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[legaldinho]

paxxton wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

by far my favorite video explaining indoctrination theory is right here, granted its for the old endings but a majority of the things it covers are still in the EC, and the maker does a fine job of linking to ideas together. 
ive never noticed the guns youre referring to, ill have to check those out. its obvious that the devs didnt want to cover up all the holes, to leave it open for speculation. i can only hope that they plan for more after ending dlc, but i doubt it

Yes, so far this is THE BEST video on indoctrination I've seen.

I really discovered IT through the OLD version of that video, which has been taken down. Minimalist, and much better. The editing really drove home the point, using pretty much only the codex entry. When it goes "with superstitious awe!" and you get to the godchild, well, that drove the point home.

[Salient Archer]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...
 Although it never announces itself  as "I am Harbinger" it is "we are Harbinger" it's more like saying "we are the heralds of the coming apocalypse" opposed to an actual title.

As for the data-pad that Joker hands Shepard at the end of ME2 I find that to be circumstantial evidence at best; Im sure that data-pad contained more information on than just a picture of Harby and I also doubt it had any names relating to any of the Reapers (considering organics name them) and I think it's safe to assume it also contained images about all the other Reaper types too, remember the ending of ME2 clearly shows several distinctly different Reaper designs which would make Harbinger’s unique appearance a moot point, with Harbinger’s actual appearance only being confirmed for Shepard during Arrival; which in my Shepard’s case didn’t even happen because he spoke to the Collector Puppet instead. 
Essentially it’s like one of us being handed an iPad with 20+ images of different people and trying to pick out which one is SubAstris. From the evidence I’d assume that SubAstris is a short fat man with a respiratory problem but for all I know SubAstris is really a 6’3” Scandinavian beauty queen olympic gold medalist.

Anyway, Having said all this; maybe they dropped the unique appearance of the other Reapers so n00bs would be able to spot Harbinger instantly and give him a more imposing presence for a thematic perspective, reality defying plot-holes be damned.

Well, the way I take it is that each Reaper is composed of- at least- millions of minds at work, contributing to the whole. Harbinger speaks as we, because even though it likely has a sovereign entity at the helm, it is still a plurality of beings. But, regardless, it refers to itself as "The Harbinger" or "Harbinger" multiple times when confronting Shepard is possessed Collectors, so it's only natural that the name stuck.

And as to the last part, it is possible although regretable- I hate seeing things dumbed down. I don't care what it is, a high standard is a good standard. Stupidity or ignorance doesn't have to be a chronic condition; raise the bar, raise the quality and let them learn.

I did consider the whole "we" aspect much in the way you described; essentially it’s the same as when Legion refers to itself as "we" indicating that each Reaper is a collective intelligence opposed to mono-consciousness. But his retorts that mention his own name also translate well with the meaning of the word harbinger, possibly this was just clever writing to carry the point both ways. It’s interesting that it parallels with how the StarBrat refers to the Reapers as "we" also, meaning they're all speaking as one which is now clarified in the EC that the Reapers operate as a single intelligence which once again diminishes Harbinger as being special but which then raises the issue of why Harbinger (and Sovereign) seem to act as individual entities with their own capacity of thought and dare I even say personalities; I mean for all intensive purposes Harbinger trolls Shepard throughout ME2; which according to the EC means that the Catalyst was essentially trolling Shepard that whole time, but yet non of that characteristic is ever present in that final conversation with him, and now with this rumor of the Leviathan DLC it’s starting to sound more and more that every word the StarBrat spits out at you is total bullsh*t as none of it adds up with the tone, methods, attitudes and motives that we’ve seen previously from the Reapers.

I really hope that none of this was just caused by trying to make Mass Effect appeal to the mentally diluted masses, because that would be a damn shame; I’m really banking of BioWare to pull out an ace.

[paxxton]

There's no Joker flashback in the EC.

[Xavendithas]

Derp88 wrote...

Let's forget for a moment about the additional scenes that Shepard actually made it to the Citadel. My focus is on Shepard's conversation with the Catalyst.

Before the EC, Shepard seemed to be in a daze, where he would seem very passive, very willing to just accept the Catalyst's explanations without question. This was very unlike Shepard, and gave merit to the IT, because Shepard seemingly blindly followed the Catalyst's doctrine, or "solutions". Hence it could be argued that Shepard was indoctrinated.

