55528 réponses à ce sujet

[ulrichsson]

I still claim Shepard is buried under the Mako that hits him and everything after that is hallucination. Would also explain the breathing scene at the end.

Sigh, a man can dream ...

[paxxton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

*SIGH* Honestly, I hoped for IT to be revealed in the EC and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. The extended ending seems even more literal than the original one. Actually, the breath scene after Destroy serves the exact same role as the transcendence scene in Control (Shepard lives on). Maybe we should take BioWare's words more seriously and don't read between lines too much. *SIGH*

Negative, there can be no stepping back, no retreat, no stepping forward and no attacking reaper forces.

But really how can I look at this ending litterally with the enormous plotholes and problems with the ending which Bioware had 3.5 months to fix, but dident do.

Even more so they themselves said EC would not confirm or deny IT, so until someone can disprove it in its entirety I am sticking with IT. Better than having to believe in two endings which go against everything we have seen and been told over the cause of 3 games.

For a minute, I thought that the original ending was actually made too simplistic by mistake but then all the IT hints remain in the EC and even some new are added (Starchild's voice after rejecting the choice). If the voice change was just for show, it would be really cheap to do it. I'm confused.

Modifié par paxxton, 27 juin 2012 - 11:58 .

[The Eruptionist]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

I'm still confused why anyone would trust the kid....

This explains it pretty well:

The Eruptionist wrote...

But why believe anything the Star-kid says? There is no reason whatsoever. I can never pick anything other than destroy because that kid is the King of the Reapers.

The Reapers have killed trillions of organics over billions of years in the most violent, sadistic way possible. They mocked and spoke condescendingly to Shepard referring to humans as 'genetic mutations'. I have no reason to trust that kid and thus no reason to even listen to it. It has no proof of its claims either. 

I just happened to be looking in this thread a saw you quoted me. I'd like to expand on that a bit more since I just learned that there is a 'refuse ending'.

If I knew I could refuse at the time then I would have but I missed the dialogue prompt. Even saying that; the central problems of the ending remained. The only way it could have been removed was through IT.

Those problems are A) there is zero reason to trust the Star-kid so all choices barring refusal means you essentialy accept what he says as true (even to a certain extent, destroy) The choice to refuse was not accompanied by Shepard asking the kid to explain himself and provide truth for his claims. That is the reason I would refuse what he says but the dialogue was absent and thus the whole point of not accepting his logic was lost.

[WinterCrow]

Well, so it has ended.

In the end they didn't really deny IT, but for me they killed the mood of it. After getting the so called "closure" I no longer feel like shouting "Wake up Shepard!" anymore. And of course we will never have new gameplay, or a Harbinger battle or whatever. Too bad...

Have I been finally Indoctrinated?

As for the EC... it was okay, I guess. If this had been in the original game I would've even liked it, but after 4 months of waiting and after seeing IT grow stronger... I cannot be satisfied with the EC. It was a nice attempt though, and for free, I guess I'll give them that, and it was definately way more than I expected.

IT might not be dead, but I really hoped to see the most awesome plot twist in a videogame ever, and that won't happen. I guess I'll say goodbye to you guys. I haven't been very active around it, so many won't even remember my nickname lol, but I've been watching for a long time

It's been really nice. Best wishes to you all.

P.D: funny how in my first playthrough I couldn't pick any option, the need for reject was so strong... I really wanted to see the destroy ending, cause it was the only valid one for me all along, so I played the ending once again to see it, and I ALMOST shot the spacekid again. Took all my willpower not to do so

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

The Eruptionist wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

I'm still confused why anyone would trust the kid....

This explains it pretty well:

The Eruptionist wrote...

But why believe anything the Star-kid says? There is no reason whatsoever. I can never pick anything other than destroy because that kid is the King of the Reapers.

The Reapers have killed trillions of organics over billions of years in the most violent, sadistic way possible. They mocked and spoke condescendingly to Shepard referring to humans as 'genetic mutations'. I have no reason to trust that kid and thus no reason to even listen to it. It has no proof of its claims either. 

I just happened to be looking in this thread a saw you quoted me. I'd like to expand on that a bit more since I just learned that there is a 'refuse ending'.

If I knew I could refuse at the time then I would have but I missed the dialogue prompt. Even saying that; the central problems of the ending remained. The only way it could have been removed was through IT.

