55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Jadebaby]

FellishBeast wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

a couple of weird things I noticed, When Shepard wakes up on the citadel, there's a strange sound.
Still doesn't clarify how Anderson got to the control panel first, let alone up the beam first. Hackett doesn't mention Anderson going into the Citadel, just Shepard.

If you reject the Catalyst, his voice goes like Harbinger.

All they had to do was show Shepard being reunited with her squad and this would all be over.

You kidding me? I don't care about that. I care about the ending staying true and resolving the themes presented in the entire series up to this point.

I meant it in the sense that it would rule out IT

[SubAstris]

Unschuld wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I'm really struggling to find an answer for the ending message if IT is true. It is so clearly aimed at the player and it basically says that Shepard has become a "legend". How can that be true at all? Or is this another lie/red herring?

Maybe.

Maybe it's a lie? It does seem strange though if IT is true to put it in, surely the rest of the evidence speaks for itself? Especially since it is directed straight at the reader. But I guess if you still believe IT you are in continual limbo

[HellishFiend]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

a couple of weird things I noticed, When Shepard wakes up on the citadel, there's a strange sound.
Still doesn't clarify how Anderson got to the control panel first, let alone up the beam first. Hackett doesn't mention Anderson going into the Citadel, just Shepard.

If you reject the Catalyst, his voice goes like Harbinger.

All they had to do was show Shepard being reunited with her squad and this would all be over.

You kidding me? I don't care about that. I care about the ending staying true and resolving the themes presented in the entire series up to this point.

I meant it in the sense that it would rule out IT

And Fellish meant that if IT is ruled out, it would mean that ME's story is a failure. 

[plfranke]

SubAstris wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Here's one question for you guys. If Shepard rejects, why doesn't he still wake up anyway? Listen to his words, he's not giving up, he's going to fight, just not with the help from the catalyst. He stands erect, like in destroy and states how free he is.If IT were in play, that would be breaking free any day, because you didn't pick any reaper options. Yet, we don't see Shepard wake up. Instead we all die, the next cycle gets the message and prepare the right way.

Hadn't thought of that, pretty good. If IT were true, we would have the same breath scene as destroy instead of this presumption that the species will not be able to activate the Crucible and will lose if you pick "Refuse"

You kinda just reiterated why refuse wpuldmt work.... shepard gave up on the mental  battle. Saying "oh i want to fight, but not like this" is the same as giving up.

No, it is about fighting on his terms by defending what is great about organics and not letting his ideals be swept aside by the Catalyst. "Giving up" would be just shooting himself.

If IT is true, the Catalyst (or Harbinger-in-disguise) wants you to choose just two options: Control or Synthesis. Those are the only ones that will lead in Shepard's indoctrination (according to ITers), since these are the only endings in which we see the indoc. eyes and being given up to the Reapers. Refuse and Destroy are the opposite because they see the refusal of the acceptance of the Catalyst's new information, turning your back on indoctrination. It is not about giving up the mental fight, it is about positively rejecting the Catalyst and by extension the Reapers

Personally I don't know what to believe. The catalyst tells you he was unaware that the plans for the crucible had survived yet in the last cycle it was still kicking he couldnt have not known. He certainly wouldn't have just allowed it to slip away again. So I find it hard to believe that liara's time capsule survives and the next cycle goes on to use the data to defeat the reapers. But it seems like the kind of thing a reaper who's indoctrinating you would want you to believe.

[Ytook]

@Auralias Carolus
@FellishBeast

Thanks a bunch.

[Jadebaby]

HellishFiend wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

a couple of weird things I noticed, When Shepard wakes up on the citadel, there's a strange sound.
Still doesn't clarify how Anderson got to the control panel first, let alone up the beam first. Hackett doesn't mention Anderson going into the Citadel, just Shepard.

If you reject the Catalyst, his voice goes like Harbinger.

All they had to do was show Shepard being reunited with her squad and this would all be over.

You kidding me? I don't care about that. I care about the ending staying true and resolving the themes presented in the entire series up to this point.

