55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Derp88]

Derp88 wrote...

@ Auralius

Yeah, I agree with you that compared to most of the ME series, the ME3 ending is mediocre. I believe the sheer scope of the decisions and consequenses accumulated throughout the series was just too much for Bioware. They bit off more than they could chew, so to speak. With that in mind, I can (sort of) see why they ended the series like they did. They tried to do something completely different, but unfortunately it didn't really pay off. That's not to say I hated the endings. But, like you said, it's not great either, and IT was that twist that would have changed that.

@Xavendithas

Either way, whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he has to accept the Catalyst's logic. There's no alternative (except reject). But it doesn't mean Shepard has to agree with it. That's what the EC highlighted for me; Shepard's difficulty to come to terms with the options presented before him, and the difficulty in making that decision.

I can also appreciate your arguments about TIM/Saren. But I also saw them as very single-minded, and stubborn in their ideals. TIM blindly believed that control was the best course, and Saren was hell-bent on servitude and making sure he was still useful to Soveregin. It wasn't until someone as strong-willed as Shepard continually questioned these two that they started to doubt themselves and eventually led to them committing suicide to end it all.

Edit: To both Auralius and Xavendithas

This may be a stupid question in an IT thread, but is the IT still your head canon? And if yes, do you believe Bioware are going to clarify this, or is it just how you feel the ME series ended?

[masster blaster]

Hay but didn't the planet the Normandy was on reminded you about the Salarien Home planet?

Sorry I meant the Crashed Normandy.

Modifié par masster blaster, 29 juin 2012 - 01:32 .

[Xavendithas]

Derp88 wrote...

@ Auralius

Yeah, I agree with you that compared to most of the ME series, the ME3 ending is mediocre. I believe the sheer scope of the decisions and consequenses accumulated throughout the series was just too much for Bioware. They bit off more than they could chew, so to speak. With that in mind, I can (sort of) see why they ended the series like they did. They tried to do something completely different, but unfortunately it didn't really pay off. That's not to say I hated the endings. But, like you said, it's not great either, and IT was that twist that would have changed that.

@Xavendithas

Either way, whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he has to accept the Catalyst's logic. There's no alternative (except reject). But it doesn't mean Shepard has to agree with it. That's what the EC highlighted for me; Shepard's difficulty to come to terms with the options presented before him, and the difficulty in making that decision.

I can also appreciate your arguments about TIM/Saren. But I also saw them as very single-minded, and stubborn in their ideals. TIM blindly believed that control was the best course, and Saren was hell-bent on servitude and making sure he was still useful to Soveregin. It wasn't until someone as strong-willed as Shepard continually questioned these two that they started to doubt themselves and eventually led to them committing suicide to end it all.

Take a moment and try to picture in your head what DLC confirming the indoctrination attempt might look like. A Shepard that comes out of it after having chosen 'control' or 'synthesis' might then seem just as stubborn and single-minded in their ideals. That's the whole point. We haven't seen what the end result of Shepards indoctrination would be.

[Xavendithas]

Derp88 wrote...

Edit: To both Auralius and Xavendithas

This may be a stupid question in an IT thread, but is the IT still your head canon? And if yes, do you believe Bioware are going to clarify this, or is it just how you feel the ME series ended?

I absolutely believe indoctrination is what is occuring there. I've felt that way since about an hour after I finished the game for the first time and could sit and digest it.

Which is why I continually point people from the Shepard's alive easter egg to the upcoming release of Halo 4. Any company with a product that will sell like this isn't going to cash in the chips on a character like Shepard.

Edit: And in the end....if my faith in BioWare is misplaced, I can walk away satisfied because I picked destroy. The reapers are dead, and I accomplished what I felt was the goal of the series.

Modifié par Xavendithas, 29 juin 2012 - 01:39 .

[L0NEWOLF25]

masster blaster wrote...

Hay but didn't the planet the Normandy was on reminded you about the Salarien Home planet?

Sorry I meant the Crashed Normandy.

It reminded me more of one of the uncharted worlds shepard landed on back in Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par L0NEWOLF25, 29 juin 2012 - 01:36 .

[jgibson14352]

Xavendithas wrote...

Derp88 wrote...