Those problems are A) there is zero reason to trust the Star-kid so all choices barring refusal means you essentialy accept what he says as true (even to a certain extent, destroy) The choice to refuse was not accompanied by Shepard asking the kid to explain himself and provide truth for his claims. That is the reason I would refuse what he says but the dialogue was absent and thus the whole point of not accepting his logic was lost.

Yeah and refuse the way I way I saw it was more Shepard not wanting to die and as such not beeing able to make the hard choice in the end.

[Lat2oo5]

I have been thinking in the (literal) endings and I cannot be satfisfied with any of them. I mean, I chose destroy and a part of me is regreting that. I dont feel I win the war.
Control? Reaper Oligarchy.
Synthesis? What about the collectors? What about not being organic anymore? Moral issues.
Destroy? The caos could appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.
And refusal? The cycle goes on.
So there is no good ending from my point of view, only for the Reapers. And we were warned about this from ME1: it is impossible to stop them.

Modifié par Lat2oo5, 27 juin 2012 - 12:10 .

[Fingertrip]

Shepard breathing doesnt' make any sense. He's still in London, and it wasn't really explained how he got there. And also, it's all shown AFTER the epilogue, which seems to indicate that Shepard was presumably lying in rubbles for a good chunk of days, possibly even weeks, seeing as everyone managed to settle down in the epilogue and start rebuilding with quite a good pace.

It really doesn't add up to go back to the past after showcasing the future-stuff. Would have been more ideal to keep time-frame of the game in a coherent pacing so to say.

And seriously, the "SO BE IT" from the Catalyst is just a kick in the ground, as if it's charade is over, and no more mr.nice guy, seeing as it was trying to smooth-talk with a child's voice, and not it's actual one. I mean, it'd be pretty hard to take the child serious if it used the Reaper-voice and convey and want people to pick control/synthesis.

I still can't let go the fact that the music-tunes towards the end is all messed up. Control is just sinister and dark, not a very uplifting and happy-music that you managed to save the galaxy from the threat of the reapers, and use them as protective guardians. Synthesis just seems to find the uncertain future-vibe coupled with abit of hope.

The Destroy has the most uplifting tune out of all them. Yet, you sacrificed supposedly EDI, the Geth- the Mass Relays for a uncertain amount of time- and of course, supposedly so again- yourself. (Yet, that wasn't the case, seeing as only partial-synthetics would be able to repair their damage).

[Nauks]

Agreed, the people who kept this thread alive during these months of IT limbo gave so many of us renewed hope and love for the game/s, I've personally enjoyed 2 playthroughs with this theory in mind and had great fun.

Even if most of us agree that the colossal failure of the EC re-ruins the game (for good this time?) the time spent here made it so much easier to accept, and I for one can bury this game and at least remember it for more than the estranged twin of Phantom Menace that is turned into at the end.

Modifié par Nauks, 27 juin 2012 - 12:08 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Holy crap last time I looked there were only 11something pages
anything important in the last ~10 hours? Or just the usual sh*tstorm?

[v0rt3x22]

EC re-ruins the game

[v0rt3x22]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Holy crap last time I looked there were only 11something pages
anything important in the last ~10 hours? Or just the usual sh*tstorm?

Just the usual....but less trolls...a balance group of people who believe and don't believe in IT - and having a (somewhat) mature discussion about it 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lat2oo5 wrote...

I have been thinking in the (literal) endings and I cannot be satfisfied with any of them. I mean, I chose destroy and a part of me is regreting that. I dont feel I win the war.
Control? Reaper Oligarchy.
Synthesis? What about the collectors? What about not being organic anymore? Moral issues.
Destroy? The caos would be appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.
And refusal? The cycle goes on.
So there is no good ending from my point of view, only for the Reapers. And we were warned about this from ME1: it is impossible to stop them.

The funny thing is despite what the catalyst says the epilogue of Destroy dosent show any indication of a new machine uprising.

Oh and concerning Synthesis I really dont understand how anyone can support it. It is almost word for word a a rethread of what the Reapers themselves have been telling us about themsleves and I can think of no beeing in the galaxy which would accept this.

The Geth would abhor it as we learned they seek their own future and do not want it forced upon them...well to bad here comes Synthesis.

The Protheans? They did kinda beleive in the power of evolution, but in the form that evolution sorted the weak from the strong and allowed everything to evolve. Synthesis with its "final evolution of life" would halt anything of that kind and i dont think the Protheans woudl accept it (not even mentioning how stupid it sounds to halt evolution)

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 27 juin 2012 - 12:13 .