I meant it in the sense that it would rule out IT

And Fellish meant that if IT is ruled out, it would mean that ME's story is a failure. 

Well what themes is he talking about then?

[Candidate 88766]

Don't know if this has been posted yet:



But this basically debunks the idea that the IT is Bioware's intended interpretation.

For the scene with the Normandy crew standing in front of the memorial wall on the crashed Normandy, the Normandy has to have crashed, in which case the Crucible had to have activated, in which case the endings were real and not hallucinations.

Bioware very clearly intends for the endings to be viewed as real. The purpose of the breathe scene is not to act as a hint for the IT, but to provide just enough hope for a Shepard-LI reunion for people to headcanon it.

[Turbo_J]

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Krogan Warlord wrote...

I don't get it the Catalyst says that "Synthetics will always rebel against their creators."Yet Organics&Synthetics are in peace in this cycle.

Yes, the "catalyst" employs heavy use of sophistry when justifying his conclusions. It's a shame that you cant really call him on it. You can reject it, but not call him on it. 

And the game REALLY punishes you for it.

I have to wonder, if you never did Liara's time capsule dialogue...  Does the scene change at all?

I may try that while I'm huting for clips.

One thing I'll say after letting things sink in is that the scene with Liara's version of the 'beacons' may be the only litteral content in the ending. The problem I still have with that howerver, is she had already sent them 'out and away'. weeks or even months before.

Did she go find them all and toss in an update? Oh, no... given the fact they probably could not get out of Sol. The reapers have the Citadel. When they have it, THEY control the relay network.

The relays slowly get turned off throughout the game. Did anyone ask why... or even how if, in most cases they didn't yet have control of the Citadel?

I'm looking at you Bailey. <_<  I hope it's not you, but...

[SubAstris]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I'm really struggling to find an answer for the ending message if IT is true. It is so clearly aimed at the player and it basically says that Shepard has become a "legend". How can that be true at all? Or is this another lie/red herring?

Dunno....it's very strange. 

I think BioWare just wanted to keep it open to the player to believe whatever we want to believe.
Thus I think they won't give us a definate answer - but the fact that your surroundings change after you get hit by the beam - and the strange conversation with Anderson on the citadel - who's trying to explain to you his surroundings - just doesn't make sense in literal terms.

If we are supposed to believe whatever we want to believe - then I feel very bad for IT supporters - because they won't find any closure this way.

I see us discussing IT until the end of the year this way...

They made it open...by making it seem like Shepard was probably not indoctrinated all along with that ending message?

Your surroundings do change, as they often change for many other games. I don't find the conversation between two severely injured men who are both losing inordinate amount of bloods that "strange". The only bit I have problems with is the chasm, but to be honest I wouldn't expect them to change it in the EC because it would murk up the whole scene

Probably, although it will really be the hardcore ITers who will be doing it. Most are leaving in their droves now

[plfranke]

HellishFiend wrote...

plfranke wrote...

I'm not talking about judgement or bad calls I'm talking about the geth's technology listen to what tali says "What would have taken years the geth are doing right now" or something like that

Those things kind of go hand in hand though, dont they? At this point in the story, Geth technology is really no more advanced than any other race. And even if their capacity and rate of growth is higher than that of organics, that in no way justifies the belief that they will eventually and inevitably destroy all organics. 

but what the catalyst says is it will cause conflict and that the conflict will eventually result in the destruction of both it has changed from before. I think it's inevitable that synthetics will technologically surpass organics which will cause conflict down the line and somehow lead to the destruction of both or one or the other. apparently geth get harvested too if you listen to him.

[SubAstris]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Don't know if this has been posted yet:



But this basically debunks the idea that the IT is Bioware's intended interpretation.

For the scene with the Normandy crew standing in front of the memorial wall on the crashed Normandy, the Normandy has to have crashed, in which case the Crucible had to have activated, in which case the endings were real and not hallucinations.

Bioware very clearly intends for the endings to be viewed as real. The purpose of the breathe scene is not to act as a hint for the IT, but to provide just enough hope for a Shepard-LI reunion for people to headcanon it.

