55528 réponses à ce sujet

[djspectre]

I think that the IT still stands despite Hackett saying someone made it to the beam. He ASSUMES Shepard made it aboard the citadel. Afterall, he has no idea what indoctrination feels like: He's never encountered a living reaper before and shepard has.

Further, they changed the animation that happens to shepard when he pops aboard the citadel: He now flies out of some sorta star trek-looking transporter pad device....yet anderson still says he came up right behind him. There is no other teleporter pad anywhere else on the path that leads to the control panel for Anderson to come come out of, nor does the control panel room have any other ramps leading to it besides the one Shepard approaches on.

Further, the epilogue showed the citadel clearly having it's arms blown off from the presidium ring, yet later in the EC Epilogue cinematic it shows the citadel arms attached, partially closed, but damaged....how could both be possible.

There are still inconsistencies (despite a few bits to clarify) that leave the indoctrination theory intact.

Also, the additional dialog from the catalyst says basically the same thing, albiet with more dialogue to explain how things happened: it still emphasizes synthesis which is the Reapers goal to create order and control even says that shepard will lose his conscious mind and only 'be aware of organics in the galaxy'.

And the refusal ending, is even more vague as to how anyone lived since Hackett said that they clearly couldn't win conventionally, under any circumstances (stated just before the Cronos' mission in a vid-com session).

The IT still has more than enough evidence to support it's existence, so I'm not sure why everyone is saying that the EC definitively negates all possibility of the Indoc Theory.

[plfranke]

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@byne: Did you miss the last reply?

Yes, but I went back and read it. High EMS destroy doesnt do any of those things.

Destroy doesnt go against my principles, because I do understand that there will be sacrifices in war. The geth knew that. EDI knew that. I'm not forcing anything on them that they didnt understand was a possibility.

Well, that's just one whole civilization wiped out + EDI + the Reapers themselves. Moreover, the relays are destroyed with no chance to rebuild (only in Destroy). Hackett is as always proud and happy while people of the Galaxy are cut off of each other, stuck in nowhere, starving, dying, cursing Shepard. And Hackett just sails slowly through space near a broken mass relay. Optimistic. We'll manage somehow. Just wasting decades on rebuilding what was unnecessarily destroyed.

It makes you wonder why the driving force of all 3 games is suddenly painted in the worst light.

The relays can be rebuilt. There is a lot of hope in the high EMS Destroy. It felt right just getting the Reapers out of the way and letting civilization build itself again after the war.

Also, i know they're in every ending but, *sniff* baby Krogan. So cute! My wife was watching me play the ending and she Daww'ed at that slide.

I didn't say there wasn't hope I said it was painted in the worst light. In high destroy you're going to take a lot more time rebuilding the relays and be a lot less advanced than in a civilization being helped and protected by the reapers. And in synthesis everyone is at the peak of evolution

[BatmanTurian]

djspectre wrote...

I think that the IT still stands despite Hackett saying someone made it to the beam. He ASSUMES Shepard made it aboard the citadel. Afterall, he has no idea what indoctrination feels like: He's never encountered a living reaper before and shepard has.

Further, they changed the animation that happens to shepard when he pops aboard the citadel: He now flies out of some sorta star trek-looking transporter pad device....yet anderson still says he came up right behind him. There is no other teleporter pad anywhere else on the path that leads to the control panel for Anderson to come come out of, nor does the control panel room have any other ramps leading to it besides the one Shepard approaches on.

Further, the epilogue showed the citadel clearly having it's arms blown off from the presidium ring, yet later in the EC Epilogue cinematic it shows the citadel arms attached, partially closed, but damaged....how could both be possible.

There are still inconsistencies (despite a few bits to clarify) that leave the indoctrination theory intact.

Also, the additional dialog from the catalyst says basically the same thing, albiet with more dialogue to explain how things happened: it still emphasizes synthesis which is the Reapers goal to create order and control even says that shepard will lose his conscious mind and only 'be aware of organics in the galaxy'.

And the refusal ending, is even more vague as to how anyone lived since Hackett said that they clearly couldn't win conventionally, under any circumstances (stated just before the Cronos' mission in a vid-com session).

The IT still has more than enough evidence to support it's existence, so I'm not sure why everyone is saying that the EC definitively negates all possibility of the Indoc Theory.

Because most human beings don't care about truth, only about being right.

[byne]

Arian Dynas wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

alright, ladies and gentleman, I'm off to finally go play Dawnguard.
It's going to be-









wait for it-









legendary!

>.< I hate you. I have Skyrim on PC and can't even touch Dawnguard for a month or more. We don't even have a release date.