However, post-EC, Shepard has regained some of his fighting spirit. He now no longer just accepts the Catalyst at face-value. He wants further explanations as to the implementation of Control and Synthesis, and the consequenses of Destroy. Hell, he can even flat-out refuse the Catalyst now if he wants.

So my point is, is Shepard still being indoctrinated if he has the ability to question the Catalyst's "solutions"? I mean, Shepard even asks why the Catalyst is offering these new choices. To be indoctrinated, is to follow a set of beliefs (or a doctrine, if you will) without question. But Shepard is now questioning the Catalyst.

Shepard even says "Let's get this over with" before deciding. Personally, this further empasises the difficult choice Shepard has to make, but because of the sacrifice and repercussions of each. It's a choice he has to make (well, not have to, as he can always refuse ), even though he mkaes it clear he doesn't want to make that decision.

I thought the IT would have been a great way for Bioware to pull an epic twist. Now, after seeing the EC, I don't mind the endings as they are. Enough was shown for me personally to appreciate how hard that decision was for Shepard to make, and Bioware did a pretty good job in showing that Shepard's sacrifice was not in vain.

Would I have preferred the IT? Yes, most likely.
Is it now my head canon? No. Not for me.

I am interested to hear your thoughts on this

I have only picked destroy in the new EC content, and I haven't watched videos on the other endings because I plan to see them one day with my other shelved characters. I don't know what differences there are in the dialogue for different versions of Shepard.

That said, one of the most important things I took away from my Shepard's conversation with the Catalyst was that Shepard has to willingly accept the Catalysts logic. Not unlike TIM saying that he "needs you to believe."

Is it possible that it is still an indoctrination attempt even though he seems to be more aware and doesn't just blindly accept Starchilds logic? Absolutely, I say. There is enough evidence in the indcotrination of Saren/TIM/Benezia that it seems like a no-brainer to me.

[BleedingUranium]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Ok, I’m going to try and bring this up again, but every time I make a point since EC it seems to be ignored or glossed over... so fingers crossed I get my point across this time or at least get some constructive answers. Here we go...

My canon Shepard never met Harbinger and never spoke to him (as Harbinger) in Arrival, rather my Shepard spoke to Harby while he was posing as the collector general.

[as shown in the image below]



Now this raises an issue: If my Shepard never saw Harbinger in his true form how would anyone know what Harbinger looks like? No one ever had any face-to-face contact with him, not even Shepard in this case. So even when Shepard filled his reports how would he be able to describe something that he had never seen? It would be like a blind man trying to describe colour.

I should also point out that during this conversation in Arrival, Harbinger never announces what his name is regardless of what form he takes. Obviously a Reaper wouldn’t name itself considering they have no need for names, this is something we assign to them but regardless, Harbinger is clearly the name Shepard had assigned to this unique Reaper antagonist and would have been the name he gave it when presenting this information to the Alliance, but yet without seeing Harbingers image how would he be able to describe it’s defining characteristics? As far as my Shepard knew it just looked like Sovereign.

Anyway, skip forward to ME3 just before the beam charge and not only does my Shepard show fear at the mention of Harbinger’s name but Anderson also knew exactly which one was Harbinger and that somehow this information was relevant to Shepard (because a regular Reaper wouldn’t be terrifying enough apparently) So somehow without either or them (or anyone for that matter) having any idea what made Harbinger cosmetically different to all the other Reaper types both men and the entire Alliance knew exactly who Harbinger was... So why add more emphasis to Harbinger? any sovereign class reaper would have sufficed, why did Harbinger personally feel the need to be the one to confront Shepard in this final confrontation if they are just a collective intelligence after all?

This is why http://i3.kym-cdn.co...1/harbinger.jpg
On a more serious note, I think it's just a form of retcon or oversight and a minor one IMO. What does get to me though is the fact that after doing nothing since ME2 Harbinger appears, hits everyone perfectly but misses Shepard a lot, and doesn't say anything. Even though his VA did some random Batarian dude. RAAAAAAAHHHHHH 

Hi Banshee

I say it's just an oversight as a result of being able to play Arrival before the suicide mission. Bioware made it very clear Arrival is intended to be played as the very last thing you do in ME2, so it's story is written assuming that. Since you can choose to do it when you're not supposed to they changed it to the Collector before the end to avoid spoilers.

