55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Cecilia L]

Good morning, good men and women, defenders of the IT!

So, though it's probably been posted a number of times already - it is confirmed that starbrat doesn't know what he's talking about.

What caught my attention was his line "Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized", which confirms that he just can't be some kind of benevolent force that knows all motivations of organics and synthetics. It is confimed that he is an AI in league with the reapers and that-

THE REAPERS HARVESTED THEIR CREATORS and therefore have the utter DELUSION that all synthetics and organics will fight.

Also, he talks about how synthetics wish to understand organics, (and reapers are all so advanced)but clearly he's clueless if he thinks what they're doing is the only solution.

So, my conclusion being he's either just a STUPID AI or, as probably is the case, a reaper/manifestation of Harby in Shep's mind who is up to no good.

The reaper voice might also be a clue, I don't know why I go on about obvious things...

[Soultaker08]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Trolls don't get tired, don't they ?

Well for now the hardcore IT-Trolls are very quiet

[Andromidius]

Wowky wrote...

I was a huge fan of the IT, and it's a shame to let it go, but yeah, I just don't see how the EC allows for it at all. Oh well.

Ignore the trolls.  If anything, IT is more crystal clear then it was before.

Bioware didn't lie on one thing at least - they never proved nor disproved IT and didn't change anyone's mind on the subject.

Hell, the fact the breath scene is still there could be prove of IT all by itself.  But its not alone.

[Andromidius]

Cecilia L wrote...

So, my conclusion being he's either just a STUPID AI or, as probably is the case, a reaper/manifestation of Harby in Shep's mind who is up to no good.

Basically this, yes.  Either Starbinger is a liar or is very stupid.

I'm inclined to think its a liar.  Stupid beings, no matter how powerful, wouldn't have survived for billions of years if it was as stupid as we're led to believe.

[HellishFiend]

Cecilia L wrote...

Good morning, good men and women, defenders of the IT!

So, though it's probably been posted a number of times already - it is confirmed that starbrat doesn't know what he's talking about.

What caught my attention was his line "Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized", which confirms that he just can't be some kind of benevolent force that knows all motivations of organics and synthetics. It is confimed that he is an AI in league with the reapers and that-

THE REAPERS HARVESTED THEIR CREATORS and therefore have the utter DELUSION that all synthetics and organics will fight.

Also, he talks about how synthetics wish to understand organics, (and reapers are all so advanced)but clearly he's clueless if he thinks what they're doing is the only solution.

So, my conclusion being he's either just a STUPID AI or, as probably is the case, a reaper/manifestation of Harby in Shep's mind who is up to no good.

The reaper voice might also be a clue, I don't know why I go on about obvious things...

Once again I'd like to point out a wikipedia article on the form of argument that the "Catalyst" uses.

Sophistry. 

So that would definitely make him "up to no good" regardless of whether he's a stupid AI or a manifestation of Harby. 

[Cecilia L]

Overdrive1493 wrote...

Yep. IT is irrelevant and false. The EC has rendered it impossible.

Nope.
 
Even in the refuse ending with the time capsule there is still the possibility that that is just one of Liara's capsules that she hasn't bothered to dig up after the victory. It's totally circumstantial.

The grandmother scene has me a bit worried though, can anyone interpret that to make IT sense of it?

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

Wowky wrote...

I was a huge fan of the IT, and it's a shame to let it go, but yeah, I just don't see how the EC allows for it at all. Oh well.

Ignore the trolls.  If anything, IT is more crystal clear then it was before.

Bioware didn't lie on one thing at least - they never proved nor disproved IT and didn't change anyone's mind on the subject.

Hell, the fact the breath scene is still there could be prove of IT all by itself.  But its not alone.

This.  The only part of IT that's taken a serious blow is the expectation that BW will do something good with it.  I've got a feeling they don't intend to answer the question for years or decades and then only in an interview.  No big deal, not like it means the Reapers were never beaten or anything.  Oh no wait, yes it does.

[Overdrive1493]

Cecilia L wrote...