@ Auralius

Yeah, I agree with you that compared to most of the ME series, the ME3 ending is mediocre. I believe the sheer scope of the decisions and consequenses accumulated throughout the series was just too much for Bioware. They bit off more than they could chew, so to speak. With that in mind, I can (sort of) see why they ended the series like they did. They tried to do something completely different, but unfortunately it didn't really pay off. That's not to say I hated the endings. But, like you said, it's not great either, and IT was that twist that would have changed that.

@Xavendithas

Either way, whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he has to accept the Catalyst's logic. There's no alternative (except reject). But it doesn't mean Shepard has to agree with it. That's what the EC highlighted for me; Shepard's difficulty to come to terms with the options presented before him, and the difficulty in making that decision.

I can also appreciate your arguments about TIM/Saren. But I also saw them as very single-minded, and stubborn in their ideals. TIM blindly believed that control was the best course, and Saren was hell-bent on servitude and making sure he was still useful to Soveregin. It wasn't until someone as strong-willed as Shepard continually questioned these two that they started to doubt themselves and eventually led to them committing suicide to end it all.

Take a moment and try to picture in your head what DLC confirming the indoctrination attempt might look like. A Shepard that comes out of it after having chosen 'control' or 'synthesis' might then seem just as stubborn and single-minded in their ideals. That's the whole point. We haven't seen what the end result of Shepards indoctrination would be.

i agree that any dlc involving the IT being correct would be a massive undertaking, i mean, how would you develop the story for a dlc like that? then again, thats what we pay bioware for

[masster blaster]

But that's the Hard part Derp88. Bioware screwed up any future ME games because they said that " There will be more Me games in the ME universe, but not of Shepard" And the fact that they really can't go back and make a game about ME in the past because we already know about what happened to the other cycles and it's kind of point less that they go back in time and we see the cycles fight a battle that won't end until billions of years later.

Also Bioware know has four endings which means if we have four endings and if they wanted to do more ME games they will have to consider the Choice that Shepard made that will determine the future of the galaxy. And if they don't then that's just very lazy and that proves the endings are to much for Bioware to handle yet alone create one game that involves all the endings that are in ME3 just to bring into ME4.

[Auralius Carolus]

Derp88 wrote...

Derp88 wrote...

@ Auralius

Yeah, I agree with you that compared to most of the ME series, the ME3 ending is mediocre. I believe the sheer scope of the decisions and consequenses accumulated throughout the series was just too much for Bioware. They bit off more than they could chew, so to speak. With that in mind, I can (sort of) see why they ended the series like they did. They tried to do something completely different, but unfortunately it didn't really pay off. That's not to say I hated the endings. But, like you said, it's not great either, and IT was that twist that would have changed that.

@Xavendithas

Either way, whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he has to accept the Catalyst's logic. There's no alternative (except reject). But it doesn't mean Shepard has to agree with it. That's what the EC highlighted for me; Shepard's difficulty to come to terms with the options presented before him, and the difficulty in making that decision.

I can also appreciate your arguments about TIM/Saren. But I also saw them as very single-minded, and stubborn in their ideals. TIM blindly believed that control was the best course, and Saren was hell-bent on servitude and making sure he was still useful to Soveregin. It wasn't until someone as strong-willed as Shepard continually questioned these two that they started to doubt themselves and eventually led to them committing suicide to end it all.

Edit: To both Auralius and Xavendithas

This may be a stupid question in an IT thread, but is the IT still your head canon? And if yes, do you believe Bioware are going to clarify this, or is it just how you feel the ME series ended?

I don't know if I've ever really called it my "head canon", as I try and stay critical, but the evidence still compels me to say that IT is still viable and it is certainly the most intruiging possibility. As to clarification- if they will, it will be some time and likely not be verbal, but as a DLC or new game. Right now, they seem to be playing the fence and I dislike that, greatly. It's simply gone on for too long...

[Salient Archer]

BleedingUranium wrote...
Ah, I see what you're saying, Harby kind of becomes useless without IT. I agree with that

 No, What I'm saying is Harby DOES become useless without IT and BioWare knows this and despite all this they still put a heavy thematic investment into him, even more so in the extended cut. Lets face it, without IT Harbinger's just another puppet of the StarChild.

Despite StarChild's 'All Reaper's are one' speech that he gives you, the Reaper of Rannoch says "Harbinger speaks of you" as if it's a separate entity, like they're individuals; which fits in more strongly with how both Sovereign and Harbinger portrayed Reapers previously.