[paxxton]

The ending is now more like Deus Ex: Human Revolution (with the closing speeches by Shepard, EDI or Hackett serving the purpose of Jensen's speech).

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

The ending is now more like Deus Ex: Human Revolution (with the closing speeches by Shepard, EDI or Hackett serving the purpose of Jensen's speech).

Complete with a denial option where you simply allow things to go its way<_<

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lat2oo5 wrote...

I have been thinking in the (literal) endings and I cannot be satfisfied with any of them. I mean, I chose destroy and a part of me is regreting that. I dont feel I win the war.
Control? Reaper Oligarchy.
Synthesis? What about the collectors? What about not being organic anymore? Moral issues.
Destroy? The caos would be appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.
And refusal? The cycle goes on.
So there is no good ending from my point of view, only for the Reapers. And we were warned about this from ME1: it is impossible to stop them.

The funny thing is despite what the catalyst says the epilogue of Destroy dosent show any indication of a new machine uprising.

Oh and concerning Synthesis I really dont understand how anyone can support it. It is almost word for word a a rethread of what the Reapers themselves have been telling us about themsleves and I can think of no beeing in the galaxy which would accept this.

The Geth would abhor it as we learned they seek their own future and do not want it forced upon them...well to bad here comes Synthesis.

The Protheans? They did kinda beleive in the power of evolution, but in the form that evolution sorted the weak from the strong and allowed everything to evolve. Synthesis with its "final evolution of life" would halt anything of that kind and i dont think the Protheans woudl accept it (not even mentioning how stupid it sounds to halt evolution)

I watched the new Synthesis ending and I just can't understand how anybody can seriously support that ending. The glowing green eyes and the ridiculous skin circuits are really appaling. Destroy and Control are ok now though.

[Nauks]

Oh yeah, I had a disheartening glimmer of hope while playing the EC first time (only did the endpart twice, unskippable cutscenes can go die).

I shot the Star**** after he was done giving me the Crucible options, just to see if anything would happened, and whaddayaknow he breaks into a Reaper voice, the cycle continues, Liara's black box cutscene etc.
So I'm thinking  "oh so next time when I chose Destroy surely something Harbingerlishous will occur" ...

I imagine this happened to more than a few others.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lat2oo5 wrote...

I have been thinking in the (literal) endings and I cannot be satfisfied with any of them. I mean, I chose destroy and a part of me is regreting that. I dont feel I win the war.
Control? Reaper Oligarchy.
Synthesis? What about the collectors? What about not being organic anymore? Moral issues.
Destroy? The caos would be appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.
And refusal? The cycle goes on.
So there is no good ending from my point of view, only for the Reapers. And we were warned about this from ME1: it is impossible to stop them.

The funny thing is despite what the catalyst says the epilogue of Destroy dosent show any indication of a new machine uprising.

Oh and concerning Synthesis I really dont understand how anyone can support it. It is almost word for word a a rethread of what the Reapers themselves have been telling us about themsleves and I can think of no beeing in the galaxy which would accept this.

The Geth would abhor it as we learned they seek their own future and do not want it forced upon them...well to bad here comes Synthesis.

The Protheans? They did kinda beleive in the power of evolution, but in the form that evolution sorted the weak from the strong and allowed everything to evolve. Synthesis with its "final evolution of life" would halt anything of that kind and i dont think the Protheans woudl accept it (not even mentioning how stupid it sounds to halt evolution)

I watched the new Synthesis ending and I just can't understand how anybody can seriously support that ending. The glowing green eyes and the ridiculous skin circuits are really appaling. Destroy and Control are ok now though.

Yeah Cinematic vice the new Control ending is okay. Still dosent change the fact taht we have nothing besides the catalyst telling us that Shepard can do it and with the usualy past examples of why control should not be possible. Also the option to have them suicide run a sun is severily missing.

[Lord Luc1fer]

Having been an ITer, but now loving the extended cut, I thinks its great that the speculation can continue in a fashion where we ultimately will never have confirmation or denial, but explore the content of the game constructively. I personally have to change my stance on IT to 'pro-ending', and here's why. The argument for indoctrination hadalways been the strongest interpretation of the ending in my mind, up until the extended cut. It filled the gaps where there were gaps, and it followed the lore and main themes of the Mass Effect series much more closely than any vanilla interpretation of the endings. It also helped me to keep faith in bioware's artistic might.