Good morning, good men and women, defenders of the IT!

So, though it's probably been posted a number of times already - it is confirmed that starbrat doesn't know what he's talking about.

What caught my attention was his line "Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized", which confirms that he just can't be some kind of benevolent force that knows all motivations of organics and synthetics. It is confimed that he is an AI in league with the reapers and that-

THE REAPERS HARVESTED THEIR CREATORS and therefore have the utter DELUSION that all synthetics and organics will fight.

Also, he talks about how synthetics wish to understand organics, (and reapers are all so advanced)but clearly he's clueless if he thinks what they're doing is the only solution.

So, my conclusion being he's either just a STUPID AI or, as probably is the case, a reaper/manifestation of Harby in Shep's mind who is up to no good.

The reaper voice might also be a clue, I don't know why I go on about obvious things...

The line about organics being resourceful doesn't prove that the Catalyst doesn't know, like he said, he thought the concept has been eradicated. All the crucible does either way is open up the options, it's useless on its own. 

The original creators became the first reaper. The Catalyst AI determined that conflict will always arise between synthetics and organics, and thus, the cycle began with the original creators. 

The Indoctrination Theory is impossible. There is no new evidence in the extended cut, and the new scenes refute over half of the Indoctrination theory arguments. Like your squad member appearing at the end on the Normandy was just hope, nope, now we have a scene disproving that.

[Danhunter101]

Wowky wrote...

I was a huge fan of the IT, and it's a shame to let it go, but yeah, I just don't see how the EC allows for it at all. Oh well.

Of course it does, all they have done is flesh out the options a little.  He can still be indoctrinated but experiencing longer and deeper mind fooks. 

In my opinion they should say he's indoctrinated in a few months when everyone has stopped talking about and do a massive troll face :-)  But seriously i agree, BW and EA missed a golden opportunity to do one of the best endings possible and leave us practically gagging for more.  Who knows, they may still do that but i think it's unlikely ;-)

In my mind he's indoctinated and thats the end of it, i just wont be getting the story after his indoctrination.

[Fingertrip]

Dwailing wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Is it just me, or is it that the longer the conversation with the Catalyst drags on, the more distant Shepard sounds? He starts out sounding almost normal, but by the end it's like he's brain fried.

Yeah, I agree with this wholeheartedly.  Also, have you tried telling the Star-Brat that you won't use the Crucible when he tells you what Destroy does?  For a moment, Shepard sounded like he was going to snap out of it, and Star-Brat's voice took on an even greater echo than before.  Listen to this dialogue and tell me that it doesn't sound like Shepard is about to snap out of a dream/hallucination for a minute.  
 

"YOUR BELIEF IS NOT REQUIRED!"

Another point where the kid gets really pissed.

[Andromidius]

Cecilia L wrote...

The grandmother scene has me a bit worried though, can anyone interpret that to make IT sense of it?

Its a dream to put Shepard's dying mind at ease, thinking that his/her sacrifice wasn't in vein.

But the fact no details are even hinted at as to HOW they defeated the Reapers (or prevented their return at all) suggests its not real.  Starbinger wouldn't want to be giving Shepard any ideas, after all.

Not to mention the kid still looks exactly like the original one.  And has the same voice.

[Stigweird85]

Cecilia L wrote...

Overdrive1493 wrote...

Yep. IT is irrelevant and false. The EC has rendered it impossible.

Nope.
 
Even in the refuse ending with the time capsule there is still the possibility that that is just one of Liara's capsules that she hasn't bothered to dig up after the victory. It's totally circumstantial.

The grandmother scene has me a bit worried though, can anyone interpret that to make IT sense of it?

Grandmother scene = unable to get Buzz Aldrin back for VO nothing else

[Overdrive1493]

Andromidius wrote...

Cecilia L wrote...

The grandmother scene has me a bit worried though, can anyone interpret that to make IT sense of it?

Its a dream to put Shepard's dying mind at ease, thinking that his/her sacrifice wasn't in vein.

