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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#31226
SubAstris

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v0rt3x22 wrote...

I dunno - why choose control or synthesis at all?
It goes against everything that Shepard is and has been throughout the last 2 games.

Since the first game his primary thought was to wipe out the reapers.....why take anything that Starchild says for granted and suddenly change his mind?

It doesn't add up.


This is how it goes from my own personal opinion. Destruction of the Reapers is the only credible way in the time before the end that we can end the Reaper threat (remember that is the key). Control is not considered because it only ends with indoctrination (as shown by TIM). Synthesis is seen as not possible. However, when the Catalyst arrives on the scene, it all changes, because the Catalyst with the Crucible really does have the power to make Control and Synthesis viable options. Therefore, Shepard is left with a decision, to pick one of the three and choose the ultimate fate of the universe

#31227
SubAstris

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Sir Fluffykins wrote...

I would have said IT was blown away, but then Shepard comes flying out the teleporter and when Anderson calls him he -jerks- awake while a "drill" noise plays. Very strange.


I think this has been explained by BW as Shepard's synthetics at work. I'm not completely sure but you will have to look at their tweets

#31228
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Humakt83 wrote...

PoorBleedingMe wrote...

Are you seroius? Did you actually play the game? Did you ever talk to EDI in the cockpit? There was a dialogue, where EDI informed Shepard about perfecting the Reaper-IFF for Normandy. 

REAPER IFF. Does it ring any bells for you? Normandy was invisible for the Reapers.


Oh, that's why all the Reapers enter the solar system when Normandy uses the Reaper IFF to scan resources. 

Maybe you want to ponder upon this invisible thing again.


Look up what EDi mention sin regards to Chronos Station. She mentions active scans will give them away to Cerberus.

Stealth Drive and IFF dont hide an active scan which the Reaper can pick up and find the Normandy.

#31229
Arian Dynas

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PoorBleedingMe wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

@ PoorBleedingMe

Easy enough. They glow bright ****ing yellow and stick out like enormous yellow **** me lights on a videogame boss.

Oh and the eyes on the Reaper Fetus too, for example.


Why so sure that these yellow lights are eyes, not just some headlamps? (just using pro-IT-like rethorics now)


You're being brusque, rude, and offensive, when I personally have offered you no insult. That's unecessary. I ask you stop doing that. 

Now, on to the issue you raised, we're sure they're eyes since the Dev team has referred to them as eyes, they are CALLED eyes when fighting the Human Form Reaper, and when Harbinger is acting through an agent the eyes of said agent glow bright yellow, much like Sovereign's did when controlling Saren (Saren's eyes went bright red, just like Sovereign's hologram.) THAT is using the sort of logic we're fans of.

#31230
PoorBleedingMe

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Arian Dynas wrote...

PoorBleedingMe wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

@ PoorBleedingMe

Easy enough. They glow bright ****ing yellow and stick out like enormous yellow **** me lights on a videogame boss.

Oh and the eyes on the Reaper Fetus too, for example.


Why so sure that these yellow lights are eyes, not just some headlamps? (just using pro-IT-like rethorics now)


You're being brusque, rude, and offensive, when I personally have offered you no insult. That's unecessary. I ask you stop doing that. 

Now, on to the issue you raised, we're sure they're eyes since the Dev team has referred to them as eyes, they are CALLED eyes when fighting the Human Form Reaper, and when Harbinger is acting through an agent the eyes of said agent glow bright yellow, much like Sovereign's did when controlling Saren (Saren's eyes went bright red, just like Sovereign's hologram.) THAT is using the sort of logic we're fans of.


No offense meant. Really.

Did you notice Harbinger floating away just before Shepard wakes under the beam? Pick up zone clear.

#31231
v0rt3x22

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I'm still confused why anyone would trust the kid....

This explains it pretty well:

The Eruptionist wrote...

But why believe anything the Star-kid says? There is no reason whatsoever. I can never pick anything other than destroy because that kid is the King of the Reapers.

The Reapers have killed trillions of organics over billions of years in the most violent, sadistic way possible. They mocked and spoke condescendingly to Shepard referring to humans as 'genetic mutations'. I have no reason to trust that kid and thus no reason to even listen to it. It has no proof of its claims either. 


Modifié par v0rt3x22, 27 juin 2012 - 11:02 .


#31232
Salient Archer

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-sigh- has any news come in about Shepard's survival in the perfect destroy ending?

#31233
paxxton

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*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, the breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*

Modifié par paxxton, 27 juin 2012 - 11:23 .


#31234
SubAstris

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v0rt3x22 wrote...

I'm still confused why anyone would trust the kid....

This explains it pretty well:

The Eruptionist wrote...

