55528 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Just beat the game. I feel like they copped out and did not side with either camp in this new ending.

Well yeah, but remember, discruntled folk are the ones who shout the loudest, not good PR.

[Andromidius]

Turbo_J wrote...
Wrex also brain faded on the baby name again. He said on Tuchanka that HE may name a girl Mordin. On Earth, he claims Bakara wants to name one of the kids Mordin and he has no idea why... hurr durr or clue?

You know something...  You're right.  I remember that comment rubbing me the wrong way, but I brushed it aside.

Naming his firstborn Mordin was WREX's idea, not Eve's.

Also, those Krogan he's addressing are all very...  Quiet.  And disciplined.  Not doing their usual chest-pounding and roaring.

...I'm really very confused what Bioware's intention was.

[Nightingale]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Oh and I completely forgot the husk eyes, the Reaper cables, the Breath Scene, Shepard's Survival and violent rape of scientific laws that Synthesis, which still remains unexplained, is. And we STILL have no reason to beleive the star child.

Also, just realized, even with the addition of Reject, it still comes down to whether or not we accept or reject the Starchild's thesis. Destroy is only an attractive option if we do not believe we are being told the truth, even Reject requires Shepard to believe what the Starchild is telling him is true and thus refuse to make a choice. Rejection is being noncommittal.

On the contrary, I agree with Megumi. I think it's more Shepard saying "screw your options, we'll find our own way." That doesn't necesarily mean s/he believes Starchild. It just means they don't accept their logic or "solutions." If you think of it another way, Destroy requires you to believe that it actually will destroy the Reapers, so you're still taking his word for it. Whereas with Reject, you simply walk away. You don't have to believe him to do that.

[GethPrimeMKII]

So I take it both IT and Pro-end sides are still alive and kicking?

[Andromidius]

DJBare wrote...

This thread took on a whole new life after EC. not surprising I guess, but keeping up is a bit of a chore now, I don't know if this has already been said but....

Main problem with that is ME1 and ME2.  Neither Sovereign or Harbinger even hint at it, both seem arrogantly confident and prideful.

And why would Harbinger suddenly have the courage to ask for help moments before shooting the person supposedly coming to save him?  And when so close to his master?  Makes no sense at all, sorry.

I think its another part of the mind screw - something to twist Shepard's mind into thinking the Reapers are misunderstood and need sympathy.  Rather then burning with fire like the abominations they really are.

[Big Bad]

Big Bad wrote...

Yesterday, I was trying to explain to my non-gamer sister why I find the literal interpretation of the ending so abhorrent.  She has almost certainly never even heard of Mass Effect, so I tried to find something analogous that might make her understand...

Imagine that at the end of the Harry Potter series, Harry confronts Voldemort who proceeds to explain that he had committed countless murders and atrocities not because he was an evil dude, but because he was trying to protect all creatures with magical abilities from destruction at the hands of the Muggles.    You see, he says, Muggles will eventually come to learn about the existence of magic, and out of fear or jealousy they will kill everyone with magical talents.  Nevermind that Harry had only recently learned to get along with his Muggle relatives; and nevermind that the series has consistently attempted to show the harm that is done when people use a person's magical abilities (or lack thereof) as a basis for bigotry (calling people "Mud-bloods" and such).  Nevermind all that, says Voldemort.  You just have to trust me that the Muggles are your mortal enemies, and my intentions have been nothing but noble this whole time!

Then, because Harry is the only wizard that has come even close to defeating him, Voldemort decides that maybe he should change his tactics, though he certainly still believes that muggles and the wizarding community can never coexist.  He decides to give Harry three choices:

1) Harry can use a newly-discovered spell that will kill Voldemort and all his Death Eaters, but it will also kill everybody at Hogwarts and,  quite possibly, Harry himself.  Doing this will spare the rest of the wizarding community for the moment, but it will also not prevent the coming genocide of the wizards at the hands of the muggles

2) Harry can allow himself to be killed, but his spirit will merge with Voldemort's body, and Harry will become the most powerful  wizard in existence.  He can then use these powers to control the Death Eaters and use them in some unspecified fashion to prevent genocide.