But the fact no details are even hinted at as to HOW they defeated the Reapers (or prevented their return at all) suggests its not real.  Starbinger wouldn't want to be giving Shepard any ideas, after all.

Not to mention the kid still looks exactly like the original one.  And has the same voice.

That's not Shepard's mind, what the hell do you believe it is for? There's no fact to support this. Even if your IT is true, why would that scene be in his mind? That makes 0 sense at all. IT or not, that scene's in the future.

[SS2Dante]

bigstig wrote...

Cecilia L wrote...

Overdrive1493 wrote...

Yep. IT is irrelevant and false. The EC has rendered it impossible.

Nope.
 
Even in the refuse ending with the time capsule there is still the possibility that that is just one of Liara's capsules that she hasn't bothered to dig up after the victory. It's totally circumstantial.

The grandmother scene has me a bit worried though, can anyone interpret that to make IT sense of it?

Grandmother scene = unable to get Buzz Aldrin back for VO nothing else

Actually, I think the point of that was to emphasise that it's a different cycle. Though yeah, they could have changed the kids voice too, unless they figure kids all sound alike

[Uncle Jo]

Soultaker08 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Trolls don't get tired, don't they ?

Well for now the hardcore IT-Trolls are very quiet

Never saw you here before. Or did you get some courage just after the EC and came here to feast on misery like many of your kind ?

And no, the IT was neither confirmed nor dismissed. Deal with it.

Oh.. and don't even bother to answer this post, it was the first and the last time I spoke to you.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 27 juin 2012 - 05:25 .

[Andromidius]

Overdrive1493 wrote...

The line about organics being resourceful doesn't prove that the Catalyst doesn't know, like he said, he thought the concept has been eradicated.

Considering they have indoctrinated agents, how could they not know?

Further proof Starbinger is lying.  He's buttering up Shepard, saying how brave and smart he/she is for getting this far, and rewards him/her with special amazing choices that will save the galaxy - but only Shepard can do it because Shepard is special!

Yeah.  Typical mindwashing tactics.

[Andromidius]

Overdrive1493 wrote...
That's not Shepard's mind, what the hell do you believe it is for? There's no fact to support this. Even if your IT is true, why would that scene be in his mind? That makes 0 sense at all. IT or not, that scene's in the future.

Erm.  I don't even know how to respond to this, since you don't understand what 'dreams' are.  So sorry you don't understand this basic premise, but I hope you enjoyed your endings.

[Overdrive1493]

Andromidius wrote...

Overdrive1493 wrote...

The line about organics being resourceful doesn't prove that the Catalyst doesn't know, like he said, he thought the concept has been eradicated.

Considering they have indoctrinated agents, how could they not know?

Further proof Starbinger is lying.  He's buttering up Shepard, saying how brave and smart he/she is for getting this far, and rewards him/her with special amazing choices that will save the galaxy - but only Shepard can do it because Shepard is special!

Yeah.  Typical mindwashing tactics.

They only find out through the Illusive Man, late in the game. The Prothean VI tells you this. Prior to the Illusive Man, the child says that he believed it had been eradicated. 

Shepard is special - he's the first one to get to this point, the cycle must end and a new solution is required. You're making it far more complicated then you need to. Since ME1 we've known Shepard is "special", This isn't a surprise to anyone, least of all the Reapers, of course they believe he's special, he's the only one (and furthermore, his cycle) to present a true challenge to them. 

[Overdrive1493]

Andromidius wrote...

Overdrive1493 wrote...
That's not Shepard's mind, what the hell do you believe it is for? There's no fact to support this. Even if your IT is true, why would that scene be in his mind? That makes 0 sense at all. IT or not, that scene's in the future.

Erm.  I don't even know how to respond to this, since you don't understand what 'dreams' are.  So sorry you don't understand this basic premise, but I hope you enjoyed your endings.

When was the last time you had a dream where you were simply witnessing events, and not yourself? 