Since then, I played the EC, and found it beautifully done. It left details of the Reapers' and Starkid's origins ambiguous to a degree but more clearly outline the motivations of the reapers, however warped they were. If course, to a certain extent the Catalyst became a bit of a Deus Ex Machina, but this impression can be lessened when you consider we've known about the crucible for almost the entire game, and the fact it was going to be a reaper ending superweapon was hardly sprung on us. The logic and break with classic mass effect themes in the last parts of thegame, even with the extended cut, could all suggest strong evidence for IT. But then we also gut wrenching departure of the LI (Liara in my case) from the beam run, the inspirational epilogues (voiced by Lance Henriksson, whose dialogue is in my opinon as godlike as anything by Morgan Freeman) and the bittersweet memorial wall scene on the Normandy. Having chosen destroy with high EMS, I got the breath scene which helps the game end on a high note, and I can imagine for future first time players of the Mass Effect series, the breath scene would be the kind of epic, optimistic easter egg which would make somebody like me want to cheer.

I think what I'm trying to say is that, although the IT in in many sense still very valid, (although the refusal option seems to throw a new spanner into the speculaion works, for good or bad I can't anticipate yet) the EC for me was just too good. I know this in itself if a ****e argument against IT, and I don't want to argue against IT, but I feel that the work that went into the EC and the wonderful end to a truly mesmerising story, that it gave me, would for me be cheapened by it being passed off as an indoctrination. Mass Effect is a series which  has strong sci fi theme and a solid lore, not elast regards indoctrination, but Mass Effect is also a series in which not only the story, but the people in that story, really do matter. For me, the rollercoaster of emotions the last sequences gave me can not, and will not, mean the same if I imagine they are merely hallucinated.

It comes down to how we want to view Mass Effect, and what parts of the series matter the most to us, not what evidence is available, when we interpret the endings. As a logical, analytical and thematic interpretation, IT is briliant. I had great fun in the last few months reading and occasionally contributing to the speculations, and the remaining ambiguity even after extended cut means I will be thrilled continue speculating on what 'could have been' in regards to Shep's indoctrination. But when I think of mass effect, what matters to me is the characters. I fell in love with Mass Effect 2, the first game I played in the series not because of the technical brilliance but because it had me more emotionally hooked than any movie or tv show ever has (okay, well maybe not firefly...) and after playing the extended cut, I had the emotional satisfaction and send off to the characters which I had always craved, even more than a mindblowing plot twist.

The ride was great, meeting such brilliant and welcoming minds as these was truly invigorating  

[paxxton]

We see Shepard die for sure only in Synthesis and low-EMS Destroy. In every other he lives on in some way:

Control - trascends into a being of light (the only ending in which he speaks for himself!)
high-EMS Destroy - the breath scene
Rejection - stands still while the screen fades out to black

Modifié par paxxton, 27 juin 2012 - 12:20 .

[Lat2oo5]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lat2oo5 wrote...

I have been thinking in the (literal) endings and I cannot be satfisfied with any of them. I mean, I chose destroy and a part of me is regreting that. I dont feel I win the war.
Control? Reaper Oligarchy.
Synthesis? What about the collectors? What about not being organic anymore? Moral issues.
Destroy? The caos would be appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.
And refusal? The cycle goes on.
So there is no good ending from my point of view, only for the Reapers. And we were warned about this from ME1: it is impossible to stop them.

The funny thing is despite what the catalyst says the epilogue of Destroy dosent show any indication of a new machine uprising.

Oh and concerning Synthesis I really dont understand how anyone can support it. It is almost word for word a a rethread of what the Reapers themselves have been telling us about themsleves and I can think of no beeing in the galaxy which would accept this.

The Geth would abhor it as we learned they seek their own future and do not want it forced upon them...well to bad here comes Synthesis.

The Protheans? They did kinda beleive in the power of evolution, but in the form that constant strife sorted the strong from the weak so everything could evolve. Synthesis with its "final evolution of life" would halt anything of that kind and i dont think the Protheans woudl accept it (not even mentioning how stupid it sounds to halt evolution)

Synthesis is the worst if you appreciate human being, just a little. And I read, I cant remember where, what would be Javik's opinion with this ending and control. It is funny to imagine that. We would not have hope anymore, we are all half organic half machines, there is no point in many of things like feelings.
Even I believe the Crucible is like a purpose, a way to stop them against the odds for Shepard but, at the end... It is just an illusion, like all the endings except refusal.
And hell, the background music in Control is... Terrible.

