55528 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Sharrah]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

So can anyone here give an explanation on how IT is still possible now that the refuse option doesn't awaken Shepard?

Can you say that Shep didn't wake up?  Part of my frustration with "Rejection" is that it is more ambiguous than the original endings.  If you have seen all the choices you know that it drastically changes the outcome...but not how.  If anything the "Rejection" ending is the one that is most open to new conten - whether that be in the form of post-ending DLC or a new game...

[D.Sharrah]

Since this seems to be getting lost in the wave of posts...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposting for new page...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I had some thoughts about what the extended endings do to impact some of the themes of the game.  And while I don't want to over simplify what is there, I thought there was some pretty inherent conclusions that you could draw based on certain themes.  For the most part I think that there is some interesting stuff there.  Here are just some of my speculations (as it pertains to themes):

Sacrifice

Control - Sacrifices Shep's humanity (and IMHO not for the better, since it gives us the birth of Harpard, the new Reaper overlord)

Destroy - Sacrifices Synthetics/Tech.

*As a quick aside, notice that these first two are polar opposites.

Synthesis - This is one that I have struggled to find a unifying piece...the best that I could come up was Shep.  Since it is the only ending that some part of Shep does not live on.

Refusal/Rejection - Interesting enough this one was the easiest for me to see - Shep sacrifices the current cycle in the hopes that a better solution will be found.

For me, I still think that destroy is my preferred choice.  But what Bioware was able to present with the idea of rejecting the Catalyst is compelling...it seems that most have gotten there by turning around to shoot the Catalyst; but for me it was much more powerful when the rejection comes from the dialogue choices.  That option being present was more in line with my Shepard - never wanting to give up on anyone (its why he saved the Rachni, made peace b/w the Geth and Quarians, cured the Genophage, etc.).

[JezuzGumball]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

So can anyone here give an explanation on how IT is still possible now that the refuse option doesn't awaken Shepard?

Shooting the catalyst isn't the only way of getting that ending. You can refuse through dialogue. Listen to what shepard says, he or she says they can "die knowing they tried everything [they] could to stop the reapers", which I interpret as shepard dying at peace, not waking up. The scene at the very end could be interpretted as a literal end, if shepard did not wake up.

That's my two cents.

[onetrueduder]

Ok here goes. Don't hit me...

Destroy : Indoctrination Fails - Shep lives

Synthesis : What the reapers have been going for all along, regardless of how you cut it.

Control : Shepard becomes the new Harbinger and sounds almost exactly like IM in his little speech afterwards. Sounds just like Shepard's ambition talking, but losing his identity would probably change that. Too creepy to be true, seems more like a vision.

Refuse : Starb*tch loses his coy little disguise because Indoctrination isn't an option anymore, and Shep pulls a Saren / IM and can't make a choice either way, therefore killing himself. Crucible doesn't fire, cycle continues.

[Turbo_J]

D.Sharrah wrote...

@Turbo_J: First time I have had a chance to say this to you...nice work on Hellish's video. I enjoyed it and you (and Hellish) are to be commended for all of your hard work. Thanks!

Thanks! It was fun to work on even though it just required playing and recording all three games a lot. I was up for about 30 hours due to the EC speculation that started on Thursday.

We have another surprise coming. No ETA. I think Hellish is catching up on some much needed sleep. Me... I'm back to clip mining in ME2.

[MaximizedAction]

I see 'em trolls comin'.

So, there's me sayin good night. May the speculations continue!

[Turbo_J]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

So can anyone here give an explanation on how IT is still possible now that the refuse option doesn't awaken Shepard?

Inaction is as bad or worse than the wrong action. Inaction is in a sense, giving up the fight. However, we don't see anything happen to Shep at all, so it's hard to say if that results in death.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 27 juin 2012 - 11:47 .

[MaximizedAction]

onetrueduder wrote...

Ok here goes. Don't hit me...

Destroy : Indoctrination Fails - Shep lives

Synthesis : What the reapers have been going for all along, regardless of how you cut it.