But why believe anything the Star-kid says? There is no reason whatsoever. I can never pick anything other than destroy because that kid is the King of the Reapers.

The Reapers have killed trillions of organics over billions of years in the most violent, sadistic way possible. They mocked and spoke condescendingly to Shepard referring to humans as 'genetic mutations'. I have no reason to trust that kid and thus no reason to even listen to it. It has no proof of its claims either. 


Just because his actions are dispical doesn't mean he is lying in this respect. It is not like he is concealing what he is actually doing, he says very plainly that the Reapers have killed many trillions in countless cycles. He plays the role of the "messenger", he is the archetypal "deus ex machina" coming done to reveal to everyone. With IT, there is no closure on the plot. If everything that he says is shown in the narrative to be untrue, you would have a point not to trust him. However we can only go with what happens in the narrative itself and it shows that things do turn out well. Of course, you can believe that the EC cutscenes were all but a dream, but that begs the question why would any company spend 3 months on practically useless dream scenes instead of devoting time to making a true ending?

#31235
SubAstris

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paxxton wrote...

*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, tthe breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*


At least you're being honest

#31236
paxxton

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SubAstris wrote...

paxxton wrote...

*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, tthe breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*


At least you're being honest

But I still have hope because BioWare didn't remove all the clues we found that point to IT. They just extended the ending (extended the dream to be even harder for people to distinguish it from reality). Only time will show if they are planning on Mass Effect 4.

Modifié par paxxton, 27 juin 2012 - 11:29 .


#31237
Raistlin Majare 1992

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paxxton wrote...

*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, the breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*


Negative, there can be no stepping back, no retreat, no stepping forward and no attacking reaper forces. :P

But really how can I look at this ending litterally with the enormous plotholes and problems with the ending which Bioware had 3.5 months to fix, but dident do.

Even more so they themselves said EC would not confirm or deny IT, so until someone can disprove it in its entirety I am sticking with IT. Better than having to believe in two endings which go against everything we have seen and been told over the cause of 3 games.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 27 juin 2012 - 11:33 .


#31238
Salient Archer

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paxxton wrote...

*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, the breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*

I have to admit I'm feeling much the same. BioWare had the perfect opertunity to do something completley mind blowing, special and unique in the game world and dare I say they might have even created art but instead they chose to blow it by bending over to the whims of corporate management whose only desire is to pander to the simpleminded masses.

Sure theres still things to speculate on but they only feel like surface trivialities opposed to the intricate tapestry that it should have been, my only hope is that the 'reject' ending could one day carry the weight I was hoping it would; When I had first seen it as a choice I cheered; when I heard the Starchild's voice become aggressive and baritone I gave a standing yell of victory and then reality came along and crushed it all when I realised that it was just the the "none of the above" option in a series with a multiple choice ending.


Oh well, At least I still have Arkham City...:whistle:

#31239
waldstr18

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so guess this is how it looks like when people have delusions. no idt in the extended endings, but some of you are still not convinced they were wrong.

#31240
Humakt83

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<data>You know, whenever we discover something amazing like that, I wonder what else might be out there... or even right under our noses.</data>

#31241
Raistlin Majare 1992

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waldstr18 wrote...

so guess this is how it looks like when people have delusions. no idt in the extended endings, but some of you are still not convinced they were wrong.


Maybe because Bioware said that EC would neither confirm or deny IT? Which is exactly what happened. 

#31242
Rifneno

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Bah. I'm finding it very hard to stay away. From the IT community, I mean. Not BW. Definitely not BW. As someone that's spent a few hundred bucks on ME merchandise just as a thank you to BW, I feel outright betrayed. There's only two ways I can see it being: either they purposely ruined their story in a ******-poor attempt to create something "deep" that keeps fans talking for years, or they're milking the cash cow by dragging things out and refusing the finish stories when they claimed so they can sell ME4 without having to actually write something more. Either of those just... disgust me. But you guys... the IT regulars, are still awesome. Intelligent conversation about RPG stories on the internet is like water in a desert. And damn is it hard to walk away from an oasis. Even if it is crawling with... "things" now.

byne wrote...

So, after beating Dawnguard, I am disappointed in two things:


Hey, quick question regarding that. PC gamer, I've got to wait until Microsoft decides I can play. Because it's not like this "Windows" thing is also a Microsoft product or... okay, sorry, I'll get to the point. Dawnguard. Is it more "80% evil, 20% neutral/good" content like the rest of Skyrim? I know you can play either pro or anti vampire, but is the anti-vampire side like the the Dark Brotherhood where instead of a big line of quests you get 2 minutes of combat? I never play evil characters and I'm wondering whether I should look forward to DG or now.

plfranke wrote...

