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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#32426
Dwailing

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Also, I'm thinking about what Maximized and I came up with earlier. He says that he heard the Anderson grunt in the Carnifex sound. I'm not so sure, but I should probably listen to the Anderson grunt more closely before commenting on whether it IS there or not. However, one thing I AM certain of, is that part of the echo of the Carnifex during the final scene in the Catalyst chamber DOES play when you alt-tab out of the game. Is it the Anderson grunt? I'm not sure if I hear a grunt, but I do KNOW that I hear part of the Carnifex echo played when you alt-tab, and that's enough for me to say something is up. I think, though I'm not certain, that the echo is played underneath the drums in the scene. If someone else could check this out and confirm it (Megumi or lex0r? Would either of you be willing to check?), I would be a very happy Turian. ;)

For the technical side: If there is echo you always hear it, even when alt tab, because of the way it was made. It grabs a set stream and replays it after a delay, that is why you hear it when alt tab. When using alt tab the source stream is set inactive and doesn't update the echo, because of that you only hear the echo up to where it was updated for the last time.


Yeah, I do get that, I think.  But what I'm saying is why would they have part of the echo from the gunshots of the Carnifex on what would seem to be a CONSTANT loop?

#32427
MegumiAzusa

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Dwailing wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I remember that someone brought it up earlier that Harbinger letting the Normandy go might have been so that it would have leverage so that Shepard wouldn't want to choose Destroy since EDI would still be alive.


That's the first plausible explaination I've heard.  Kudos to whoever thought that up :)

Though quite why they couldn't do it before or after the beam run...  Still seems...  Unclear...

Goodness me, speculation for everyone indeed.

That would be me :P
Anyway, "Serve Us" as a command is brilliant. If that was it, it'd support the dream/hallucination starting then.

Turbo_J wrote...
I had pretty good view bob all through London
this time. Not just on the final push. I think it's farther back than
the transport crash.

I did too.

Edit: Wait, why wouldn't they do what before the beam run? The Normandy only picks up you squad because they're injured.


The view bob was there for me, too.  A metaphorical representation of his resolve weakening as he approaches the beam perhaps?

It start when you pick your squad in the FOB.

#32428
Cecilia L

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Cecilia L wrote...

Honestly, I think it's impossible to make out anything from Harby's noises. It's not like Overlord where you can actually hear what he's saying once you know what it is.

EDIT: If I'd had to make an interpretation though, it would be "join us", but I don't think we should read that much into gurgling Reaper sounds.

Though I did have an auditory hallucination yesterday that a marauder said "Shepard". Just one of those standard marauder noises that sounded like it. Posted Image


Oh, okay, I listened at the sound at 55 seconds. The one at 40 DOES sound a bit like "we shall have you".

#32429
Auralius Carolus

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Vaya wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Setzer Daven wrote...

You can hear something being said, but it sounds like nonsense. I can't make sense of it at all.

Reaper Speaks To Shepard


Something something you.

Can't make out anything else.  Its too distorted.


"your friends have left you" ?


This seems to be a sounds used in basic Reaper communication. It can be heard on Earth as well.

#32430
GethPrimeMKII

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I definitely heard "Serve Us". Anyway to crack open game files and know for certain what he's saying?

#32431
Dwailing

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TJBartlemus wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'll admit, it's possible that it IS just gibberish, but it DOES sound like Harbinger is saying SOMETHING.  And I think that what I posted above is a possibility.


What ever it is I'm sure it's a hint towards IT. Seems weird that the Reaper on Rannoch could speak perfectly to Shepard even though it was absolutely destroyed, while Harbinger has problems saying a sentance correctly. Hint that the Reaper on Rannoch was in Shepard's mind?


Maybe.  Remember, people have been speculating that the "hologram" of Harbinger from Arrival might not have been an actually hologram, but really Harbinger speaking in Shepard's mind.

#32432
L0NEWOLF25

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So, did anyone noticed that it looked like Harbinger was looking right at shepard during the Evac scene? I can't be the only one who thought that.

#32433
Andromidius

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Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


OK, when I listened again, it almost sounded like, "We don't have you," or, "We will have you."

I'm pretty sure that it's, "We don't have you."  It sounds a LOT like that to me.


Now i'm focusing, it sounds like "We Shall Have You."