Control : Shepard becomes the new Harbinger and sounds almost exactly like IM in his little speech afterwards. Sounds just like Shepard's ambition talking, but losing his identity would probably change that. Too creepy to be true, seems more like a vision.

Refuse : Starb*tch loses his coy little disguise because Indoctrination isn't an option anymore, and Shep pulls a Saren / IM and can't make a choice either way, therefore killing himself. Crucible doesn't fire, cycle continues.

Why do you think that Shepard shot himself in refuse?

EDIT: 'd by Turbo_J by providing answer.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 27 juin 2012 - 11:47 .

[Arian Dynas]

DrTsoni wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Really, the literal ending just has a
number of things that are quite simply CLEARLY intentional (since the
require more programming to do) that from the sound of it are still
there.

A literal ending has to explain the purpose of the dreams,
why the child can seemingly teleport,
why the garden disappears after the scene,
how the kid can move so damn fast from one location to another,
the scream you can hear when the music is turned off during the kid's death scene,
Why it is Shepard is NOT indoctrinated,
The Starchild's circular logic
Why it is that we do a complete 180 on the themes in the last 5 minutes,
Why two of the endings align so perfectly with the motivations of Saren and The Illusive Man,
Why the gun morphs in the Destroy ending, as well as why the sound changes,
The reasons for the presence of infrasound,
Why Harbinger didn't blow the Normandy out of the sky,
How the Normandy crew knows Anderson is dead, yet has no confirmation on Shepard,
Why the Starchild's voice changes in "Reject"
Why the Starchild TOOK the shape of a child to begin with, and how,
Why Harbinger seemed to completely lose interest in Shepard in this game since the last one,
What was the point of The Arrival if they don't make use of the info about Mass Relays blowing up,
Why Object Rho did nothing to indoctrinate Shepard, even though it IS canon,
Why the Indoctrination subplot was abandoned and never picked up (supposedly according to Final Hours)
Why Shepard starts bleeding after Anderson dies,
Why The Illusive Man has gone from "I don't need you" to "I need you badly."

In a literal ending, my best guess is...
The dreams really are just a poor attempt at PTSD.
They somewhat explained some of the circular logic.
Harbinger left the Normandy because plot armour?
Perhaps Hackett heard the last conversation with Anderson.
Starchild wanted a form familiar to Shepard (which works both for IT and literally).
Harbinger doesn't lose interest, it just has more important things to do. He's supposedly a leader of sorts.
Is Shepard still bleeding during the EC? I must've missed more than I thought...
Everything else, your guess is as good as mine. It all supports IT, for sure.

So... let's see the explanations then are;
Bad writing
Bad writing
Bad writing
Bad writing
Assumption
Assumption

There are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more perhapses in those explanations than I am happy with.

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Since this seems to be getting lost in the wave of posts...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposting for new page...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I had some thoughts about what the extended endings do to impact some of the themes of the game.  And while I don't want to over simplify what is there, I thought there was some pretty inherent conclusions that you could draw based on certain themes.  For the most part I think that there is some interesting stuff there.  Here are just some of my speculations (as it pertains to themes):

Sacrifice

Control - Sacrifices Shep's humanity (and IMHO not for the better, since it gives us the birth of Harpard, the new Reaper overlord)

Destroy - Sacrifices Synthetics/Tech.

*As a quick aside, notice that these first two are polar opposites.

Synthesis - This is one that I have struggled to find a unifying piece...the best that I could come up was Shep.  Since it is the only ending that some part of Shep does not live on.

Refusal/Rejection - Interesting enough this one was the easiest for me to see - Shep sacrifices the current cycle in the hopes that a better solution will be found.

For me, I still think that destroy is my preferred choice.  But what Bioware was able to present with the idea of rejecting the Catalyst is compelling...it seems that most have gotten there by turning around to shoot the Catalyst; but for me it was much more powerful when the rejection comes from the dialogue choices.  That option being present was more in line with my Shepard - never wanting to give up on anyone (its why he saved the Rachni, made peace b/w the Geth and Quarians, cured the Genophage, etc.).

