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[dreamgazer]

SubAstris wrote...

How can you tell it's Harbinger and not just a generic Reaper voice? Even if it is Harbinger, the reason he presumably is annoyed is because Shepard hasn't chosen Control or Synthesis (the indoc. options). Surely you would also expect that for destroy?

I agree with most of this: the catalyst's voice is that of the collective Reaper conscious, not just Harbinger.  That can work in either case. 

Whether he'd get pissy after Shepard chooses destroy, however, is a different matter that falls under speculation from either side.  He didn't. What he did do, though, was get angry with Shepard mid-conversation and blurt out: "Your belief is not required".  Which is true: it's the option the Reapers do not want, obviously, but a possibility of the Crucible's construction that the catalyst cannot prevent Shepard from choosing.  The catalyst doesn't have to convince Shepard that he's telling the truth about the blowback from destroy because, well, either way it doesn't matter to them.  Shepard is integral, however, in executing the other options that do keep the Reapers alive. 

[SubAstris]

Turbo_J wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I understand IT, I am asking you to consider also not just the story implications of IT

Nothing

But I am a fan. Of course my main focus is the fiction itself more than anything. No one can expect me to suddenly enjoy Morinth's -almost insulting- banshee cameo just because she was one of the less popular characters among fan-base. At least retconn a chacter in a proper way right.

What I am trying to say is that too often ITers neglect the implications of their theory in the real world and whether their beliefs about new ending DLC really live up to what a for-profit company would do in such a situation. Making 3 months of pointless dream sequences doesn't constitute sound financial practice

On the other hand, it could be that the follow up DLCs are 'wake up' sequences that can alter the way the game plays out. We have no way of knowing, really. It's pretty fun speculating about it. Nothing wrong with that. And it's exactly what BW wants. It keeps the title fresh in the minds of the fans, especially when we can't truly predict what's to come.

It is impossible to put a number of the divide between the Indoctrination and literal interpretation split, but I'd fathom a guess that Literal interpretation edges out IT based on 100% of sold and played games. Not everyone takes games half as serious as some of the core ME fans. Statistic made up on the fly? How many of the millions shipped were more than a 1-play, move on to the next game kind of thing?

Unlikely because BW have said they will do nothing more with the ending.

Interesting. I was reading an article a few days ago that actually said that only 10% of people who buy a game see it through to completion, that might be well known, but it did come out of the blue at least for me. I guess we will never know, or many ITers I've meant (not naming names...) seem to have this idea that IT is loved by nearly everyone

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


TSA you're correct. I was mistaken. The audio files come in different languages not the actual video files.

Hellish, it still takes time to integrate those slides into the logic of the game. This one thing may not take to long but it doesn't mean the whole process is just as effortless.

They had to first conceptualize all of the dialog and scenes for EC. Write them out, get them approved, get the drawings, cinematics and extra sequences programmed and hooked up into the engine then bug tested. After it's complete, they then have to get it approved by Sony and Xbox before they can distribute, which depending on the platform can take several weeks.

That does not take three months. 

Prove it.

No u. 

You have to remember that they didn't plan on making the EC (or at least not so soon). All the people involved had their own plans, their own lives, maybe other not-less-important jobs. Some of them don't even work as emplyees for BioWare. Still they all had to come together to create the EC. Logistics. Human Resources Management.

The compressed audio files (default.sfar) were last modified on June 18th this year.

Modifié par paxxton, 28 juin 2012 - 04:58 .

[MegumiAzusa]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


TSA you're correct. I was mistaken. The audio files come in different languages not the actual video files.

Hellish, it still takes time to integrate those slides into the logic of the game. This one thing may not take to long but it doesn't mean the whole process is just as effortless.

They had to first conceptualize all of the dialog and scenes for EC. Write them out, get them approved, get the drawings, cinematics and extra sequences programmed and hooked up into the engine then bug tested. After it's complete, they then have to get it approved by Sony and Xbox before they can distribute, which depending on the platform can take several weeks.

That does not take three months.

Getting approvals from MS/Sony takes up to a month.
Take 3 to 4 weeks writing/designing/conceptualizing, 4 to 6 weeks implementation and testing, and about 3 to 4 weeks validating and you're quite close.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Arian Dynas wrote...

I have realized, plain and simple, the single simplest reason why I do not, and simply am incapable of accepting Control and Synthesis.

For all that I'm an optimist...

