the opposite because they see the refusal of the acceptance of the Catalyst's new information, turning your back on indoctrination. It is not about giving up the mental fight, it is about positively rejecting the Catalyst and by extension the Reapers

[Andromidius]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

So I'm close to the end on my current playthrough. Does the EC answer are questions on the IT and the destroy ending? Does it turn out good, with the LI and everything?

Don't read spoilers.

Though I really want to give you a hug

[HellishFiend]

plfranke wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

Yes, the "catalyst" employs heavy use of sophistry when justifying his conclusions. It's a shame that you cant really call him on it. You can reject it, but not call him on it. 

The real shame is, he's kind of right. Had they showed some kind of example of the quarians giving the geth something that would have made it an evensided debate that synthetics need organics and we need them but all we really see is the geth helping the quarians. The geth have advanced far beyond them.

I disagree. The narrative even goes out of its way to show that Geth rationality remains fallible even with the Reaper code upgrades. Legion makes a few bad judgement calls, and admits they are no better than organics when it comes to decision making. 

The Quarians as a whole simply made some bad calls, is all. Same with the Salarians. I highlight the role they play in the portrayal of those themes in my video. 

[SubAstris]

I'm really struggling to find an answer for the ending message if IT is true. It is so clearly aimed at the player and it basically says that Shepard has become a "legend". How can that be true at all? Or is this another lie/red herring?

[Andromidius]

SubAstris wrote...

If IT is true, the Catalyst (or Harbinger-in-disguise) wants you to choose just two options: Control or Synthesis. Those are the only ones that will lead in Shepard's indoctrination (according to ITers), since these are the only endings in which we see the indoc. eyes and being given up to the Reapers. Refuse and Destroy are the opposite because they see the refusal of the acceptance of the Catalyst's new information, turning your back on indoctrination. It is not about giving up the mental fight, it is about positively rejecting the Catalyst and by extension the Reapers

Essentially, yes.  Though the themes of the story support Destroy and Reject too, being that they are defying the will of the Reapers.

Even if Reject is completely pointless, and is as forfilling as a one night stand with Morinth.  After she's turned into a Banshee.

[Andromidius]

Modifié par Andromidius, 27 juin 2012 - 09:34 .

[Unschuld]

SubAstris wrote...

I'm really struggling to find an answer for the ending message if IT is true. It is so clearly aimed at the player and it basically says that Shepard has become a "legend". How can that be true at all? Or is this another lie/red herring?

Maybe.

[plfranke]

HellishFiend wrote...

plfranke wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

Yes, the "catalyst" employs heavy use of sophistry when justifying his conclusions. It's a shame that you cant really call him on it. You can reject it, but not call him on it. 

The real shame is, he's kind of right. Had they showed some kind of example of the quarians giving the geth something that would have made it an evensided debate that synthetics need organics and we need them but all we really see is the geth helping the quarians. The geth have advanced far beyond them.

I disagree. The narrative even goes out of its way to show that Geth rationality remains fallible even with the Reaper code upgrades. Legion makes a few bad judgement calls, and admits they are no better than organics when it comes to decision making. 

The Quarians as a whole simply made some bad calls, is all. Same with the Salarians. I highlight the role they play in the portrayal of those themes in my video. 

I'm not talking about judgement or bad calls I'm talking about the geth's technology listen to what tali says "What would have taken years the geth are doing right now" or something like that

[Andromidius]

SubAstris wrote...

I'm really struggling to find an answer for the ending message if IT is true. It is so clearly aimed at the player and it basically says that Shepard has become a "legend". How can that be true at all? Or is this another lie/red herring?

4th wall break.  As before with the original DLC message which they've shyed away from now.

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Andromidius wrote...

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

So I'm close to the end on my current playthrough. Does the EC answer are questions on the IT and the destroy ending? Does it turn out good, with the LI and everything?

Don't read spoilers.

Though I really want to give you a hug

Then do I choose reject? I heard about it. What makes me happly ever after with Tali damnit!?
And does this mean IT is wrong?

[Unschuld]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

So I'm close to the end on my current playthrough. Does the EC answer are questions on the IT and the destroy ending? Does it turn out good, with the LI and everything?

Don't read spoilers.

Though I really want to give you a hug

Then do I choose reject? I heard about it. What makes me happly ever after with Tali damnit!?
And does this mean IT is wrong?

Dude just... play. 

Go with what you feel is best. Care not what others think, do what you must.






oh, and Destroy.

[SubAstris]

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

If IT is true, the Catalyst (or Harbinger-in-disguise) wants you to choose just two options: Control or Synthesis. Those are the only ones that will lead in Shepard's indoctrination (according to ITers), since these are the only endings in which we see the indoc. eyes and being given up to the Reapers. Refuse and Destroy are the opposite because they see the refusal of the acceptance of the Catalyst's new information, turning your back on indoctrination. It is not about giving up the mental fight, it is about positively rejecting the Catalyst and by extension the Reapers

Essentially, yes.  Though the themes of the story support Destroy and Reject too, being that they are defying the will of the Reapers.

Even if Reject is completely pointless, and is as forfilling as a one night stand with Morinth.  After she's turned into a Banshee.

Ok, that's the point I was trying to make

[HellishFiend]

plfranke wrote...

I'm not talking about judgement or bad calls I'm talking about the geth's technology listen to what tali says "What would have taken years the geth are doing right now" or something like that

Those things kind of go hand in hand though, dont they? At this point in the story, Geth technology is really no more advanced than any other race. And even if their capacity and rate of growth is higher than that of organics, that in no way justifies the belief that they will eventually and inevitably destroy all organics. 

[Andromidius]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

So I'm close to the end on my current playthrough. Does the EC answer are questions on the IT and the destroy ending? Does it turn out good, with the LI and everything?

Don't read spoilers.

Though I really want to give you a hug

Then do I choose reject? I heard about it. What makes me happly ever after with Tali damnit!?
And does this mean IT is wrong?

No, it doesn't.

And pick whichever you think is best.  Just be ready for another hug from the lovely people of this thread.

[v0rt3x22]

SubAstris wrote...

I'm really struggling to find an answer for the ending message if IT is true. It is so clearly aimed at the player and it basically says that Shepard has become a "legend". How can that be true at all? Or is this another lie/red herring?

Dunno....it's very strange. 

I think BioWare just wanted to keep it open to the player to believe whatever we want to believe.
Thus I think they won't give us a definate answer - but the fact that your surroundings change after you get hit by the beam - and the strange conversation with Anderson on the citadel - who's trying to explain to you his surroundings - just doesn't make sense in literal terms.

If we are supposed to believe whatever we want to believe - then I feel very bad for IT supporters - because they won't find any closure this way.

I see us discussing IT until the end of the year this way...