I will answer. Synthesis is the happiest ending. Control has the most potential for development. Destroy is like an ending to a total war - nothing is going to be the same and everything is going to be harder.

Rejection is either Shepard is unable to choose and no longer useful to the Reapers or he sees that Starchild is deceiving him and decides not to play the game any more.

Modifié par paxxton, 27 juin 2012 - 11:53 .

[ThisOneIsPunny]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Really, the literal ending just has a number of things that are quite simply CLEARLY intentional (since the require more programming to do) that from the sound of it are still there.

A literal ending has to explain the purpose of the dreams,
why the child can seemingly teleport,
why the garden disappears after the scene,
how the kid can move so damn fast from one location to another,
the scream you can hear when the music is turned off during the kid's death scene,
Why it is Shepard is NOT indoctrinated,
The Starchild's circular logic
Why it is that we do a complete 180 on the themes in the last 5 minutes,
Why two of the endings align so perfectly with the motivations of Saren and The Illusive Man,
Why the gun morphs in the Destroy ending, as well as why the sound changes,
The reasons for the presence of infrasound,
Why Harbinger didn't blow the Normandy out of the sky,
How the Normandy crew knows Anderson is dead, yet has no confirmation on Shepard,
Why the Starchild's voice changes in "Reject"
Why the Starchild TOOK the shape of a child to begin with, and how,
Why Harbinger seemed to completely lose interest in Shepard in this game since the last one,
What was the point of The Arrival if they don't make use of the info about Mass Relays blowing up,
Why Object Rho did nothing to indoctrinate Shepard, even though it IS canon,
Why the Indoctrination subplot was abandoned and never picked up (supposedly according to Final Hours)
Why Shepard starts bleeding after Anderson dies,
Why The Illusive Man has gone from "I don't need you" to "I need you badly."

Better yet, how the hell did the REST of the crew get on the Normandy if they were all at the London FOB?
How did they even get to the London FOB?

[v0rt3x22]

Guys I'm running a popularity poll on purely the idea of IT.

This is not a poll on whether you believe in IT - but whether you would've liked the idea - if they had confirmed it in EC or in the original ME3 ending.

http://social.biowar...57/polls/35866/

Modifié par v0rt3x22, 27 juin 2012 - 11:50 .

[D.Sharrah]

Turbo_J wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

@Turbo_J: First time I have had a chance to say this to you...nice work on Hellish's video. I enjoyed it and you (and Hellish) are to be commended for all of your hard work. Thanks!

Thanks! It was fun to work on even though it just required playing and recording all three games a lot. I was up for about 30 hours due to the EC speculation that started on Thursday.

We have another surprise coming. No ETA. I think Hellish is catching up on some much needed sleep. Me... I'm back to clip mining in ME2.

Hellish's rest is well deserved.

I may not be able to help with the clip mining...but I can brainstorm with the bes'o'em - let me know if you need anyone to throw ideas off of...

[ZerebusPrime]

MaximizedAction wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Did anyone else feel like they made the mix of Shep's voice/child's voice for the Catalyst more apparent? I felt like it was alot easier to hear the Male Shep voice that was mixed in (while playing my Male Shep - haven't played fem Shep through the EC yet). If they did, why? The only thing that I can come up with is if it is more apparent to try to convince Shep that the ideas for the choices are his/her own...

To everyone that responded...did this give you more hope for IT?  It did for me...I still can't put my finger on it, but there is something fishy about the EC...

Sure it's fishy. At least now, it is more a fleshed-out-kind-of-fishy.

But I also think it is now better explainable with the literal endings. If you trust the Catalyst, then a lot seems to make sense now, not everything, but most stuff.

Moreover, I find it highly interesting, how, if you trust the Catalyst, the principle of indoctrination become null and void. Just like IT becomes (or remains even more) less of a deal maker or breaker.