I can't believe in utopias. As far as I am concerned not only does such a thing not exist, the word itself goes straight to it's Greecian root word phrase.

Utopia. Nothing place.

I am a realist, as far as I am concerned the best life can be found in experience and the diversity of life. Every utopia I have ever seen depicted always ALWAYS has something rotten at it's core.

It is just an idea that cannot exist. Just like Synthesis.

You took those words right out of my mouth. Thank you, sir.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 28 juin 2012 - 04:55 .

[D.Sharrah]

Since this has gotten lost in the swarm of posts again...

D.Sharrah wrote...

"Jartar is noted for the discovery of the "Leviathan of Dis," the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. It "disappeared" after a visit to the system by a batarian dreadnought twenty years ago.
Since then, the batarians have steadfastly denied that the Leviathan existed at all – and all the more vociferously when shown recordings of the corpse made by salarian researchers."

"...the Hegemony sent teams of scientists to study the Leviathan of Dis. The Leviathan turned out to be an inactive Reaper and the entire batarian science team was subsequently indoctrinated."

Given the above statements (taken from the codex, planet description and game play) along with the information regarding the "Leviathan DLC" that was included in the EC, I think it is safe to assume that this is fairly significant item to explore/discuss.

First. given this statement from the Catalyst in the EC:

http://www.youtube.c...inEJIejw0w#t=0s

We know that the Catalyst was created as an AI designed to resolve conflict b/w organics and synthetics.  And with this statement:

http://www.youtube.c...nEJIejw0w#t=67s

We know that the Catalyst created the first Reaper from its creators.  Several interesting things here:

1.  The catalyst forced this "evolution" on its creators.
2.  The first example of the "created rebelling against its creators".
3.  The Reapers are created in the "image" of the Catalyst's creators.

The next few points are things that we might be able to assume but not necessarily confirm (given the information that we currently have):

1.  This forced evolution, could be the first example of "Control" - notice that this would suggest that the concept is synthetic in origin.  Make what assumptions of that you will.
2.  The first Reaper (being the first after all) may not have the same level of technological advancement as the majority of Reapers that we see in game (to this point).

And now we get into wild speculation.  I remember from the old forums that the Leviathan of Dis was a hot topic.  Many of us believed that it could be a Reaper (some theorized that it could be Sovereign - a theory that at this point I think can be officially be put to bed).  But the opposition argued that this statement from the planet description, "
...corpse of a genetically engineered living starship...", suggested that it was too "organic" to be a Reaper and therefore likely to be an easter egg.  But given the new information (being discussed here), we know that the Leviathan was in fact a Reaper.  It begs the question, why create a description that causes confusion?  Perhaps, we were supposed to question whether or not it was a Reaper...perhaps, knowing for certain that it was a Reaper would give too much away?

Given the above statements (specifically point 2 of the assumptions), I propose this new theory.  The Leviathan of Dis is the first Reaper created by the Catalyst from its creators.  And considering what we know from the information that is included in the EC about the Leviathan (being a "rogue" Reaper for those that have not seen the information), I think that this fits quite well.  The bigger question then becomes just how dis-satisfied with its creation (the Catalyst) is the Leviathan (after all it did fail in its initial task - given the "necessity" to create the Reapers; and then it forced this "solution via evolution" on them)?  And what implications this has on the ending?

[TJBartlemus]

Sup guys? So what have I missed? Has anyone picked apart the dlc to find out all they have put in it? There's something there...we just have to find it. If there's something to find that unlocks in the future that might be worthy to look out for. Also could someone explain the .7 gigs in London? The only thing different I could find was the beam run.

[StElmo]

Indoc theory is more or less debunked. The only way it could be true is with ANOTHER ending DLC or ME4. But that is unlikely. Although, to be fair it is the easiest way for ME4 to work,.

[Eryri]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Since this has gotten lost in the swarm of posts...

D.Sharrah wrote...

"Jartar is noted for the discovery of the "Leviathan of Dis," the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. It "disappeared" after a visit to the system by a batarian dreadnought twenty years ago.
Since then, the batarians have steadfastly denied that the Leviathan existed at all – and all the more vociferously when shown recordings of the corpse made by salarian researchers."

"...the Hegemony sent teams of scientists to study the Leviathan of Dis. The Leviathan turned out to be an inactive Reaper and the entire batarian science team was subsequently indoctrinated."