So guys just wondering. Whether you're IT or literalist I don't see how the extended cut did anything helpful. I see the same things that annoyed me to begin with yet I see quite a few people talking about how it was a stroke of genius and they couldn't have asked for anything better. thoughts on this?


I don't get it either man. This thing was free and I still want a damn refund.

Andromindius wrote...

2/ The Normandy rescue. It was stupid on multiple levels. Firstly, a Mako appears out of nowhere to almost hit you and your team. No-one is hit, and yet they are both wounded. Shepard stops mid-charge to go back for them, huddles behind the wrecked Mako and calls in the Normandy. Which arrives almost instantly. Your teammates then board, and then seem suprised that they are being told to retreat. And then the Normandy flies off. With Harbinger not firing a single beam at it. Yeah.


You forgot that it took Harbinger a while to get there. Gives perspective on the Normandy's "I'm right here" thing. Normandy is a hare and Harbinger is a tortoise apparently. It's hilarious that people actually think the ending makes sense with garbage like this. It's just as bad as it ever was. Guys, if you think EC killed IT by closing the plot holes in the ending, don't quit your day job to start a PI business. Chief Clancy Wiggum would notice some of this crap.

4/ Added Shepard being popped out of the conduit beam in the tunnel. No idea what that was supposed to add. Then moved Anderson's voice a little bit ahead so he's reporting things before Shepard is there already.


Shepard's still laying on his ass after getting puked out of the teleporter when Anderson's telling him "I followed you up." How did Shepard not notice Anderson 2 centimeters behind him? Lord, Shepard is getting as bad at noticing stuff as the literalists.

6/ The Catalyst has more dialogue. Cool, I guess. But he's relying even more on circular logic then ever before, dodges questions, gives weird answers with no foreshadowing or logic to them, and generally acts like a deceitful little sod as par normal.


I gotta admit, I loved "So you're just an AI?" "In the sense that you're just an animal." Ooo, you're a snarky little hallucination aren't you?

Remember that "we're not changing the endings" nonsense? How is it that no one has pointed out they changed Starbinger's entire motives! They cared enough about the perversion of science that is synthesis but they didn't care enough to keep the Reapers' supposed motivations, one of the most if not THE biggest question of this entire series? What does that tell everyone?

Also, is it really a coincidence that they added dialogue from Starbinger saying he's the collective mind of all the Reapers at the same time they "accidentally" leaked a few select lines from an upcoming DLC about a rogue Reaper, something that wouldn't be possible if they had one collective mind? Even if we didn't already know that wasn't true.
"Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies." - Legion's take on Sovereign from his contact with the geth
"We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness." - Sovereign

9/ Speaking of Destroy, notice how they said it wouldn't necessarily kill EDI or the Geth via Twitter? Well, scrap that - they die regardless. Though Shepard on the other hand...


You know, if the ending isn't indoctrination, am I the only one who wouldn't want my Shepard to wake up? I sacrificed EDI, the geth, and who knows what other AI's that I'd never met. That was genocide, pure and simple. Even if I had good reason for picking it over the other choices, how could I ever even look at Joker again? The woman he loves, the woman who told me it's because of me that she truly feels alive... I killed her. The geth are equally great. Look at Legion, despite the geth thinking organics would always be aggressive to them he didn't blame them. "It's a function of your hardware" he said. There was no judgment. Hell, he donated money to a charity for victims of the heretic's attack on Eden Prime. And I killed their entire race. Even if all this was for the best of reasons, there's no way I could live with myself.

10/ Control. Again, Starbinger is mad if you stand up to him but he's perfectly okay with you taking his job. Erm. Okay. Not to mention it panned out like a really bad fanfiction with the Reapers suddenly turning all nice and rebuilding everything. And GodShep. /shudder


That dialogue was... look back at old Reaper dialogue. Especially Sovereign's. Shepard sounds just like Sovereign, just with a nicer tone.
"Immortal. Eternity. Infinite. The man I was said these words but only now do I understand them." - Shepbinger
"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure." - Sovereign
"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension." - Sovereign
He also talks about being a guardian. Isn't that what Starbinger was called in the data files or something? The way Shepard talks about "the man I was" clearly shows this isn't our Shepard. He doesn't embody the same beliefs. Ask yourself why they added a "no, I reject all these" option that I've never seen anyone say they wanted but the control ending doesn't have an option to send the Reapers into a star or black hole, something many, many people said they wanted. My opinion, it's because control makes Shepard into just another Reaper with the same goals and beliefs.

15/ Why, if we take it all as it is... Does Shepard still wake up in rubble? And why if you pick Destroy do they hesitate to put up Shepard's name on the memorial board - how are they unsure of if Shep is dead?