Of course, trusting the Catalyst would be the whole point of indoctrination in general.  I don't trust him.  I can't trust him.  I've seen what the Reapers do to those who trust them.  If the Catalyst is to be believed, then the very first act of the Reapers' existance was betraying those who trusted them (ie "Trust me: I'm a liar!").  They're just that untrustworthy.

I do also think that the ending remains explicitly fishy in several places, especially starting when Harbinger booms "serve us" and continuing with the defibrulator at the exact moment we hear Anderson call out to Shepard.  And if there was an explicit explanation for Anderson making it to the beam, I missed it.

I find it entirely plausible that Harbinger hooked into Shepard's mind somehow down on Earth and then remote controlled the Citadel's actions to allow the nonthreat that is the Crucible to dock.  From then on, at least half of what we see is an illusion.

What I most want, however, is either an out or a trump card that does not involve submitting to one of three handouts offered by the Reapers.  Refuse is a step in the right direcion and, for now, my choice canonical.  I just wish I could refuse the Catalyst AND fire the Crucible.




I also want a model of that black and purple Reaper.

[Auralius Carolus]

comrade gando wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Hey fellas! I'm back!

Well, June 26 has come and gone and the ending stick sucks- considering the rest of the series.

So, what have we learned?

No playing on the pool table

jk don't get hyped up about anything bioware says anymore. it's all garbage and until they fix this broke ass ending I'm not spending money on their games.

Neither am I. However, I have found a possible remake of the ending- as well as a possible cinematic of Tali's face.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Salient Archer]

I'm already amazed at how quickly everyone is back up on their feet and swinging again. It's inspiring to say the least. Myself however haven't had the chance to process let alone analyse what I've witnessed in these edited and extended sections of the game; I'd actually be interested to see if BioWare actually did any subtle tweaks earlier in the game (little fixes to bugs possibly, or thematic inconsistencies). I did however find it interesting how they've know boosted the apparence of Shep's own voice with that of StarBingers, so I'm wondering what else they've done.... Anyway, good work guys, keep it going.

[smokingotter1]

Ok when meeting up with TIM/Anderson is the whispers a lot more audible this time? Also when Shepard talks to TIM about breaking their hold "don't let them control you" the camera this time in EC makes it look like she/he is speaking directly to you the player, weird.

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Since this seems to be getting lost in the wave of posts...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposting for new page...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Snip...

I will answer. Synthesis is the happiest ending. Control has the most potential for development. Destroy is like an ending to a total war - nothing is going to be the same and everything is going to be harder.

Rejection is either Shepard is unable to choose and no longer useful to the Reapers or he sees that Starchild is deceiving him and decides not to play the game any more.

I posted this earlier that summarizes how I felt about each ending:

Control - just down right sinister, amlost creepingly so.

Synthesis - Looks pretty on the surface, best paced and easily the one that stirred the most emotion (IMHO). But it just has that too good to be true feeling to it...

Destroy - was oddly flat, almost no emotion there for me. Maybe because too much of response was tied up with expecting to actually see the reunion w/the crew and LI.

Reject - was compelling, if destroy wasn't an option, I think I would pick this. But it just left it too open ended...

Like I said in the edit to my post, I get the feeling that they are holding something else back - something that will only unlock with future DLC? - there is just something about the way the catalyst says, "....the Crucible, is mostly intact..."; despite my EMS being over 7000...

[ThE_LoNe_R4nGeR]

BatmanTurian wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Anything interesting happen? I don't have the will to catch up with this thread x]

I posted this, and cited you as a source of inspiration.

Basically, I'm going for the waking nightmare theory from beam to the decision in the decision chamber. And some other stuff still seems viable. But i explained how I felt the story went, and why I felt it went wrong and where.

That was brilliant.  I'd disagree with some things (going against the grain in storytelling, I think its fine to differ from tradtition) but everything is well thought out and mostly makes sense if you want to believe in the Indoctrination Theory post-EC.  Good job!