I'm REALLY excited for Dawnguard. On the plus side, at least I can kill mother****ers while on my horse now.

My only real complaint regarding Dawnguard is lack of being able to marry a certain NPC. They build up a romance but then do nothing with it.

[thisisme8]

masster blaster wrote...

You know what bothers me the Refuse ending. In some case's it supports It but in others it does not but my question is HOW did Liara say the Crucible dent even work IF everyone died? and if She already sent the time Capsule then how did she add the Crucible did not work,

So, if I was betting everything on the crucible, but I had to write a diary in case we lost, I would make sure to note that:

"If I am dead and we lost, obviously it's because the one thing that we bet it all on - the crucible - didn't work."

Not really that hard, honestly.

[Dwailing]

You know, Shepard looks MUCH more confused at how Anderson reached the control panel first than he used to.

[Xavendithas]

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
An aside. It was cool in Synthesis to see a Quarian without a mask. I think it may have even been Tali.

Problem being...  You only see a bit of the face, and it looks completely human.  Which...  Sucks.

Also reinforces Shep creating dreams based on knowledge - Shep doesn't know what a Quarian looks like under the mask (unless you date Tali).

In my canon playthrough, after taking down the destroyer on Rannoch and resolving the situation between the Quarians and the Geth, Tali takes her mask off right in front of Shepard. Granted her back was facing the camera, but I think it's safe to assume that Shepard got to see her face.

but it's the same thing I've been trying to get across about why the crew putting anderson's name on the plaque and being reluctant about shepard is so important. it's not about shepard being indoctrinated it's about indoctrinating the player. it's about our memories and we never got to see her face.

Oh, I know. Sorry, I'm just playing Devils Advocate. I have only seen the high EMS destroy ending in the EC. Liara was my love interest and now that I'm thinking about it, I believe the camera doesn't even show her putting Shepards name up on the wall. She just stands there holding it with a smile on her face. The EC is ripe with symbolism.

I'm in total agreement with you, it's just like the scene with Harbinger ignoring the Normandy. If they wanted to make us think otherwise, they would have just made Harbinger take a couple shots at the Normandy. It seems to me as if they wanted us to see that Harbinger made a decision to leave the Normandy alone. Which leaves more questions than it answers.

[BatmanTurian]

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@byne: Did you miss the last reply?

Yes, but I went back and read it. High EMS destroy doesnt do any of those things.

Destroy doesnt go against my principles, because I do understand that there will be sacrifices in war. The geth knew that. EDI knew that. I'm not forcing anything on them that they didnt understand was a possibility.

Well, that's just one whole civilization wiped out + EDI + the Reapers themselves. Moreover, the relays are destroyed with no chance to rebuild (only in Destroy). Hackett is as always proud and happy while people of the Galaxy are cut off of each other, stuck in nowhere, starving, dying, cursing Shepard. And Hackett just sails slowly through space near a broken mass relay. Optimistic. We'll manage somehow. Just wasting decades on rebuilding what was unnecessarily destroyed.

It makes you wonder why the driving force of all 3 games is suddenly painted in the worst light.

The relays can be rebuilt. There is a lot of hope in the high EMS Destroy. It felt right just getting the Reapers out of the way and letting civilization build itself again after the war.

Also, i know they're in every ending but, *sniff* baby Krogan. So cute! My wife was watching me play the ending and she Daww'ed at that slide.

I didn't say there wasn't hope I said it was painted in the worst light. In high destroy you're going to take a lot more time rebuilding the relays and be a lot less advanced than in a civilization being helped and protected by the reapers. And in synthesis everyone is at the peak of evolution

Destroy is bootstrappy freedom. Control and Synthesis is accepting the surrender of the enemy and benefitting from their technology.

[Trollgunner]

[quote]byne wrote...

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

[quote]BatmanTurian wrote...



My only real complaint regarding Dawnguard is lack of being able to marry a certain NPC. They build up a romance but then do nothing with it.

[/quote]

For what stands skyrim.nexus then? All those precious modes.....*__* I hope some day we will get masseffect.nexus.

[Dwailing]

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@byne: Did you miss the last reply?

Yes, but I went back and read it. High EMS destroy doesnt do any of those things.

Destroy doesnt go against my principles, because I do understand that there will be sacrifices in war. The geth knew that. EDI knew that. I'm not forcing anything on them that they didnt understand was a possibility.