It's not to different from the hilarious scenario of picking Reject with low EMS and Destroy

[Arian Dynas]

Avacayos no longer believes? The man who brought me here has lost hope?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[jgibson14352]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...
 Although it never announces itself  as "I am Harbinger" it is "we are Harbinger" it's more like saying "we are the heralds of the coming apocalypse" opposed to an actual title.

As for the data-pad that Joker hands Shepard at the end of ME2 I find that to be circumstantial evidence at best; Im sure that data-pad contained more information on than just a picture of Harby and I also doubt it had any names relating to any of the Reapers (considering organics name them) and I think it's safe to assume it also contained images about all the other Reaper types too, remember the ending of ME2 clearly shows several distinctly different Reaper designs which would make Harbinger’s unique appearance a moot point, with Harbinger’s actual appearance only being confirmed for Shepard during Arrival; which in my Shepard’s case didn’t even happen because he spoke to the Collector Puppet instead. 
Essentially it’s like one of us being handed an iPad with 20+ images of different people and trying to pick out which one is SubAstris. From the evidence I’d assume that SubAstris is a short fat man with a respiratory problem but for all I know SubAstris is really a 6’3” Scandinavian beauty queen olympic gold medalist.

Anyway, Having said all this; maybe they dropped the unique appearance of the other Reapers so n00bs would be able to spot Harbinger instantly and give him a more imposing presence for a thematic perspective, reality defying plot-holes be damned.

Well, the way I take it is that each Reaper is composed of- at least- millions of minds at work, contributing to the whole. Harbinger speaks as we, because even though it likely has a sovereign entity at the helm, it is still a plurality of beings. But, regardless, it refers to itself as "The Harbinger" or "Harbinger" multiple times when confronting Shepard is possessed Collectors, so it's only natural that the name stuck.

And as to the last part, it is possible although regretable- I hate seeing things dumbed down. I don't care what it is, a high standard is a good standard. Stupidity or ignorance doesn't have to be a chronic condition; raise the bar, raise the quality and let them learn.

another question to all this, Legion very specifically states that the runtimes on the old machine (sovereign) referred to themselves as "Nazara" ive always thought that this name is the name of whatever species the ship is made of, for instance thered be reapers who referred to themselves as human, or prothean. but when the reaper talks to shepard on Rannoch, he refers to harbinger literally as harbinger. for shepards benfit? maybe, i dont know, its just another thing that adds to the mystery

[Arian Dynas]

To put the whole whether or not you saw Harbinger thing to bed, Salient, it was also possible to never meet Wrex or Garrus in ME1, and they didn't write separate scenes for that, to my knowledge.

[Xavendithas]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Avacayos no longer believes? The man who brought me here has lost hope?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Yeah, that caught me off guard as well. Oh well, his loss.

[paxxton]

legaldinho wrote...

paxxton wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

by far my favorite video explaining indoctrination theory is right here, granted its for the old endings but a majority of the things it covers are still in the EC, and the maker does a fine job of linking to ideas together. 
ive never noticed the guns youre referring to, ill have to check those out. its obvious that the devs didnt want to cover up all the holes, to leave it open for speculation. i can only hope that they plan for more after ending dlc, but i doubt it

Yes, so far this is THE BEST video on indoctrination I've seen.

I really discovered IT through the OLD version of that video, which has been taken down. Minimalist, and much better. The editing really drove home the point, using pretty much only the codex entry. When it goes "with superstitious awe!" and you get to the godchild, well, that drove the point home.

I also watched the old version first and liked it better but the new one is ok too.

[munnellyladt]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Avacayos no longer believes? The man who brought me here has lost hope?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

What?!!!
Are you serious?!!!
where did you find this out?!!!

[masster blaster]

Have you seen THE BIG O it's kind of like what Happened in ME3's endings and you know what's funny Resident Evil was thought to be real but in the final movie it was a an illusion. And if you don't believe me look up the trailer.

[HellishFiend]

masster blaster wrote...

Have you seen THE BIG O it's kind of like what Happened in ME3's endings and you know what's funny Resident Evil was thought to be real but in the final movie it was a an illusion. And if you don't believe me look up the trailer.

BIG O! BIG O BIG O BIG O!!!