[Sero303]

Look gentlemen, ladies,
The fact is we can sit here and speculate until pigs fly, but it doesn't matter. As much as bioware has led us to believe that we decide what happens in the Mass Effect Universe, the fact is we don't. We have no more say in what happens, or happened, if they choose to release another DLC, or another sequel that proves IT true or not that is their choice. The only decision that we hold is whether or not to support any future projects and as of right now I leaning more towards NO, then ever before.

[BatmanTurian]

I finished the EC last night and left myself some time to think about the endings. I had 7800 something EMS and galaxy at 100%. I'm not going to read the last 100 pages, which are trolling and people lamenting mostly, as far as I could see. So I will only leave you guys with my thoughts.

I don't believe the whole IT was used, but I believe parts of it were viable and true. Let me explain. Like FellishBeast said, " we might be right about IT but wrong about exactly how it was executed."

According to the writers, as I understand it, the Reapers are doing what they do at the beginning of the game. They believe this cycle still has no chance of defeating them and Starchild's logic is unassailable.

So over the course of ME3, they begin the process of indoctrinating Shepard. The kid was real, or maybe not, either way that part doesn't matter. Nightmares and feelings of guilt, manipulation of the mind is the Reapers' specialty. So that part of IT doesn't change, after all Harby said in his last words in Mass Effect 2 that Shepard's mind would be his.

So the dreams are the Reapers breaking down Shepard, if not attempting to start making Shep their agent later. However, they find that Shep is a tough nut to crack. Also, Shep is running around the galaxy disrupting their plans, killing Reapers and Reaper troops and uniting the galaxy against them.

Cut to Crucible finished, N7 agents disrupting Reaper, Heretic Geth, and Cerberus activities all over the Galaxy, and the push to Earth with the whole Galaxy united in one goal, kill them or they kill us.

So, after London (wasn't as weird this time around, but it was still a little off), Shep is still knocked out near the beam and Harby leaves, apparently to go protect the Citadel and fight Sword and Shield. what he doesn't expect is that Shepard is still alive and so is Anderson. Shep crawls forward and gets into the beam after dispatching the last troops. The slow-motion rush of the husks is similar to Eva Core's rush at Shep after injuring the VS on Mars, so Shep's reality is already beginning to warp.

But this is understandable, as the dialogue in the game shows people were clearly drawn to the beam, but also that there was interference around it that was interfering with radar. Something from the beam was doing... something. So I still believe it had an indoctrinating signal because even if they can kill people and throw the bodies into the beam, it's so much easier to also have the people they're harvesting come right to them.

Anyway, getting back to the point, Shepard gets past our folk hero, Marauder Shields, and into the Beam. Now here is where things get weird and one version of the IT is correct.

The Citadel is composed of the collector ship, the derelict Reaper, and the Shadow Broker's ship. Shepard's perceptions are starting to warp. Shepard goes up to the controls with Anderson (who apparently is real) Then the face off with TIM happens.

Now with TIM, we begin to see indoctrination really taking hold, because the Reapers are using TIM to stop or slow down Shepard. One of them realized Shepard got onto the Citadel through TIM so they use TIM to try to convince Shepard to give in, otherwise the Reapers are screwed. The only reason TIM can control Anderson and Shepard is through the Reapers. He believes he is in control, but he isn't, while Shepard and Anderson are partially indoctrinated and subject to paralyzation and control of their bodies.

Shepard Anderson, and TIM, have their conversation. The conversation is still Meta because Anderson is still talking to the player and Shepard. Memories and minds are warping and being confused. In the end, Shep kills TIM after being forced to kill Anderson (at least in my game; I didn't have enough Paragon to talk him into killing himself on the last line; Paragrade Shep fails at that). We know Hackett knows Shepard is on the Citadel because the EC makes it more obvious why, so that loose end is tied up. Shepard passes out, trying to figure out what to do and is brought up to the decision chamber.