Well, that's just one whole civilization wiped out + EDI + the Reapers themselves. Moreover, the relays are destroyed with no chance to rebuild (only in Destroy). Hackett is as always proud and happy while people of the Galaxy are cut off of each other, stuck in nowhere, starving, dying, cursing Shepard. And Hackett just sails slowly through space near a broken mass relay. Optimistic. We'll manage somehow. Just wasting decades on rebuilding what was unnecessarily destroyed.

It makes you wonder why the driving force of all 3 games is suddenly painted in the worst light.

The relays can be rebuilt. There is a lot of hope in the high EMS Destroy. It felt right just getting the Reapers out of the way and letting civilization build itself again after the war.

Also, i know they're in every ending but, *sniff* baby Krogan. So cute! My wife was watching me play the ending and she Daww'ed at that slide.

I didn't say there wasn't hope I said it was painted in the worst light. In high destroy you're going to take a lot more time rebuilding the relays and be a lot less advanced than in a civilization being helped and protected by the reapers. And in synthesis everyone is at the peak of evolution

So the peak of evolution is when the genetic diversity of the galaxy is removed?  You know, there might be something to this Creationism thing after all...

[thisisme8]

byne wrote...

My only real complaint regarding Dawnguard is lack of being able to marry a certain NPC. They build up a romance but then do nothing with it.

Don't worry, thanks to the modding community, not only will you be able to marry her, but she'll be wearing nothing but a thong and a katana the next time you load your game.

[BatmanTurian]

Xavendithas wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
An aside. It was cool in Synthesis to see a Quarian without a mask. I think it may have even been Tali.

Problem being...  You only see a bit of the face, and it looks completely human.  Which...  Sucks.

Also reinforces Shep creating dreams based on knowledge - Shep doesn't know what a Quarian looks like under the mask (unless you date Tali).

In my canon playthrough, after taking down the destroyer on Rannoch and resolving the situation between the Quarians and the Geth, Tali takes her mask off right in front of Shepard. Granted her back was facing the camera, but I think it's safe to assume that Shepard got to see her face.

but it's the same thing I've been trying to get across about why the crew putting anderson's name on the plaque and being reluctant about shepard is so important. it's not about shepard being indoctrinated it's about indoctrinating the player. it's about our memories and we never got to see her face.

Oh, I know. Sorry, I'm just playing Devils Advocate. I have only seen the high EMS destroy ending in the EC. Liara was my love interest and now that I'm thinking about it, I believe the camera doesn't even show her putting Shepards name up on the wall. She just stands there holding it with a smile on her face. The EC is ripe with symbolism.

I'm in total agreement with you, it's just like the scene with Harbinger ignoring the Normandy. If they wanted to make us think otherwise, they would have just made Harbinger take a couple shots at the Normandy. It seems to me as if they wanted us to see that Harbinger made a decision to leave the Normandy alone. Which leaves more questions than it answers.

Here's something I just thought of. What if Harbinger wasn't really ignoring the normandy but was just waiting for Shepard to get away from it. Then, when Shepard gets up, Harbinger takes off to chase the Normandy.

[Xavendithas]

Dwailing wrote...

You know, Shepard looks MUCH more confused at how Anderson reached the control panel first than he used to.

I could be incorrectly remembering the scene, but the whispers also start as soon as Anderson tries to turn around and face Shepard. Pre-EC I thought the whispers started up when TIM walked into the room.

[byne]

thisisme8 wrote...

byne wrote...

My only real complaint regarding Dawnguard is lack of being able to marry a certain NPC. They build up a romance but then do nothing with it.

Don't worry, thanks to the modding community, not only will you be able to marry her, but she'll be wearing nothing but a thong and a katana the next time you load your game.

I play on xbox, so even if I wanted to download such a mod (and I dont), I wouldnt be able to.

[Daryslash]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Daryslash wrote...

Why EXACTLY did they recommend we load a save game from before the Cerberus Base? The only difference from before is a moment before entering the beam, when you tell your squadmates to get out, so we could just have loaded a game from before the beam run and saved a lot of time watching the same scenes we watched a thousand times and killing cerberus operatives and reapers forces we were tired of killing.

So yeah, why make us go through all that again? Any ideas, anyone?

I saw A LOT of new differences that actually made the endings way better. I think Bioware abandoned the Hero's Journey trope at the last minute, but the endings were more diverse and much more palatable.

What the hell are you talking about? I know the endings are different. I'm talking about the scenes from the start of the Cereberus Base mission until the beam run. They're all the same. Why make us play them again?

Modifié par Daryslash, 27 juin 2012 - 08:37 .

[plfranke]

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@byne: Did you miss the last reply?