/shudder

I feel dirty.


No-one else hear it?

#32434
Dwailing

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L0NEWOLF25 wrote...

So, did anyone noticed that it looked like Harbinger was looking right at shepard during the Evac scene? I can't be the only one who thought that.


Yeah, it does seem that way, doesn't it? ;)

#32435
HellishFiend

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L0NEWOLF25 wrote...

So, did anyone noticed that it looked like Harbinger was looking right at shepard during the Evac scene? I can't be the only one who thought that.


At certain points he appears to be looking directly at Shep and in others directly at the Normandy. 

#32436
Nightingale

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I remember that someone brought it up earlier that Harbinger letting the Normandy go might have been so that it would have leverage so that Shepard wouldn't want to choose Destroy since EDI would still be alive.


That's the first plausible explaination I've heard.  Kudos to whoever thought that up :)

Though quite why they couldn't do it before or after the beam run...  Still seems...  Unclear...

Goodness me, speculation for everyone indeed.

That would be me :P
Anyway, "Serve Us" as a command is brilliant. If that was it, it'd support the dream/hallucination starting then.

Turbo_J wrote...
I had pretty good view bob all through London
this time. Not just on the final push. I think it's farther back than
the transport crash.

I did too.

Edit: Wait, why wouldn't they do what before the beam run? The Normandy only picks up you squad because they're injured.


The view bob was there for me, too.  A metaphorical representation of his resolve weakening as he approaches the beam perhaps?

It start when you pick your squad in the FOB.

It seems to start in different places every time. Or at least, most of the time.

#32437
HellishFiend

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Andromidius wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


OK, when I listened again, it almost sounded like, "We don't have you," or, "We will have you."

I'm pretty sure that it's, "We don't have you."  It sounds a LOT like that to me.


Now i'm focusing, it sounds like "We Shall Have You."

/shudder

I feel dirty.


No-one else hear it?


Yeah, but like I was saying, it's only audible by cadence and not by enunciation, so it's not very conclusive...

#32438
Dwailing

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Andromidius wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


OK, when I listened again, it almost sounded like, "We don't have you," or, "We will have you."

I'm pretty sure that it's, "We don't have you."  It sounds a LOT like that to me.


Now i'm focusing, it sounds like "We Shall Have You."

/shudder

I feel dirty.


No-one else hear it?


It COULD be "shall".  Honestly, all I'm certain of at this point is that Harbinger says, "We *something* have you."

#32439
BatmanTurian

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TJBartlemus wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

The view bob was there for me, too.  A metaphorical representation of his resolve weakening as he approaches the beam perhaps?


The longer EC is out the more it seems that I was right in my Waking Nightmare Theory. Also currently I'm working on a new version of it to inlclude EC, and/or a possiblility that BioWare could have merged IT/literalist perspectives. (I'll explain this in the new version.) Coming soon...maybe today or tomarro.

Just so you know, I support your theory now somewhat.

#32440
Dwailing

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DrTsoni wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I remember that someone brought it up earlier that Harbinger letting the Normandy go might have been so that it would have leverage so that Shepard wouldn't want to choose Destroy since EDI would still be alive.


That's the first plausible explaination I've heard.  Kudos to whoever thought that up :)

Though quite why they couldn't do it before or after the beam run...  Still seems...  Unclear...

Goodness me, speculation for everyone indeed.

That would be me :P
Anyway, "Serve Us" as a command is brilliant. If that was it, it'd support the dream/hallucination starting then.

Turbo_J wrote...
I had pretty good view bob all through London
this time. Not just on the final push. I think it's farther back than
the transport crash.

I did too.

Edit: Wait, why wouldn't they do what before the beam run? The Normandy only picks up you squad because they're injured.


The view bob was there for me, too.  A metaphorical representation of his resolve weakening as he approaches the beam perhaps?

It start when you pick your squad in the FOB.

It seems to start in different places every time. Or at least, most of the time.


It started there for me, too.  I think that's where it started.  And as a representation of his resolve weakening, that might make sense.  He's just said good bye to everyone important to him.  More than ever, he's aware of what's riding on him winning.  It would make sense that he would be having at least SOME doubts.

#32441
MegumiAzusa

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HellishFiend wrote...