3)  Finally, Harry could use a different newly-discovered spell.  This spell would alter all sentient beings so that Muggles would have some limited magical abilities, and the wizards would have their power reduced to match the Muggles.  Basically, from a magical standpoint, everybody would be the same, so, in theory, there would be no need for conflict.  This spell, has the unfortunate side-effect of killing the wizard who uses it, and only Harry is capable of peforming it (for some reason). 

After Voldemort presents these options, Harry, one of the most strong-willed and independent boys to ever live, accepts with little disagreement that what Voldemort  - the wizard who murdered his parents in cold blood - is telling him is the truth.  He then picks one of the three options.  Harry never sees Ron or Hermione again, and he never gets the chance to
settle down into a well-earned restful life with Ginny Weasley.  The end.

I know the analogy isn't perfect, but it pretty much conveys the reasons why I hate the (literal) ending of ME3.  The EC has done little to make me hate it less.  Basically, the literal endings "break" the ME universe for me.

I'm reposting this for the new page because I almost never write walls of text! 

Thoughts?

[Turbo_J]

Andromidius wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...
Wrex also brain faded on the baby name again. He said on Tuchanka that HE may name a girl Mordin. On Earth, he claims Bakara wants to name one of the kids Mordin and he has no idea why... hurr durr or clue?

You know something...  You're right.  I remember that comment rubbing me the wrong way, but I brushed it aside.

Naming his firstborn Mordin was WREX's idea, not Eve's.

Also, those Krogan he's addressing are all very...  Quiet.  And disciplined.  Not doing their usual chest-pounding and roaring.

...I'm really very confused what Bioware's intention was.

And 'few'. There are billions of Krogan despite the genophage. Shep sees soldiers well behaved and 'falling in line' when being address by a commander... human soldiers - these are obviously not human, but they behave exacly like human soldiers would.

"the environment is constructed from your memories Shepard, Commander."

Modifié par Turbo_J, 28 juin 2012 - 12:57 .

[Andromidius]

DrTsoni wrote...
On the contrary, I agree with Megumi. I think it's more Shepard saying "screw your options, we'll find our own way." That doesn't necesarily mean s/he believes Starchild. It just means they don't accept their logic or "solutions." If you think of it another way, Destroy requires you to believe that it actually will destroy the Reapers, so you're still taking his word for it. Whereas with Reject, you simply walk away. You don't have to believe him to do that.

I'd be inclined to believe this.  Only problem is, ironically, the breath scene if you pick Destroy.

Starbinger gets angry if you reject him.  Not if you decide to destroy him.  Which is insane all by itself.

[Nightingale]

Andromidius wrote...

DJBare wrote...

This thread took on a whole new life after EC. not surprising I guess, but keeping up is a bit of a chore now, I don't know if this has already been said but....

Main problem with that is ME1 and ME2.  Neither Sovereign or Harbinger even hint at it, both seem arrogantly confident and prideful.

And why would Harbinger suddenly have the courage to ask for help moments before shooting the person supposedly coming to save him?  And when so close to his master?  Makes no sense at all, sorry.

I think its another part of the mind screw - something to twist Shepard's mind into thinking the Reapers are misunderstood and need sympathy.  Rather then burning with fire like the abominations they really are.

Unless Harbinger really is the first Reaper, created from the Starchild's creators by force. It could be their attempt at getting Shepard to free them.

[paxxton]

LOL. So far there are mostly sound files with noise and sound files with people laughing.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 juin 2012 - 01:00 .

[Andromidius]

Turbo_J wrote...

And 'few'. There are billions of Krogan despite the genophage. Shep sees soldiers well behaved and 'falling in line' when being address by a commander... human soldiers - these are obviously not human, but they behave exacly like human soldiers would.