Here's another: how do they know that Anderson and Shepard are dead? If they still have communication with Earth and such then they should know Shepard is alive in the high EMS destroy. If they aren't, then they have no way of knowing the status of either of them. The only way I can see it making sense is if it's in Shepard's head and the hesitation Liara shows on destroy is Shepard wondering if he's truly dead.

byne wrote...

Both of my squadmates were covered in blood. Someone take EDI. I want to know if she gets covered in oil or something, or if there is literally any reason for EDI to be taken away on the Normandy.


EDI, you have to go get help! You're hurt! Don't worry, I won't destroy all synthetic life while you're gone or anything.

#31243
Harorrd

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I still think its a dream, because Harbringer allowed normandy to land next to the beam, And a few seconds ago Andersson said that air support is imposible because of the interferance of the beam

#31244
paxxton

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Salient Archer wrote...

paxxton wrote...

*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, the breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*

I have to admit I'm feeling much the same. BioWare had the perfect opertunity to do something completley mind blowing, special and unique in the game world and dare I say they might have even created art but instead they chose to blow it by bending over to the whims of corporate management whose only desire is to pander to the simpleminded masses.

Sure theres still things to speculate on but they only feel like surface trivialities opposed to the intricate tapestry that it should have been, my only hope is that the 'reject' ending could one day carry the weight I was hoping it would; When I had first seen it as a choice I cheered; when I heard the Starchild's voice become aggressive and baritone I gave a standing yell of victory and then reality came along and crushed it all when I realised that it was just the the "none of the above" option in a series with a multiple choice ending.


Oh well, At least I still have Arkham City...:whistle:

Did you know that you can reject the choice by shooting the Starchild?

#31245
waldstr18

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of course they said that. just like one of my arguments against the idt did. they are running a business making business decisions. wouldnt be that smart to alienate the indoctrination crowd completely. they have probably read some posts in here as well, so they knew, nuts will be nuts, and theyll find a way to still be able to believe.

anyways, gotta go. but ill be back later reading your answer if you choose to respond. which isnt necessary, wasnt a challenge or something. just dont want to be inpolite. lala, enjoy.

#31246
Silhouett3

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SubAstris wrote...

This is how it goes from my own personal opinion. Destruction of the Reapers is the only credible way in the time before the end that we can end the Reaper threat (remember that is the key). Control is not considered because it only ends with indoctrination (as shown by TIM). Synthesis is seen as not possible. However, when the Catalyst arrives on the scene, it all changes, because the Catalyst with the Crucible really does have the power to make Control and Synthesis viable options. Therefore, Shepard is left with a decision, to pick one of the three and choose the ultimate fate of the universe


Wait, so because of the Crucible Reapers have even more power than ever and you are saying now is the time to trust them, the time to “Embrace Perfection” ?

#31247
Salient Archer

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paxxton wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

paxxton wrote...

*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, the breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*

I have to admit I'm feeling much the same. BioWare had the perfect opertunity to do something completley mind blowing, special and unique in the game world and dare I say they might have even created art but instead they chose to blow it by bending over to the whims of corporate management whose only desire is to pander to the simpleminded masses.

Sure theres still things to speculate on but they only feel like surface trivialities opposed to the intricate tapestry that it should have been, my only hope is that the 'reject' ending could one day carry the weight I was hoping it would; When I had first seen it as a choice I cheered; when I heard the Starchild's voice become aggressive and baritone I gave a standing yell of victory and then reality came along and crushed it all when I realised that it was just the the "none of the above" option in a series with a multiple choice ending.


Oh well, At least I still have Arkham City...:whistle:

Did you know that you can reject the choice by shooting the Starchild?

Did it on my second playthrough... :devil: I was actually going to go pick destroy but then felt the sudden urge to turn around and shoot at the smug bastard, damn was I surpised when he put his big boy voice on and stormed out.

#31248
paxxton

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The strangest thing is that the Reapers seem to spare the Normandy twice. At the beginning and at the end. Even though it's in visual range and just single shot would destroy it.

#31249
v0rt3x22

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I found some interesting similarities to "The Matrix":

http://social.biowar.../index/12800937

#31250
Raistlin Majare 1992

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paxxton wrote...

The strangest thing is that the Reapers seem to spare the Normandy twice. At the beginning and at the end. Even though it's in visual range and just single shot would destroy it.


The start can be explained to an extent. The Reapers couldnt detect the Normandy until it is in visual range and landing on a planet as well as making fast turns means lowering thier own mass, in case of very rapid turns in combat situations this lowering of mass can be dangerous according to the codex, now imagine a rapid turn while the Reaper is also on the ground.

Possibly no Reaper had guns turned in a way to hit the Normandy at Vancouver and couldnt turn fast enough to bring it in range.

Dosent explain Harbinger in the end though.