Could never stand that intro music... <_<

[plfranke]

Guys I have a couple of thoughts. First the catalyst says that the Reapers share the knowledge of the species they harvest, yet they didn't know that the crucible plans survived. How is that? Second I heard something new the last few times listening to Harbinger... Cerberus

[Salient Archer]

BleedingUranium wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Ok, I’m going to try and bring this up again, but every time I make a point since EC it seems to be ignored or glossed over... so fingers crossed I get my point across this time or at least get some constructive answers. Here we go...

My canon Shepard never met Harbinger and never spoke to him (as Harbinger) in Arrival, rather my Shepard spoke to Harby while he was posing as the collector general.

[as shown in the image below]



Now this raises an issue: If my Shepard never saw Harbinger in his true form how would anyone know what Harbinger looks like? No one ever had any face-to-face contact with him, not even Shepard in this case. So even when Shepard filled his reports how would he be able to describe something that he had never seen? It would be like a blind man trying to describe colour.

I should also point out that during this conversation in Arrival, Harbinger never announces what his name is regardless of what form he takes. Obviously a Reaper wouldn’t name itself considering they have no need for names, this is something we assign to them but regardless, Harbinger is clearly the name Shepard had assigned to this unique Reaper antagonist and would have been the name he gave it when presenting this information to the Alliance, but yet without seeing Harbingers image how would he be able to describe it’s defining characteristics? As far as my Shepard knew it just looked like Sovereign.

Anyway, skip forward to ME3 just before the beam charge and not only does my Shepard show fear at the mention of Harbinger’s name but Anderson also knew exactly which one was Harbinger and that somehow this information was relevant to Shepard (because a regular Reaper wouldn’t be terrifying enough apparently) So somehow without either or them (or anyone for that matter) having any idea what made Harbinger cosmetically different to all the other Reaper types both men and the entire Alliance knew exactly who Harbinger was... So why add more emphasis to Harbinger? any sovereign class reaper would have sufficed, why did Harbinger personally feel the need to be the one to confront Shepard in this final confrontation if they are just a collective intelligence after all?

This is why http://i3.kym-cdn.co...1/harbinger.jpg
On a more serious note, I think it's just a form of retcon or oversight and a minor one IMO. What does get to me though is the fact that after doing nothing since ME2 Harbinger appears, hits everyone perfectly but misses Shepard a lot, and doesn't say anything. Even though his VA did some random Batarian dude. RAAAAAAAHHHHHH 

Hi Banshee

I say it's just an oversight as a result of being able to play Arrival before the suicide mission. Bioware made it very clear Arrival is intended to be played as the very last thing you do in ME2, so it's story is written assuming that. Since you can choose to do it when you're not supposed to they changed it to the Collector before the end to avoid spoilers.

It's not to different from the hilarious scenario of picking Reject with low EMS and Destroy

I agree it might be an oversight or rather deliberation from a writing perspective. I guess I should get to the short end of what I'm really trying to get to [now that I have people talking about it].

Basically despite not having any lines of dialogue or real significance and apparently just being reduced to just 'another' Reaper thanks to the StarChild’s BS speech about “Collective intelligence, blah, blah, Reaper’s are puppets, blah, blah” Harbinger still carries weight, but why? Why save him for just a cameo at the end? Because Harbinger’s story isn’t (or shouldn’t be) finished yet, there’s noway I believe for one second that Harbinger isn’t special, he spent all of ME2 trolling Shepard every step of the way and showed that he was significant from other Reapers and now with the Leviathan of Dis being a possibility the idea of Reapers just being controlled by a ghost child reeks of utter BS in my opinion.


PS. What happens in 'Reject' when you have low EMS? My EMS is always 9,000+ no matter what I do so I haven't had the chance to see what happens.

[Auralius Carolus]

Salient Archer wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...
 Although it never announces itself  as "I am Harbinger" it is "we are Harbinger" it's more like saying "we are the heralds of the coming apocalypse" opposed to an actual title.

As for the data-pad that Joker hands Shepard at the end of ME2 I find that to be circumstantial evidence at best; Im sure that data-pad contained more information on than just a picture of Harby and I also doubt it had any names relating to any of the Reapers (considering organics name them) and I think it's safe to assume it also contained images about all the other Reaper types too, remember the ending of ME2 clearly shows several distinctly different Reaper designs which would make Harbinger’s unique appearance a moot point, with Harbinger’s actual appearance only being confirmed for Shepard during Arrival; which in my Shepard’s case didn’t even happen because he spoke to the Collector Puppet instead. 
Essentially it’s like one of us being handed an iPad with 20+ images of different people and trying to pick out which one is SubAstris. From the evidence I’d assume that SubAstris is a short fat man with a respiratory problem but for all I know SubAstris is really a 6’3” Scandinavian beauty queen olympic gold medalist.