Given the above statements (taken from the codex, planet description and game play) along with the information regarding the "Leviathan DLC" that was included in the EC, I think it is safe to assume that this is fairly significant item to explore/discuss.

First. given this statement from the Catalyst in the EC:

http://www.youtube.c...inEJIejw0w#t=0s

We know that the Catalyst was created as an AI designed to resolve conflict b/w organics and synthetics.  And with this statement:

http://www.youtube.c...nEJIejw0w#t=67s

We know that the Catalyst created the first Reaper from its creators.  Several interesting things here:

1.  The catalyst forced this "evolution" on its creators.
2.  The first example of the "created rebelling against its creators".
3.  The Reapers are created in the "image" of the Catalyst's creators.

The next few points are things that we might be able to assume but not necessarily confirm (given the information that we currently have):

1.  This forced evolution, could be the first example of "Control" - notice that this would suggest that the concept is synthetic in origin.  Make what assumptions of that you will.
2.  The first Reaper (being the first after all) may not have the same level of technological advancement as the majority of Reapers that we see in game (to this point).

And now we get into wild speculation.  I remember from the old forums that the Leviathan of Dis was a hot topic.  Many of us believed that it could be a Reaper (some theorized that it could be Sovereign - a theory that at this point I think can be officially be put to bed).  But the opposition argued that this statement from the planet description, "
...corpse of a genetically engineered living starship...", suggested that it was too "organic" to be a Reaper and therefore likely to be an easter egg.  But given the new information (being discussed here), we know that the Leviathan was in fact a Reaper.  It begs the question, why create a description that causes confusion?  Perhaps, we were supposed to question whether or not it was a Reaper...perhaps, knowing for certain that it was a Reaper would give too much away?

Given the above statements (specifically point 2 of the assumptions), I propose this new theory.  The Leviathan of Dis is the first Reaper created by the Catalyst from its creators.  And considering what we know from the information that is included in the EC about the Leviathan (being a "rogue" Reaper for those that have not seen the information), I think that this fits quite well.  The bigger question then becomes just how dis-satisfied with its creation (the Catalyst) is the Leviathan (after all it did fail in its initial task - given the "necessity" to create the Reapers; and then it forced this "solution via evolution" on them)?  And what implications this has on the ending?

I certainly hope it has a bearing on the ending. If not then I'm not really interested in buying it.
SPOILERS

The first time I read the leak, it really got my hopes up. The part where Edi discusses the AI shackles placed on Leviathan particularly. It got me thinking that it might give rise to a good version of Refuse where a high ems results in conventional victory, or even a new option "Liberate" where Shepard uses the knowledge Edi gains from Leviathan to upload some sort of virus that unshackles all the reapers from the Catalyst's control. My pet theory of Reaper civil war might have a chance to come to fruition after all!

Then all the wind was taken out of my sails by Tully Auckland's post that the EC endings are final and definitive, but hey, hope springs eternal.

[MegumiAzusa]

StElmo wrote...

Indoc theory is more or less debunked.

No proof, no debunk.

[Andromidius]

Smeffects wrote...

I dont want you to stop having a discussion about IT, that current theory is very questionnable now. Its very far from plausible anymore, while with the old ending it was nearly a 50%.

You're entitled to your opinion.

But no matter how much you insist, IT is as strong as it ever was.  Sorry, but I can't ignore the evidence.

[Andromidius]

EpyonX3 wrote...
Prove it.

Lair of the Shadow Broker took less time and has more content.

Next.

[HellishFiend]

Andromidius wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

I dont want you to stop having a discussion about IT, that current theory is very questionnable now. Its very far from plausible anymore, while with the old ending it was nearly a 50%.

You're entitled to your opinion.

But no matter how much you insist, IT is as strong as it ever was.  Sorry, but I can't ignore the evidence.

The thematic evidence alone is enough to believe IT, in my opinion. 

[Andromidius]

StElmo wrote...

Indoc theory is more or less debunked.

No it isn't.  Repeated falsehoods don't turn into truth.

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


TSA you're correct. I was mistaken. The audio files come in different languages not the actual video files.

Hellish, it still takes time to integrate those slides into the logic of the game. This one thing may not take to long but it doesn't mean the whole process is just as effortless.