Shep's perception is still warped, because StarKid is the Reapers speaking directly to Shepard. The Crucible has docked and yes, they were just that incompetent and prideful that they thought they had wiped out the plans every cycle but they had not. The crucible will join with the Citadel to achieve one of the three decisions. Destroy was put there by Organics, but Control and Synthesis are Reaper goals already. However, these goals are now twisted to Organic advantage. Basically, at this point we have the Reapers by the short hairs and they're throwing up the white flag and trying to keep Shepard from destroying them.

So we have these new investigative options with Starkid. I won't go too much into it because others will analyze those words, and I can't remember them all except for his fire metaphor, which pissed me off. The Reapers are ready to accept defeat because their goal has been to somehow harmonize with organics but the Starkid had decided, like an unempathetic machine with no contact with organics (unlike EDI and the Geth), to turn all these races into gestalt cyborgs to achieve this. Clearly, he is a freaking genius /sarcasm off.

The Reapers are in Shepard's head convincing Shep to spare them. Star Kid is a Reaper mind himself so he's lying when he says he is the Catalyst. The Citadel is the Catalyst because it's the only thing that isn't affected by the changes. So that part of manipulating Shepard in IT was correct. However, we were wrong about Control and Synthesis. The developers intended for those to be the best endings.

Now this is where I disagree with where they went with the series at the end. We'd been fighting the Reapers for three games and Shepard and the Galaxy's goals have always been to destroy the Reapers. In the Hero's Journey trope, the goal of the hero is always to kill or destroy the evil plaguing the lands. It is never to accept surrender, or enslave them. This broke the narrative for me. No matter what the developers believed, this ruined the story and its themes.

Control goes against the theme of freedom. Even though Shepard becomes a silent protector of organics, Shepard has enslaved the Reapers. This makes Shepard a hypocrite, even if the Reapers were evil. Nobody deserves enslavement. Control is status quo of Star Kid, albeit with a form of protection of Organics that doesn't involve systematically murdering them and creating new Reapers to assist in "protecting" organics.

Synthesis goes against the theme of diversity in the games. It is also, apparently, the complete singularity that the Geth had always wanted to achieve but couldn't. Everyone now has the same nanide-based DNA. Does this mean humans can now have kids with Quarians and Turians since they have the same DNA now? Who frakking knows, because Synthesis is space magic and it's not exactly explained. The point being that everyone is now the same and sharing one mind/concensus and therefore no conflict can arise because everyone will understand everyone else.

Destroy is what I picked, even if the Developers intended it to be the next-to-worst ending. Destroy has been Shepard's goal all along and the galaxy is apparently better off without the Reapers, according to Hackett. Organics can now earn their way towards some kind of Reapertech without involving Reapers or their machinations and murder. This ending is the ending that makes sense in the Hero's Journey trope, as I said before, because Shepard's story has always been the Journey of the Hero, and the knight always slays the dragon. It's what thematically makes sense, even if cliche, because that is how stories have always been told.

Rejecting the choices is obvious. We lose, but it's clear that Starkid was Harbinger with the other Reapers behind him trying to make peace with organics. Why they wanted to do this in the end I'm not sure, but as I said before, I believe it was because Organics and the Geth had the Reaper's backs against the wall as soon as the Crucible was in place and they had no choice but to try to come to some agreement or face annihilation of one side or the other. Apparently, Shepard's actions had actually changed the perceptions of the Reapers, causing them to finally respect Organics, and more specifically Shepard, and that they deserved a chance to decide how to go forward. Rejecting the choices is a big FU to the Reapers after they try to extend a tentacle in peace.

So, in closing. We were right and we were wrong. The literalists were also right and wrong. Bioware was telling the story in some different way. Parts of IT were true but because of the extreme vagueness of the endings, it was easy to start doubting the ending itself. Now we know we were partially right and that is enough for me.

As for the endings, the Developers said they did not want to prescribe which ending is correct but it is obvious which endings they favored. Their favored endings go against conventional storytelling, violate their own themes, and basically make me believe Bioware still screwed up and Hudson and Walters still didn't understand where they went wrong. Whatever.