Anyway, Having said all this; maybe they dropped the unique appearance of the other Reapers so n00bs would be able to spot Harbinger instantly and give him a more imposing presence for a thematic perspective, reality defying plot-holes be damned.

Well, the way I take it is that each Reaper is composed of- at least- millions of minds at work, contributing to the whole. Harbinger speaks as we, because even though it likely has a sovereign entity at the helm, it is still a plurality of beings. But, regardless, it refers to itself as "The Harbinger" or "Harbinger" multiple times when confronting Shepard is possessed Collectors, so it's only natural that the name stuck.

And as to the last part, it is possible although regretable- I hate seeing things dumbed down. I don't care what it is, a high standard is a good standard. Stupidity or ignorance doesn't have to be a chronic condition; raise the bar, raise the quality and let them learn.

I did consider the whole "we" aspect much in the way you described; essentially it’s the same as when Legion refers to itself as "we" indicating that each Reaper is a collective intelligence opposed to mono-consciousness. But his retorts that mention his own name also translate well with the meaning of the word harbinger, possibly this was just clever writing to carry the point both ways. It’s interesting that it parallels with how the StarBrat refers to the Reapers as "we" also, meaning they're all speaking as one which is now clarified in the EC that the Reapers operate as a single intelligence which once again diminishes Harbinger as being special but which then raises the issue of why Harbinger (and Sovereign) seem to act as individual entities with their own capacity of thought and dare I even say personalities; I mean for all intensive purposes Harbinger trolls Shepard throughout ME2; which according to the EC means that the Catalyst was essentially trolling Shepard that whole time, but yet non of that characteristic is ever present in that final conversation with him, and now with this rumor of the Leviathan DLC it’s starting to sound more and more that every word the StarBrat spits out at you is total bullsh*t as none of it adds up with the tone, methods, attitudes and motives that we’ve seen previously from the Reapers.

I really hope that none of this was just caused by trying to make Mass Effect appeal to the mentally diluted masses, because that would be a damn shame; I’m really banking of BioWare to pull out an ace.

Much of it is certainly up for interpretation, but I'm among those who have called SpaceBrat's bluff on "The Crucible will not discriminate..."

It's already clear from the specific targeting behind Control and Synthesis, (especially Synthesis, as there is no visible interaction from the Citadel except to expel the energy), that something within the system can discriminate, apparently down to, at least, the level of chemical compound.

[masster blaster]

It's okay if he's gone in the end he gave up and ran away from the fight just like many others, and were is the loyalty in supporting in what you believe in. Sure their is strong evidence that IT may not be true, but There is strong evidence that IT is true. Over all Bioware tried to play it both ways but they knew the peace won't last since ME4 would be announced and now WE GOT THIS NEW DLC THAT MAY JUST DISPROVE THE GOD CHILD"S LOGIC BUT MORE AFFECTIVE.So maybe HE and many others may come back but for now we all that's left, but maybe we can still recover if this DLC is confirmed by Bioware, but the EC kind of already proves it since it WAS in the the EC files.

[jgibson14352]

plfranke wrote...

Guys I have a couple of thoughts. First the catalyst says that the Reapers share the knowledge of the species they harvest, yet they didn't know that the crucible plans survived. How is that? Second I heard something new the last few times listening to Harbinger... Cerberus

the catalysts stated that he knew of the plans, but didnt know they survived, as in he thought that the reapers had destroyed all evidence. i imagine they only collect the knowledge of those who they turn into husks or indoctrinate, and that could limit specific details such as last minute efforts to hide the plans

[masster blaster]

HellishFiend wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Have you seen THE BIG O it's kind of like what Happened in ME3's endings and you know what's funny Resident Evil was thought to be real but in the final movie it was a an illusion. And if you don't believe me look up the trailer.

BIG O! BIG O BIG O BIG O!!!

Could never stand that intro music... <_<

Hay it was a good show but very comfusing at times and mainly the ending of the BIg O at most was very questionable.

[Salient Archer]

Arian Dynas wrote...