I prefer IT by far than this way to see but... At least I am trying to not hate all the franchise.

Control - trascends into a being of light (the only ending in which he speaks for himself!)

In fact, I dont think so. Shepard speaks in a third person when he is talking about earthly Shepard. He is not longer human, he is not longer himself.

Modifié par Lat2oo5, 27 juin 2012 - 12:23 .

[v0rt3x22]

Here's my problem: Sure we control Shepard and he is supposed to act as a vessel for us - in which we speak through him - but do you agree whether this is actually the case?

Sure I can make choices which I find relevant - but I do get a sense that Shepard does have a personality and views of his own - without my input.

That's the interesting part about this entire interaction.

I can have my own views on why I'd pick Synthesis - but (in my opinion) it would go against Mass Effect and the story that BioWare is telling - because nothing what so ever was leading up to that.

Thus - Deus-Ex-Machina - but it makes very little sense to me in a way.

Some things outside of the regular choices you make throughout the series - just had to be established as "truths" (if you will) - which cannot be altered.

I get what you're saying - that Shepards goal was to "Stop" the reapers in any way possible (even if this means self sacrifice) - but the way it was presented to the player - by an entity that Shepard has never met and has no reason to trust - is a bit absurd.

Why hasn't Shepard mentioned any of these alternatives before? It could've crossed his mind.
But I believe that Shepard believes the Reapers are simply too much of an unknown to mess with.

Too much of an unknown to try and control or perform synthesis.

5 minutes ago he SHOT the Illusive man for his "crazy" views - and now - 5 minutes later he says "Oh...oops....the man was right".....ok then....

I don't see why I should trust that child one bit.

[Lord Luc1fer]

Lat2oo5 wrote...

Destroy? The caos would be appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.

The way I am choosing to intepret destroy is that we have proof that the cycle can be stopped. The geth and EDI both prove that synthetics can exist peacefully, despite all the catalyst claims to know. Perhaps the race who created the reapers had a tunnel view of synthetics due to their own bad experiences with them? The very fact that Shepard survives to tell the tale of the synthetic/ organic problem means knowledge of the chaos can be passed down so the same mistake of the past can't be made again. Just my view on it

[Lat2oo5]

Lord Luc1fer wrote...

Lat2oo5 wrote...

Destroy? The caos would be appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.

The way I am choosing to intepret destroy is that we have proof that the cycle can be stopped. The geth and EDI both prove that synthetics can exist peacefully, despite all the catalyst claims to know. Perhaps the race who created the reapers had a tunnel view of synthetics due to their own bad experiences with them? The very fact that Shepard survives to tell the tale of the synthetic/ organic problem means knowledge of the chaos can be passed down so the same mistake of the past can't be made again. Just my view on it

Dont mess my theory!

It is a good point of view but, really, when I saw the ending I was everything less satisfied. Shepard breaths scene is the only flaw and the one which gives me a little of hope... But then, the stargazer scene appears and, seeing their conversation, it is like Shepard is dead, nothing is really different, but you know he is not...

[Jere85]

Did anyone make an EC vid on youtube yet? I really want to listen to someone ranting about it so i can agree with them...

[Lord Luc1fer]

Lat2oo5 wrote...

Lord Luc1fer wrote...

Lat2oo5 wrote...

Destroy? The caos would be appear again, and the solution could be the same as well.

The way I am choosing to intepret destroy is that we have proof that the cycle can be stopped. The geth and EDI both prove that synthetics can exist peacefully, despite all the catalyst claims to know. Perhaps the race who created the reapers had a tunnel view of synthetics due to their own bad experiences with them? The very fact that Shepard survives to tell the tale of the synthetic/ organic problem means knowledge of the chaos can be passed down so the same mistake of the past can't be made again. Just my view on it

Dont mess my theory!

It is a good point of view but, really, when I saw the ending I was everything less satisfied. Shepard breaths scene is the only flaw and the one which gives me a little of hope... But then, the stargazer scene appears and, seeing their conversation, it is like Shepard is dead, nothing is really different, but you know he is not...

Sorry for messin'  

Yeah, the only problem I had with the breath scene, although ofr someone who hadn't played before, it would be a massive, awesome easter egg, it made me worry that nobody knows she isn't dead! However, if you have an LI, the scene with the memorial wall actually shows them seeming to decide not to place the plaque. I like to this this is them realising, that shepard is alive, some way or another, and the deaprture of the normandy from the jungle planet is the crew going back to find him.