[paxxton]

Also, during the Ascension of Shepard to the Catalyst chamber there's no white box around the path the platform ascends.
When Joker gets out of the Normandy you can see the inside of the ship.
When looking around after the arrival in the Catalyst chamber Shepard looks on both the Control and the Destroy options and then alsoi on the beam.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 juin 2012 - 12:06 .

[onetrueduder]

MaximizedAction wrote...

onetrueduder wrote...

Ok here goes. Don't hit me...

Destroy : Indoctrination Fails - Shep lives

Synthesis : What the reapers have been going for all along, regardless of how you cut it.

Control : Shepard becomes the new Harbinger and sounds almost exactly like IM in his little speech afterwards. Sounds just like Shepard's ambition talking, but losing his identity would probably change that. Too creepy to be true, seems more like a vision.

Refuse : Starb*tch loses his coy little disguise because Indoctrination isn't an option anymore, and Shep pulls a Saren / IM and can't make a choice either way, therefore killing himself. Crucible doesn't fire, cycle continues.

Why do you think that Shepard shot himself in refuse?

EDIT: 'd by Turbo_J by providing answer.

I posted on this earlier.  For me, since my first playthrough I saw Indoc hints through the whole game, so by the time Starkid showed up, I knew that sh*t couldn't be real.  I figured Shep was just standing at that panel with and Indoc battle going on in his head,  with Refuse, I heard the reaper voice say "So be it" and then you see that everyone dies 'cause the Crucible didn't activate.  Well I figured either Shep just bleeds to death, or that he shot himself (because thats the popular thing to do when Indoc prevents you from making the right decision, but you still have to will to resist the wrong one.) 

Indoctrination has been my interpretation from day one, anyone who doesn't see it that way, thats THEIR interpretation.  I'm just trying to see how my original interpretation fits with the new stuff that's been added.  Works for me.

[Auralius Carolus]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Ok when meeting up with TIM/Anderson is the whispers a lot more audible this time? Also when Shepard talks to TIM about breaking their hold "don't let them control you" the camera this time in EC makes it look like she/he is speaking directly to you the player, weird.

I too was getting the impression that the whispers were clearer and louder; that was about the only thing I noticed about Cronos station- the dream before. I haven't gone over enough for analysis though.

And I didn't notice the camera focusing on the player.

[D.Sharrah]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Hey fellas! I'm back!

Well, June 26 has come and gone and the ending stick sucks- considering the rest of the series.

So, what have we learned?

No playing on the pool table

jk don't get hyped up about anything bioware says anymore. it's all garbage and until they fix this broke ass ending I'm not spending money on their games.

Neither am I. However, I have found a possible remake of the ending- as well as a possible cinematic of Tali's face.

www.youtube.com/watch

That was hilarious!

[Turbo_J]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

@Turbo_J: First time I have had a chance to say this to you...nice work on Hellish's video. I enjoyed it and you (and Hellish) are to be commended for all of your hard work. Thanks!

Thanks! It was fun to work on even though it just required playing and recording all three games a lot. I was up for about 30 hours due to the EC speculation that started on Thursday.

We have another surprise coming. No ETA. I think Hellish is catching up on some much needed sleep. Me... I'm back to clip mining in ME2.

Hellish's rest is well deserved.

I may not be able to help with the clip mining...but I can brainstorm with the bes'o'em - let me know if you need anyone to throw ideas off of...

The current work is done, just needs to be rendered.

We are thinking of another project but it's up in the air still. I need to write it first. I have most of it in my head. It will involve a lot more dev time though. I had all but given up on the idea with the EC release coming so quickly after talking to Hellish about it, but given the state of the endings still, it may be worth making.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

No really, guys.
How did the rest of shepard's crew get on the normandy when they were all at the FOB saying final goodbyes, the shuttles were shot down just getting there, and Normandy joined Sword in the fight against the reapers?
Teleporting squadmates? Still a thing.