I sent this as a reply to a PM, thought some of you might like to read it:


Reject is certainly an enigma for IT. I personally feel that it's presence among the endings doesnt detract from the core IT beliefs even one bit, but it is difficult to put a finger on what the outcome would be from it. Whatever it may be, I think it is safe to say that it is not as good an outcome as Destroy, because to quote Lieutenant Victus: "Victory, at any cost".

Choosing reject is rejecting victory over the Reapers on the grounds of not wanting to sacrifice his friends. If you've seen my Choose Wisely video, I highlight how sacrifice, and willingness to sacrifice, is a huge theme in the game. Reject is essentially choosing inaction over a costly victory, which would most likely lead to inevitable defeat.

I disagree with rejecting is rejecting victory. It is rejecting the premise the Catalyst offers, Shepard is still fighting, but in her own way like she did since Eden Prime. "I gonna end this war on my terms." It is actually worded pretty similar to when rejecting to save the collector base. "I gonna win this war without sacrificing the soul of our species"

#32442
Arian Dynas

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HellishFiend wrote...

I'm inclined to think that Destroy somehow yields the best outcome of the indoc attempt, mostly because of the breath scene. However rejecting all the choices doesnt give the feel like Shepard has given in to the process either. The Reapers becoming upset, even for an instant, is somewhat interesting though. Even in Arrival, or upon the failure of the Collectors, Harbinger is never visibly or audibly upset....


I STILL take the stance that Reject is Shepard being killed by Harbinger, for reasons outlined in this post;

Arian Dynas wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Oh and I completely forgot the husk eyes, the Reaper cables, the Breath Scene, Shepard's Survival and violent rape of scientific laws that Synthesis, which still remains unexplained, is. And we STILL have no reason to beleive the star child.

Also, just realized, even with the addition of Reject, it still comes down to whether or not we accept or reject the Starchild's thesis. Destroy is only an attractive option if we do not believe we are being told the truth, even Reject requires Shepard to believe what the Starchild is telling him is true and thus refuse to make a choice. Rejection is being noncommittal.

On the contrary, I agree with Megumi. I think it's more Shepard saying "screw your options, we'll find our own way." That doesn't necesarily mean s/he believes Starchild. It just means they don't accept their logic or "solutions." If you think of it another way, Destroy requires you to believe that it actually will destroy the Reapers, so you're still taking his word for it. Whereas with Reject, you simply walk away. You don't have to believe him to do that.


Destroy merely means you remain willing to Destroy the Reapers no matter the cost. Destroy is still not the option he wants you to take.

Refusing to agree with or accept his logic means you believe his thesis, the concept he based his logic on, to be incorrect. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Either that or the other possible interpretation is that Rejection is Shepard showing his hand before he can break free, when he chooses Destroy it's unexpected, when choosing Rejection he is under Harbinger's power, whom then chooses to simply give up on turning him and crushes him while he has the opportunity.

 

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Just beat the game. I feel like they copped out and did not side with either camp in this new ending.


To be fair, BioWare did exactly what they said they were going to do. They did add enough new material supporting both the literalist and the IT folks that the divide is even more pronounced now.


Our real problem is we put all our hopes in the Extended Cut, which did only the thing it was intended to do.

Give us the sort ending they originally wanted on disc.

Seriously, look at the Prima Guide, the endings now match what's in there.

We're right back where we started.


I honestly think we need to step back and take that fine-toothed comb over everything again, simply because of that. While the ending seems to be far more literal now than ever, certain elements remain as well as new possible IT support- Star Child's reaction to rejection, etc.

The hard part is simply avoiding being burnt out on it all.

 

This, this exactly, our real enemy here isn't the Literalists, they're as smug as they ever were, our real enemy is burn out.

It's seeming like as far as IT is concerned, my marketing theory is right, even down to the "Strange but satisfying ending, only they blundered the satisfying part!" bit, the EC wasn't their reveal, it was their band-aid.

#32443
UrgentArchengel

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Well, I'm back. I heard about this Leviathan DLC. Sounds interesting. Something about a rogue Reaper?

#32444
EpyonX3

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Andromidius wrote...

boeloe wrote...

paxxton wrote...

LT123 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Harbinger's Epic One Liner!

So you also heard it?