"the environment is constructed from your memories Shepard, Commander."

I can forgive the 'fewness' of the Krogan there.  They could be squad leaders or his own bodyguard.

But they are very quiet.  Moreso then I'd even imagine Human soldiers - there's no cheering even.

Its...unreal.

[BatmanTurian]

ThE_LoNe_R4nGeR wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Anything interesting happen? I don't have the will to catch up with this thread x]

I posted this, and cited you as a source of inspiration.

Basically, I'm going for the waking nightmare theory from beam to the decision in the decision chamber. And some other stuff still seems viable. But i explained how I felt the story went, and why I felt it went wrong and where.

That was brilliant.  I'd disagree with some things (going against the grain in storytelling, I think its fine to differ from tradtition) but everything is well thought out and mostly makes sense if you want to believe in the Indoctrination Theory post-EC.  Good job!

Going against the grain in storytelling is all well and good, but when you've hammered into the viewer's/gamer's/reader's head over and over again that the enemy needs to be destroyed, then suddenly say " oh, no, actually it's better if you enslave or make peace with them. " No, just no. It breaks the narrative very hard. I'd want to have a couple hours with Casey and Mac and ask why they decided to destroy their Hero's Journey in the last 5 mins with two options that Ulysses, Beowulf, St. George, Gilgamesh, Hercules, and Perseus would have laughed at.

[Andromidius]

DrTsoni wrote...
Unless Harbinger really is the first Reaper, created from the Starchild's creators by force. It could be their attempt at getting Shepard to free them.

Still wouldn't explain why Harbinger doesn't mention it before.  When he's alone and not surrounded by other Reapers, with the Catalyst nearby.

[lex0r11]

Hey guys, someone give me a sitrep please. Or give me something to do.

Hope everyone is being nice.

[Arian Dynas]

DrTsoni wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Oh and I completely forgot the husk eyes, the Reaper cables, the Breath Scene, Shepard's Survival and violent rape of scientific laws that Synthesis, which still remains unexplained, is. And we STILL have no reason to beleive the star child.

Also, just realized, even with the addition of Reject, it still comes down to whether or not we accept or reject the Starchild's thesis. Destroy is only an attractive option if we do not believe we are being told the truth, even Reject requires Shepard to believe what the Starchild is telling him is true and thus refuse to make a choice. Rejection is being noncommittal.

On the contrary, I agree with Megumi. I think it's more Shepard saying "screw your options, we'll find our own way." That doesn't necesarily mean s/he believes Starchild. It just means they don't accept their logic or "solutions." If you think of it another way, Destroy requires you to believe that it actually will destroy the Reapers, so you're still taking his word for it. Whereas with Reject, you simply walk away. You don't have to believe him to do that.

Destroy merely means you remain willing to Destroy the Reapers no matter the cost. Destroy is still not the option he wants you to take.

Refusing to agree with or accept his logic means you believe his thesis, the concept he based his logic on, to be incorrect. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Either that or the other possible interpretation is that Rejection is Shepard showing his hand before he can break free, when he chooses Destroy it's unexpected, when choosing Rejection he is under Harbinger's power, whom then chooses to simply give up on turning him and crushes him while he has the opportunity.

[Auralius Carolus]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Just beat the game. I feel like they copped out and did not side with either camp in this new ending.

Same. I honestly would have rather them just left it as-is. There wasn't enough there, anyway, to warrent the several hours to download and play through from Cronos Station.

Turds... the last 10 pages of the book are blank!

[Nightingale]

Andromidius wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...
On the contrary, I agree with Megumi. I think it's more Shepard saying "screw your options, we'll find our own way." That doesn't necesarily mean s/he believes Starchild. It just means they don't accept their logic or "solutions." If you think of it another way, Destroy requires you to believe that it actually will destroy the Reapers, so you're still taking his word for it. Whereas with Reject, you simply walk away. You don't have to believe him to do that.