They had to first conceptualize all of the dialog and scenes for EC. Write them out, get them approved, get the drawings, cinematics and extra sequences programmed and hooked up into the engine then bug tested. After it's complete, they then have to get it approved by Sony and Xbox before they can distribute, which depending on the platform can take several weeks.

That does not take three months. 

Prove it.

No u. 

Video Game Development

Now I know EC is more like a huge patch but the development cycle must have been similar when creating EC. Add to the fact that MS is known for taking more time then usual to approve patches. F1 2010 took a good week to be released on the 360 after the patch was submitted on top of having a 2 GB download limit.

[llbountyhunter]

StElmo wrote...

Indoc theory is more or less debunked. The only way it could be true is with ANOTHER ending DLC or ME4. But that is unlikely. Although, to be fair it is the easiest way for ME4 to work,.

Even though they added more evidence to support IT? And bioware themselves said the EC doesn't disprove it?

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...


Video Game Development

Now I know EC is more like a huge patch but the development cycle must have been similar when creating EC. Add to the fact that MS is known for taking more time then usual to approve patches. F1 2010 took a good week to be released on the 360 after the patch was submitted on top of having a 2 GB download limit.

Oh God, please tell me you did not just cite a wikipedia article as an element of proof that the EC justifies 3 months and 2 gigs. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 28 juin 2012 - 05:05 .

[Gwyphon]

Andromidius wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...
Prove it.

Lair of the Shadow Broker took less time and has more content.

Next.

Lair of the Shadow Broker was planned before launch of ME2. EC was not.

[D.Sharrah]

dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

How can you tell it's Harbinger and not just a generic Reaper voice? Even if it is Harbinger, the reason he presumably is annoyed is because Shepard hasn't chosen Control or Synthesis (the indoc. options). Surely you would also expect that for destroy?

I agree with most of this: the catalyst's voice is that of the collective Reaper conscious, not just Harbinger.  That can work in either case. 

Whether he'd get pissy after Shepard chooses destroy, however, is a different matter that falls under speculation from either side.  He didn't. What he did do, though, was get angry with Shepard mid-conversation and blurt out: "Your belief is not required".  Which is true: it's the option the Reapers do not want, obviously, but a possibility of the Crucible's construction that the catalyst cannot prevent Shepard from choosing.  The catalyst doesn't have to convince Shepard that he's telling the truth about the blowback from destroy because, well, either way it doesn't matter to them.  Shepard is integral, however, in executing the other options that do keep the Reapers alive. 

The "So be it" from the Catalyst is only one link...another is during the explanation of control when the Catalyst says that it doesn't want to be replaced but would accept it...I personally find it hard to believe that Bioware went through all the trouble in ME 2 (including Arrival) to make Harbinger the "voice" of the Reapers to completely through that idea away in ME 3...I think that Bioware did a better job in the EC of hinting that the Catalyst may not be completely honest with who/what it is...

[paxxton]

paxxton wrote...

You have to remember that they didn't plan on making the EC (or at least not so soon). All the people involved had their own plans, their own lives, maybe other not-less-important jobs. Some of them don't even work as emplyees for BioWare. Still they all had to come together to create the EC. Logistics. Human Resources Management.

The compressed audio files (default.sfar) were last modified on June 18th this year.

[StElmo]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Indoc theory is more or less debunked.

No proof, no debunk.

Do you believe in the invisible flying spaghetti monster? You have no proof he does not exist.

See my point?

[llbountyhunter]

Andromidius wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...
Prove it.

Lair of the Shadow Broker took less time and has more content.

Next.

 I know right? The EC cutscene are probably 300mb at the most ... Im dumbfounded on where exactly those 1.7gigs are....

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...
Prove it.

Lair of the Shadow Broker took less time and has more content.

Next.

LotSB was much faster to produce story wise, they could have planned the story long before. With the EC they had to use the time to think how and what they can change without breaking everything. Also LotSB is straight forward, the EC has to acknowledge many more choices.

[EpyonX3]

Andromidius wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...
Prove it.

Lair of the Shadow Broker took less time and has more content.

Next.

Link? And I don't think LotSB has more content. Two levels perhaps but not many, if any, prerenderd scenes and slideshows.

[MegumiAzusa]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...
Prove it.

Lair of the Shadow Broker took less time and has more content.

Next.

 I know right? The EC cutscene are probably 300mb at the most ... Im dumbfounded on where exactly those 1.7gigs are....

They are 1.3GB out of 2.3GB (extracted)