Yes, but I went back and read it. High EMS destroy doesnt do any of those things.

Destroy doesnt go against my principles, because I do understand that there will be sacrifices in war. The geth knew that. EDI knew that. I'm not forcing anything on them that they didnt understand was a possibility.

Well, that's just one whole civilization wiped out + EDI + the Reapers themselves. Moreover, the relays are destroyed with no chance to rebuild (only in Destroy). Hackett is as always proud and happy while people of the Galaxy are cut off of each other, stuck in nowhere, starving, dying, cursing Shepard. And Hackett just sails slowly through space near a broken mass relay. Optimistic. We'll manage somehow. Just wasting decades on rebuilding what was unnecessarily destroyed.

It makes you wonder why the driving force of all 3 games is suddenly painted in the worst light.

The relays can be rebuilt. There is a lot of hope in the high EMS Destroy. It felt right just getting the Reapers out of the way and letting civilization build itself again after the war.

Also, i know they're in every ending but, *sniff* baby Krogan. So cute! My wife was watching me play the ending and she Daww'ed at that slide.

I didn't say there wasn't hope I said it was painted in the worst light. In high destroy you're going to take a lot more time rebuilding the relays and be a lot less advanced than in a civilization being helped and protected by the reapers. And in synthesis everyone is at the peak of evolution

Destroy is bootstrappy freedom. Control and Synthesis is accepting the surrender of the enemy and benefitting from their technology.

right because destroying the species you just helped gain consciousness and setting yourself up for future wars with synthetics is in no way surrender. If you really want freedom pick reject.

[BatmanTurian]

Arian Dynas wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

alright, ladies and gentleman, I'm off to finally go play Dawnguard.
It's going to be-









wait for it-









legendary!

>.< I hate you. I have Skyrim on PC and can't even touch Dawnguard for a month or more. We don't even have a release date.

I'm REALLY excited for Dawnguard. On the plus side, at least I can kill mother****ers while on my horse now.

Sorry. I'll let you know what I think though, how's that? I won't spoiler anything.

[Xavendithas]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Here's something I just thought of. What if Harbinger wasn't really ignoring the normandy but was just waiting for Shepard to get away from it. Then, when Shepard gets up, Harbinger takes off to chase the Normandy.

It also makes me think that Harby knew that there was an indoctrinating device on board, and that the Normandy is clearly the flagship of the galactic fleet. Other important political/military leaders will be onboard at some point.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

byne wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

byne wrote...

My only real complaint regarding Dawnguard is lack of being able to marry a certain NPC. They build up a romance but then do nothing with it.

Don't worry, thanks to the modding community, not only will you be able to marry her, but she'll be wearing nothing but a thong and a katana the next time you load your game.

I play on xbox, so even if I wanted to download such a mod (and I dont), I wouldnt be able to.

You know, byne, there's something I just have to tell you - I imagine everyone here as his/her avatar - but since I know that you're a guy, you're an Asari with a male voice in my head right now.

Yeah.

[Dwailing]

Xavendithas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, Shepard looks MUCH more confused at how Anderson reached the control panel first than he used to.

I could be incorrectly remembering the scene, but the whispers also start as soon as Anderson tries to turn around and face Shepard. Pre-EC I thought the whispers started up when TIM walked into the room.

I don't remember, TBH, but it wouldn't surprise me if they DID change that.

[byne]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

byne wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

byne wrote...

My only real complaint regarding Dawnguard is lack of being able to marry a certain NPC. They build up a romance but then do nothing with it.

Don't worry, thanks to the modding community, not only will you be able to marry her, but she'll be wearing nothing but a thong and a katana the next time you load your game.

I play on xbox, so even if I wanted to download such a mod (and I dont), I wouldnt be able to.

You know, byne, there's something I just have to tell you - I imagine everyone here as his/her avatar - but since I know that you're a guy, you're an Asari with a male voice in my head right now.

Yeah.

The idea of a male asari weirds me out for some reason.

[BatmanTurian]

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

paxxton wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@byne: Did you miss the last reply?

Yes, but I went back and read it. High EMS destroy doesnt do any of those things.

Destroy doesnt go against my principles, because I do understand that there will be sacrifices in war. The geth knew that. EDI knew that. I'm not forcing anything on them that they didnt understand was a possibility.

Well, that's just one whole civilization wiped out + EDI + the Reapers themselves. Moreover, the relays are destroyed with no chance to rebuild (only in Destroy). Hackett is as always proud and happy while people of the Galaxy are cut off of each other, stuck in nowhere, starving, dying, cursing Shepard. And Hackett just sails slowly through space near a broken mass relay. Optimistic. We'll manage somehow. Just wasting decades on rebuilding what was unnecessarily destroyed.