I'd be inclined to believe this.  Only problem is, ironically, the breath scene if you pick Destroy.

Starbinger gets angry if you reject him.  Not if you decide to destroy him.  Which is insane all by itself.

We don't get to see what happens to Shepard after Reject. There's no way of know if s/he lives or dies so it's a bit difficult to argue either way.

You have a point about Starchild getting angry, though. I made the point on an earlier page that that works both ways, he could be angry that you refuse to become a Reaper slave or that you refuse to make the choice to change the cycle now that you finally have the capability to. Obviously he wouldn't want to be destroyed but it's still a change. And if IT were true, then it wouldn't destroy them at all, it's simply Shepard breaking free of indoctrination. Anyway, in the original ending he did kind of....leave in an angry manner. He lingered in Control, even smirking, but he left immediatly on Destroy in a similar way as Reject (minus the "SO BE IT," of course). I'm not sure he still does, though.

[EpyonX3]

Harbinger's Epic One Liner!

[Arian Dynas]

Big Bad wrote...

Big Bad wrote...
*snip*

I'm reposting this for the new page because I almost never write walls of text! 

Thoughts?

As a former Harry Potter fan, I feel you nailed the feeling here pretty well.

[v0rt3x22]

Say did any of the guys who made the IT Documentaries - come back on the DLC?

I heard Avavos (or whatever his name was) pulled out

[Xavendithas]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Just beat the game. I feel like they copped out and did not side with either camp in this new ending.

To be fair, BioWare did exactly what they said they were going to do. They did add enough new material supporting both the literalist and the IT folks that the divide is even more pronounced now.

[Turbo_J]

Andromidius wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...
On the contrary, I agree with Megumi. I think it's more Shepard saying "screw your options, we'll find our own way." That doesn't necesarily mean s/he believes Starchild. It just means they don't accept their logic or "solutions." If you think of it another way, Destroy requires you to believe that it actually will destroy the Reapers, so you're still taking his word for it. Whereas with Reject, you simply walk away. You don't have to believe him to do that.

I'd be inclined to believe this.  Only problem is, ironically, the breath scene if you pick Destroy.

Starbinger gets angry if you reject him.  Not if you decide to destroy him.  Which is insane all by itself.

Shepard's subconcious is ultimately determing the events following the choice, but it is influenced by Reaper twist. Harbi's in his/her head, (evident with the TIM/Anderson confrontation. Shepard's inaction), unless will power and focus to destroy the reapers pushes him out. With rejection, Harbi is still an influence to some degree and Shep's inaction is actuallu OOC. It's something the player would force upon Shepard, not something the Shepard's most of us have helped guide, would actually choose to do.

"You're abandoning your mission!? All the losses in this war have no honor or purpose if the mission fails."

[Arian Dynas]

Xavendithas wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Just beat the game. I feel like they copped out and did not side with either camp in this new ending.

To be fair, BioWare did exactly what they said they were going to do. They did add enough new material supporting both the literalist and the IT folks that the divide is even more pronounced now.

Our real problem is we put all our hopes in the Extended Cut, which did only the thing it was intended to do.

Give us the sort ending they originally wanted on disc.

Seriously, look at the Prima Guide, the endings now match what's in there.

We're right back where we started.

[Big Bad]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Big Bad wrote...
*snip*

I'm reposting this for the new page because I almost never write walls of text! 

Thoughts?

As a former Harry Potter fan, I feel you nailed the feeling here pretty well.

Thanks.  It honestly bewilders me how any fan of the series could genuinely like the ending of ME3.  Not that I'm judging (or at least I am trying not to judge), I just don't understand.

edit:  And of course I'm talking again about the literal interpretation.  Honestly, I'm pretty discouraged about IT at the moment, so I'm kind of treating the literal view as the intended interpretation.

I want to believe, though. 

Modifié par Big Bad, 28 juin 2012 - 01:16 .

[paxxton]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Harbinger's Epic One Liner!

So you also heard it?