BW IZ LYING! DEY IS GOIN MAKE "TRUE EC" IN MARCH 2013 WHICH SHOWS IT 2 B TRUE!!!

[monrapias]

so with the new ending, the normandy is docket to the citadel right?
And hacked could radio shepard, so joker should be able to as well, so they could have picked up shepard, and used normandy's guns to shot at the destroy ending (if you wanted to take that road)

but then we would not get the cliffhanger.

[HellishFiend]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

And Fellish meant that if IT is ruled out, it would mean that ME's story is a failure. 

Well what themes is he talking about then?

All of them. All 4 of the endings violate at least one of the themes in a highly anti-climactic fashion. And all of the themes are violated in at least one of the 4 endings. Synthesis and Control violate multiple themes to such extremes that it actually ruins the entire story.

[Andromidius]

plfranke wrote...
Personally I don't know what to believe. The catalyst tells you he was unaware that the plans for the crucible had survived yet in the last cycle it was still kicking he couldnt have not known. He certainly wouldn't have just allowed it to slip away again. So I find it hard to believe that liara's time capsule survives and the next cycle goes on to use the data to defeat the reapers. But it seems like the kind of thing a reaper who's indoctrinating you would want you to believe.

Yeah, Starbinger claiming to not know much about the history of the Crucible was very weak.  Considering the Reapers' standard tactic is a suprise assault where they capture all the information of the organics using the Citadel right off the bat, not to mention their love of indoctrinated sleeper agents, I find it very hard to believe they'd not know about it.  And considering how well they clean up evidence of previous civilisations each time, not finding the plans for the Crucible seem...  Very weak.

I do agree with Starbinger on one point though - the Crucible makes sense if its just a big battery.  Thus the builders would know its full of immense power, but not have a clue what its supposed to do.

But do I beleive that he's in the dark about it, and isn't involved?  Not for a second.  He's a devious little bugger, and I'm pretty sure he started it off and made sure it survived from Cycle to Cycle.  Its the perfect sabotage, a way to waste your enemy's resources and make sure they never get to actually use it for themselves and also misdirect any other tactics they may have employed.

[Turbo_J]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Don't know if this has been posted yet:



But this basically debunks the idea that the IT is Bioware's intended interpretation.

For the scene with the Normandy crew standing in front of the memorial wall on the crashed Normandy, the Normandy has to have crashed, in which case the Crucible had to have activated, in which case the endings were real and not hallucinations.

Bioware very clearly intends for the endings to be viewed as real. The purpose of the breathe scene is not to act as a hint for the IT, but to provide just enough hope for a Shepard-LI reunion for people to headcanon it.

That's crap. Conventional FTL, crash (the ship still crashed. it was damaged when shown on the planet). So they fix that, then fly back to Sol under convential FTL. Sure, leave Shep in the rocks for a few months. Just don't expect more breathing.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 27 juin 2012 - 09:46 .

[v0rt3x22]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Don't know if this has been posted yet:



But this basically debunks the idea that the IT is Bioware's intended interpretation.

For the scene with the Normandy crew standing in front of the memorial wall on the crashed Normandy, the Normandy has to have crashed, in which case the Crucible had to have activated, in which case the endings were real and not hallucinations.

Bioware very clearly intends for the endings to be viewed as real. The purpose of the breathe scene is not to act as a hint for the IT, but to provide just enough hope for a Shepard-LI reunion for people to headcanon it.

Yea in a weird way - as I said before - the game seems to work both ways now - IT way and no IT way - and that might have been BioWare's intention...but its bugging me. <_<

[Candidate 88766]

SubAstris wrote...

I'm really struggling to find an answer for the ending message if IT is true. It is so clearly aimed at the player and it basically says that Shepard has become a "legend". How can that be true at all? Or is this another lie/red herring?

I've been saying that since release, and I've still yet to see an actual argument as to why the game tells you "Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat", (which simply would not be true if the IT was true), if it is not true.