To put the whole whether or not you saw Harbinger thing to bed, Salient, it was also possible to never meet Wrex or Garrus in ME1, and they didn't write separate scenes for that, to my knowledge.

Actually you do have to meet Garrus in ME1 when you go up to see the council, but if you never recruit him Garrus' meeting with Shep is different in ME2.



EDIT: Can I add that an ME game without Garrus just isn't worth playing.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 29 juin 2012 - 01:25 .

[Auralius Carolus]

jgibson14352 wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...
 Although it never announces itself  as "I am Harbinger" it is "we are Harbinger" it's more like saying "we are the heralds of the coming apocalypse" opposed to an actual title.

As for the data-pad that Joker hands Shepard at the end of ME2 I find that to be circumstantial evidence at best; Im sure that data-pad contained more information on than just a picture of Harby and I also doubt it had any names relating to any of the Reapers (considering organics name them) and I think it's safe to assume it also contained images about all the other Reaper types too, remember the ending of ME2 clearly shows several distinctly different Reaper designs which would make Harbinger’s unique appearance a moot point, with Harbinger’s actual appearance only being confirmed for Shepard during Arrival; which in my Shepard’s case didn’t even happen because he spoke to the Collector Puppet instead. 
Essentially it’s like one of us being handed an iPad with 20+ images of different people and trying to pick out which one is SubAstris. From the evidence I’d assume that SubAstris is a short fat man with a respiratory problem but for all I know SubAstris is really a 6’3” Scandinavian beauty queen olympic gold medalist.

Anyway, Having said all this; maybe they dropped the unique appearance of the other Reapers so n00bs would be able to spot Harbinger instantly and give him a more imposing presence for a thematic perspective, reality defying plot-holes be damned.

Well, the way I take it is that each Reaper is composed of- at least- millions of minds at work, contributing to the whole. Harbinger speaks as we, because even though it likely has a sovereign entity at the helm, it is still a plurality of beings. But, regardless, it refers to itself as "The Harbinger" or "Harbinger" multiple times when confronting Shepard is possessed Collectors, so it's only natural that the name stuck.

And as to the last part, it is possible although regretable- I hate seeing things dumbed down. I don't care what it is, a high standard is a good standard. Stupidity or ignorance doesn't have to be a chronic condition; raise the bar, raise the quality and let them learn.

another question to all this, Legion very specifically states that the runtimes on the old machine (sovereign) referred to themselves as "Nazara" ive always thought that this name is the name of whatever species the ship is made of, for instance thered be reapers who referred to themselves as human, or prothean. but when the reaper talks to shepard on Rannoch, he refers to harbinger literally as harbinger. for shepards benfit? maybe, i dont know, its just another thing that adds to the mystery

It is a hard call, there. But what is significant, is that there was still a reference to the importance of Shepard by Harbinger, in ME3.

[BleedingUranium]

Salient Archer wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Ok, I’m going to try and bring this up again, but every time I make a point since EC it seems to be ignored or glossed over... so fingers crossed I get my point across this time or at least get some constructive answers. Here we go...

My canon Shepard never met Harbinger and never spoke to him (as Harbinger) in Arrival, rather my Shepard spoke to Harby while he was posing as the collector general.

[as shown in the image below]



Now this raises an issue: If my Shepard never saw Harbinger in his true form how would anyone know what Harbinger looks like? No one ever had any face-to-face contact with him, not even Shepard in this case. So even when Shepard filled his reports how would he be able to describe something that he had never seen? It would be like a blind man trying to describe colour.

I should also point out that during this conversation in Arrival, Harbinger never announces what his name is regardless of what form he takes. Obviously a Reaper wouldn’t name itself considering they have no need for names, this is something we assign to them but regardless, Harbinger is clearly the name Shepard had assigned to this unique Reaper antagonist and would have been the name he gave it when presenting this information to the Alliance, but yet without seeing Harbingers image how would he be able to describe it’s defining characteristics? As far as my Shepard knew it just looked like Sovereign.

Anyway, skip forward to ME3 just before the beam charge and not only does my Shepard show fear at the mention of Harbinger’s name but Anderson also knew exactly which one was Harbinger and that somehow this information was relevant to Shepard (because a regular Reaper wouldn’t be terrifying enough apparently) So somehow without either or them (or anyone for that matter) having any idea what made Harbinger cosmetically different to all the other Reaper types both men and the entire Alliance knew exactly who Harbinger was... So why add more emphasis to Harbinger? any sovereign class reaper would have sufficed, why did Harbinger personally feel the need to be the one to confront Shepard in this final confrontation if they are just a collective intelligence after all?