It makes you wonder why the driving force of all 3 games is suddenly painted in the worst light.

The relays can be rebuilt. There is a lot of hope in the high EMS Destroy. It felt right just getting the Reapers out of the way and letting civilization build itself again after the war.

Also, i know they're in every ending but, *sniff* baby Krogan. So cute! My wife was watching me play the ending and she Daww'ed at that slide.

I didn't say there wasn't hope I said it was painted in the worst light. In high destroy you're going to take a lot more time rebuilding the relays and be a lot less advanced than in a civilization being helped and protected by the reapers. And in synthesis everyone is at the peak of evolution

Destroy is bootstrappy freedom. Control and Synthesis is accepting the surrender of the enemy and benefitting from their technology.

right because destroying the species you just helped gain consciousness and setting yourself up for future wars with synthetics is in no way surrender. If you really want freedom pick reject.

Reject is just giving up to the enemy. In war, there are sacrifices, ruthless calculus. Let a few billion die so a few billion could live. The geth themselves would give their lives for freedom for organics. They and EDI were ready to die. I felt a tug on my heart about it, don't get me wrong, but it's what I felt was the right choice and actually fit the narrative.

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

byne wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

byne wrote...

My only real complaint regarding Dawnguard is lack of being able to marry a certain NPC. They build up a romance but then do nothing with it.

Don't worry, thanks to the modding community, not only will you be able to marry her, but she'll be wearing nothing but a thong and a katana the next time you load your game.

I play on xbox, so even if I wanted to download such a mod (and I dont), I wouldnt be able to.

You know, byne, there's something I just have to tell you - I imagine everyone here as his/her avatar - but since I know that you're a guy, you're an Asari with a male voice in my head right now.

Yeah.

The idea of a male asari weirds me out for some reason.

Bioware was considering having a male Asari orignially, but the idea was dropped.

BTW, Byne, did you see my above response to the idea that Synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution?

Modifié par Dwailing, 27 juin 2012 - 08:40 .

[MaximizedAction]

plfranke wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Did anyone notice that if your teammates survive the run to the beam, they are seriously beaten up and bleeding but in a few minutes later they look better than ever. IT or is Chawkwas magic??

Yep, noticed it. Could be Chawkwas, since she restored Garrus in ME2 similarly well. After all, the squad didn't even seem to suffer from that big injuries.

Indeed.  Was the weakest hand waving I've ever seen - they didn't even just have the Normandy arriving to pick up survivors AFTER Harbinger leaves - that has to be obviously, no-one can be that thick while writing a script can they?

yeah, that shot was cool: Le Normandy just derping around while Harbinger is idling in the background. But then again, maybe that was the Catalyst wanting Shepard to reach the beam.

not only that but how did shepard survive harbinger's beam in the first place? everyone else got slaughtered, heavy tanks and gunships were getting ripped apart but shepard makes it out alive? you can't just chauk impossible feats up to Shepard's will there are some things that just go too far. For that matter Anderson isn't even scratched, the fact that this wasn't elaborated on makes me think it is meant to be questioned.

And questioning is what I fully intend to do with the EC...down to every microsecond of it.

Yes, BW did make Anti-IT's embrace the literal endings more, while keeping many 'IT-hints' like Shep bleading out and Anderson not. But they also cleaned up the endings immensly, like no clipping keepers.

All in all, the ending seems now more tidied up. Literal endings are nice, because if you don't know what to look for then these endings are good closure. If however, you want too look closer, there's still non-trivial stuff to speculate about.

Things that now don't seem so much like development errors anymore, but intended.

[BatmanTurian]

Daryslash wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Daryslash wrote...

Why EXACTLY did they recommend we load a save game from before the Cerberus Base? The only difference from before is a moment before entering the beam, when you tell your squadmates to get out, so we could just have loaded a game from before the beam run and saved a lot of time watching the same scenes we watched a thousand times and killing cerberus operatives and reapers forces we were tired of killing.

So yeah, why make us go through all that again? Any ideas, anyone?

I saw A LOT of new differences that actually made the endings way better. I think Bioware abandoned the Hero's Journey trope at the last minute, but the endings were more diverse and much more palatable.

What the hell are you talking about? I know the endings are different. I'm talking about the scenes from the start of the Cereberus Base mission until the beam run. They're all the same. Why make us play them again?

Again, there were some minor differences. Maybe you didn't notice them, but I did. To each their own.