Some people try to dismiss it as a DLC advert, or as something outside the story (and yet use stuff outside the story like game file names as 'evidence'), or as a lie, and yet they can never back this up. 

[plfranke]

SubAstris wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Don't know if this has been posted yet:



But this basically debunks the idea that the IT is Bioware's intended interpretation.

For the scene with the Normandy crew standing in front of the memorial wall on the crashed Normandy, the Normandy has to have crashed, in which case the Crucible had to have activated, in which case the endings were real and not hallucinations.

Bioware very clearly intends for the endings to be viewed as real. The purpose of the breathe scene is not to act as a hint for the IT, but to provide just enough hope for a Shepard-LI reunion for people to headcanon it.

BW IZ LYING! DEY IS GOIN MAKE "TRUE EC" IN MARCH 2013 WHICH SHOWS IT 2 B TRUE!!!

You're better than that subastris

[Andromidius]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

But this basically debunks the idea that the IT is Bioware's intended interpretation.

No, it really doesn't.

And I should stop replying to anti-ITers.  Its only going to annoy me.  This'll be the last time.

[v0rt3x22]

I'm still wondering why there are assets in the game labelled "Dream" - when they were clearly not from the Dream sequences.

[HellishFiend]

plfranke wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

plfranke wrote...

I'm not talking about judgement or bad calls I'm talking about the geth's technology listen to what tali says "What would have taken years the geth are doing right now" or something like that

Those things kind of go hand in hand though, dont they? At this point in the story, Geth technology is really no more advanced than any other race. And even if their capacity and rate of growth is higher than that of organics, that in no way justifies the belief that they will eventually and inevitably destroy all organics. 

but what the catalyst says is it will cause conflict and that the conflict will eventually result in the destruction of both it has changed from before. I think it's inevitable that synthetics will technologically surpass organics which will cause conflict down the line and somehow lead to the destruction of both or one or the other. apparently geth get harvested too if you listen to him.

Except we already know that Geth do not in fact get harvested. We learn in ME1 that Sovereign hates the Geth and only tolerates their existence because he needs their help. In ME2 we learn that Harbinger is entirely disdainful of the Geth. And you also cant logically come to the conclusion that a faster pace of growth will lead to conflict at all, let alone that it will result in the destruction of all organics. 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Hm, presence of Breath Scene in high EMS Destroystill a little too odd from literal interpretation.

Normandy was damaged, had to make repairs, wouldn't have been done overnight, would have taken weeks (or maybe just one week, speculating).

Takes place after all the epilogue just before the credits so how did Shepard survive through it all without food/water/with traumatic injuries for so long?

Why not play it before the epilogue scenes and put it to rest?

Why does the rubble still look like London rubble?

Why are there Reaper cables when there aren't any in London?

Why ONLY give this scene through Destroy, imported/NG+?

Possible they left it as is so ITers can still think on IT. Possible we still aren't seeing the big picture. Possible we only see half of it. Speculations.

[Candidate 88766]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Yea in a weird way - as I said before - the game seems to work both ways now - IT way and no IT way - and that might have been BioWare's intention...but its bugging me. <_<

The problem is that they said they'd leave it vague, but the fact that:

1. There is no 'real' ending with Shepard breaking free of indoctrination and going on to win, or with Shepard falling under the Reapers' control.

2. They spent three months expanding what would be dream sequences if the IT was true.

What they've done is decided to not debunk the IT, but by not adding anything to it they have in a roundabout way shown very clearly that they never intended it from the start.

By expanding only on the literal interpretation of the ending, they've shown that they consider the literal interpretation to be the correct interpretation, or rather the interpretation they intended.

[HellishFiend]

plfranke wrote...

You're better than that subastris

No, he really isnt. If you know someone's a troll, theyre not a very good troll. 

[Andromidius]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
I've been saying that since release, and I've still yet to see an actual argument as to why the game tells you "Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat", (which simply would not be true if the IT was true), if it is not true.

Grrr....can't resist.

Either you're a liar or you've not looked.  A bunch of us have stated repeatedly that message is a blantant 4th wall break!  How obvious does something have to be?