Thank you for reading this wall of text. I will not put up a TLDR.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 27 juin 2012 - 05:53 .

[Lord Goose]

Considering they have indoctrinated agents, how could they not know?

They didn't know about Ilos either. They are not all-knowing.

Hell, the fact the breath scene is still there could be prove of IT all by itself. But its not alone.

After Destroy it is unclear, that happened to Shepard. Catalyst line is ambigous (as it was before), and we see that LI hesistates to put his/her name on memorial wall. And breath scene is an answer to that.

Where is no such questions, both important, and easy-to-answer in other two endings. So, it is good answer, given in form of extra.

Putting aside feelings, how this is not an explanation?

[senshi420]

Overdrive1493 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Overdrive1493 wrote...
That's not Shepard's mind, what the hell do you believe it is for? There's no fact to support this. Even if your IT is true, why would that scene be in his mind? That makes 0 sense at all. IT or not, that scene's in the future.

Erm.  I don't even know how to respond to this, since you don't understand what 'dreams' are.  So sorry you don't understand this basic premise, but I hope you enjoyed your endings.

When was the last time you had a dream where you were simply witnessing events, and not yourself? 

ive dreamt in the 3rd person many times. its not unheard of.

[Tirian Thorn]

Overdrive1493 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Overdrive1493 wrote...

The line about organics being resourceful doesn't prove that the Catalyst doesn't know, like he said, he thought the concept has been eradicated.

Considering they have indoctrinated agents, how could they not know?

Further proof Starbinger is lying.  He's buttering up Shepard, saying how brave and smart he/she is for getting this far, and rewards him/her with special amazing choices that will save the galaxy - but only Shepard can do it because Shepard is special!

Yeah.  Typical mindwashing tactics.

They only find out through the Illusive Man, late in the game. The Prothean VI tells you this. Prior to the Illusive Man, the child says that he believed it had been eradicated. 

Shepard is special - he's the first one to get to this point, the cycle must end and a new solution is required. You're making it far more complicated then you need to. Since ME1 we've known Shepard is "special", This isn't a surprise to anyone, least of all the Reapers, of course they believe he's special, he's the only one (and furthermore, his cycle) to present a true challenge to them. 

You only "know" Shepard is the first organic to reach that point because Starbinger tells you so...  

I'd rather ask a multiple divorced person on how to build a successful marriage than trust Star-Brat!

I'd rather ask Casey Anthony for parenting advice than trust Starbinger. 

Tirian Thorn wrote...

I’m still don’t trust Starbrat.

It’s like, no really Shepard, we want the same things. I really wish that organics and synthetics could all just get a long, but it doesn’t work like that. I have the data to prove it. But, I lost it, in a volcano, so, you’ll just have to trust me.

TIM couldn’t control us, but I “KNOW” you can.

Or

Synthetics. We’ve tried that before too and it didn’t work, but I know you’ll succeed. You’re ready. You’re special, not like all those other fools. They weren’t as smart and awesome as you Shepard.

But don’t pick destroy. I mean, that’s not cool. You’ll cause a lot of problems and it could be so much easier and less painful if you do what I say.

[EpyonX3]

SS2Dante wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Cecilia L wrote...

Overdrive1493 wrote...

Yep. IT is irrelevant and false. The EC has rendered it impossible.

Nope.
 
Even in the refuse ending with the time capsule there is still the possibility that that is just one of Liara's capsules that she hasn't bothered to dig up after the victory. It's totally circumstantial.

The grandmother scene has me a bit worried though, can anyone interpret that to make IT sense of it?

Grandmother scene = unable to get Buzz Aldrin back for VO nothing else

Actually, I think the point of that was to emphasise that it's a different cycle. Though yeah, they could have changed the kids voice too, unless they figure kids all sound alike

I've said this before.

I think the Asari live on since they have long lifespans and can reproduce by mating with themselves or other creatures. Since they live so long, it's possible to re create civilization with just a handful of people. It also makes it easier to understand the message left by Liara, an Asari.

That's why the next time around, the reapers are beaten.