:o Whoa. When is this? After the squadmates get picked up? 

Yes. Just before the hit.


I threw the file into audacity disabled background channels and sped it up a bit. My best guess is "serve us" or "service" but that one doesn't make any sense. :lol:


Hell, you're right.  He's saying SERVE US!

:o

Seriously, I can hear it clear as rain now.


Sounds like reaper talk to me.

#32445
DarksydeShepard

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UrgentArchengel wrote...

Well, I'm back. I heard about this Leviathan DLC. Sounds interesting. Something about a rogue Reaper?

Actually you take over Saul Karath's ship the Leviathan from KotOR. Pretty nuts

#32446
HellishFiend

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I sent this as a reply to a PM, thought some of you might like to read it:


Reject is certainly an enigma for IT. I personally feel that it's presence among the endings doesnt detract from the core IT beliefs even one bit, but it is difficult to put a finger on what the outcome would be from it. Whatever it may be, I think it is safe to say that it is not as good an outcome as Destroy, because to quote Lieutenant Victus: "Victory, at any cost".

Choosing reject is rejecting victory over the Reapers on the grounds of not wanting to sacrifice his friends. If you've seen my Choose Wisely video, I highlight how sacrifice, and willingness to sacrifice, is a huge theme in the game. Reject is essentially choosing inaction over a costly victory, which would most likely lead to inevitable defeat.

I disagree with rejecting is rejecting victory. It is rejecting the premise the Catalyst offers, Shepard is still fighting, but in her own way like she did since Eden Prime. "I gonna end this war on my terms." It is actually worded pretty similar to when rejecting to save the collector base. "I gonna win this war without sacrificing the soul of our species"


Well, I didnt mean to imply that he was rejecting victory altogether, just that he was rejecting an available means to victory because it would require sacrificing some of his friends and technology. That's pretty different than sacrificing the soul of the species, dont you think? Especially when said friends have explicated that they are willing to sacrifice themselves for a good cause.

#32447
MegumiAzusa

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Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Also, I'm thinking about what Maximized and I came up with earlier. He says that he heard the Anderson grunt in the Carnifex sound. I'm not so sure, but I should probably listen to the Anderson grunt more closely before commenting on whether it IS there or not. However, one thing I AM certain of, is that part of the echo of the Carnifex during the final scene in the Catalyst chamber DOES play when you alt-tab out of the game. Is it the Anderson grunt? I'm not sure if I hear a grunt, but I do KNOW that I hear part of the Carnifex echo played when you alt-tab, and that's enough for me to say something is up. I think, though I'm not certain, that the echo is played underneath the drums in the scene. If someone else could check this out and confirm it (Megumi or lex0r? Would either of you be willing to check?), I would be a very happy Turian. ;)

For the technical side: If there is echo you always hear it, even when alt tab, because of the way it was made. It grabs a set stream and replays it after a delay, that is why you hear it when alt tab. When using alt tab the source stream is set inactive and doesn't update the echo, because of that you only hear the echo up to where it was updated for the last time.


Yeah, I do get that, I think.  But what I'm saying is why would they have part of the echo from the gunshots of the Carnifex on what would seem to be a CONSTANT loop?

I don't follow right now? If you mean the gunshots when choosing destroy they are actually 3 different files for the different stages so they could sound different when echoing, but as I said right now I've no idea what you are talking about exactly.

#32448
Andromidius

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EpyonX3 wrote...

Sounds like reaper talk to me.


Well it is a Reaper talking ;)

It is garbled still.  But I can definately hear it, and if he's not saying something meaningful why the sudden focus on him and the sounds?

#32449
comrade gando

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holy smokes harbinger DOES look at them. after shepard drops off LI tali in my case, he looks over and harbinger and harbinger shifts to look like RIGHT at them.. didn't even notice. ok so that explains that at least.

http://www.youtube.c...8fItbr0#t=1m21s

Modifié par comrade gando, 28 juin 2012 - 02:48 .


#32450
ZerebusPrime

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Vaya wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Setzer Daven wrote...

You can hear something being said, but it sounds like nonsense. I can't make sense of it at all.

Reaper Speaks To Shepard


Something something you.

Can't make out anything else.  Its too distorted.


"your friends have left you" ?


Sounds like....

"I know this hurts you" ?