This is why http://i3.kym-cdn.co...1/harbinger.jpg
On a more serious note, I think it's just a form of retcon or oversight and a minor one IMO. What does get to me though is the fact that after doing nothing since ME2 Harbinger appears, hits everyone perfectly but misses Shepard a lot, and doesn't say anything. Even though his VA did some random Batarian dude. RAAAAAAAHHHHHH 

Hi Banshee

I say it's just an oversight as a result of being able to play Arrival before the suicide mission. Bioware made it very clear Arrival is intended to be played as the very last thing you do in ME2, so it's story is written assuming that. Since you can choose to do it when you're not supposed to they changed it to the Collector before the end to avoid spoilers.

It's not to different from the hilarious scenario of picking Reject with low EMS and Destroy

I agree it might be an oversight or rather deliberation from a writing perspective. I guess I should get to the short end of what I'm really trying to get to [now that I have people talking about it].

Basically despite not having any lines of dialogue or real significance and apparently just being reduced to just 'another' Reaper thanks to the StarChild’s BS speech about “Collective intelligence, blah, blah, Reaper’s are puppets, blah, blah” Harbinger still carries weight, but why? Why save him for just a cameo at the end? Because Harbinger’s story isn’t (or shouldn’t be) finished yet, there’s noway I believe for one second that Harbinger isn’t special, he spent all of ME2 trolling Shepard every step of the way and showed that he was significant from other Reapers and now with the Leviathan of Dis being a possibility the idea of Reapers just being controlled by a ghost child reeks of utter BS in my opinion.


PS. What happens in 'Reject' when you have low EMS? My EMS is always 9,000+ no matter what I do so I haven't had the chance to see what happens.

Ah, I see what you're saying, Harby kind of becomes useless without IT. I agree with that

Nezrathul wrote...

On a more amusing note... low ems "reject" ending is hilarious. The only option is to destroy the Reapers or don't use the Crucible. The Catalyst prefers Shepard to destroy them and gets angry, if he let's him continue the cycle. To add to the hilarity, bring Liara along so she dies when running towards the beam, yet her gift says the Crucible did not work. How did she add this information post mortem?

[Derp88]

@ Auralius

Yeah, I agree with you that compared to most of the ME series, the ME3 ending is mediocre. I believe the sheer scope of the decisions and consequenses accumulated throughout the series was just too much for Bioware. They bit off more than they could chew, so to speak. With that in mind, I can (sort of) see why they ended the series like they did. They tried to do something completely different, but unfortunately it didn't really pay off. That's not to say I hated the endings. But, like you said, it's not great either, and IT was that twist that would have changed that.

@Xavendithas

Either way, whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he has to accept the Catalyst's logic. There's no alternative (except reject). But it doesn't mean Shepard has to agree with it. That's what the EC highlighted for me; Shepard's difficulty to come to terms with the options presented before him, and the difficulty in making that decision.

I can also appreciate your arguments about TIM/Saren. But I also saw them as very single-minded, and stubborn in their ideals. TIM blindly believed that control was the best course, and Saren was hell-bent on servitude and making sure he was still useful to Soveregin. It wasn't until someone as strong-willed as Shepard continually questioned these two that they started to doubt themselves and eventually led to them committing suicide to end it all.

[Salient Archer]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

*snip*

Much of it is certainly up for interpretation, but I'm among those who have called SpaceBrat's bluff on "The Crucible will not discriminate..."

It's already clear from the specific targeting behind Control and Synthesis, (especially Synthesis, as there is no visible interaction from the Citadel except to expel the energy), that something within the system can discriminate, apparently down to, at least, the level of chemical compound.

Ha, actually this was my next point about StarBrat's bullsh*ting. As if it couldn't discern between Reapers and other tech; they're fairly unique considering their age and design. I feel like my Shepard should say "So, this thing can rewrite the DNA or all organics in the galaxy, transfer my everything that I am, including my consciousness into an AI platform, but it can't tell the difference between a Reaper and my toaster? ... right, I'll take my chances!"

Modifié par Salient Archer, 29 juin 2012 - 01:29 .