In short: this shows that the StarChild is either contradicting himself or is trying to portray the Reaper’s as individuals to possibly mask his own existence; either way it shows that he’s lied to you once already.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 29 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[Derp88]

Xavendithas wrote...

Derp88 wrote...

@ Auralius

Yeah, I agree with you that compared to most of the ME series, the ME3 ending is mediocre. I believe the sheer scope of the decisions and consequenses accumulated throughout the series was just too much for Bioware. They bit off more than they could chew, so to speak. With that in mind, I can (sort of) see why they ended the series like they did. They tried to do something completely different, but unfortunately it didn't really pay off. That's not to say I hated the endings. But, like you said, it's not great either, and IT was that twist that would have changed that.

@Xavendithas

Either way, whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he has to accept the Catalyst's logic. There's no alternative (except reject). But it doesn't mean Shepard has to agree with it. That's what the EC highlighted for me; Shepard's difficulty to come to terms with the options presented before him, and the difficulty in making that decision.

I can also appreciate your arguments about TIM/Saren. But I also saw them as very single-minded, and stubborn in their ideals. TIM blindly believed that control was the best course, and Saren was hell-bent on servitude and making sure he was still useful to Soveregin. It wasn't until someone as strong-willed as Shepard continually questioned these two that they started to doubt themselves and eventually led to them committing suicide to end it all.

Take a moment and try to picture in your head what DLC confirming the indoctrination attempt might look like. A Shepard that comes out of it after having chosen 'control' or 'synthesis' might then seem just as stubborn and single-minded in their ideals. That's the whole point. We haven't seen what the end result of Shepards indoctrination would be.

Yeah, I see your point, Hypothetically, if it was expanded upon, Shepard could be just as stubborn. Hell, your canon Shepard may already be pretty stubborn, such as a Renegade Shep.

But my Shepard only moments ago before finding the secret elevator managed to convince TIM that he was being manipulated by the Reapers. This, to me, shows that Shepard's mind is still very well his own and he still possesses that strong willpower that manages to temporarily snap others out of indoctrination. It would be kind of a stretch to say from that point on Shepard's willpower had diminished to a point where he blindly just accepts the Reapers' logic.

That's why I believe he makes a choice based on the Catalyst's logic because he knows there's no other way. It's either that, or do it the conventional way, which we now know is not possible with the EC.

[jgibson14352]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Derp88 wrote...

Derp88 wrote...

@ Auralius

Yeah, I agree with you that compared to most of the ME series, the ME3 ending is mediocre. I believe the sheer scope of the decisions and consequenses accumulated throughout the series was just too much for Bioware. They bit off more than they could chew, so to speak. With that in mind, I can (sort of) see why they ended the series like they did. They tried to do something completely different, but unfortunately it didn't really pay off. That's not to say I hated the endings. But, like you said, it's not great either, and IT was that twist that would have changed that.

@Xavendithas

Either way, whether Shepard is indoctrinated or not, he has to accept the Catalyst's logic. There's no alternative (except reject). But it doesn't mean Shepard has to agree with it. That's what the EC highlighted for me; Shepard's difficulty to come to terms with the options presented before him, and the difficulty in making that decision.

I can also appreciate your arguments about TIM/Saren. But I also saw them as very single-minded, and stubborn in their ideals. TIM blindly believed that control was the best course, and Saren was hell-bent on servitude and making sure he was still useful to Soveregin. It wasn't until someone as strong-willed as Shepard continually questioned these two that they started to doubt themselves and eventually led to them committing suicide to end it all.

Edit: To both Auralius and Xavendithas

This may be a stupid question in an IT thread, but is the IT still your head canon? And if yes, do you believe Bioware are going to clarify this, or is it just how you feel the ME series ended?

I don't know if I've ever really called it my "head canon", as I try and stay critical, but the evidence still compels me to say that IT is still viable and it is certainly the most intruiging possibility. As to clarification- if they will, it will be some time and likely not be verbal, but as a DLC or new game. Right now, they seem to be playing the fence and I dislike that, greatly. It's simply gone on for too long...

 i agree with you,and i know ive posted this before, but stuff like this doesnt help

Modifié par jgibson14352, 29 juin 2012 - 01:48 .

[Andromidius]

I honestly don't understand how people are suddenly declaring the EC to be amazing and a fix to all the problems of ME3. Especially people who were so angry about it before, and were helping to expand upon IT right from the start.

Fact is, I consider the EC to be in many ways worse then the original version from a literal 'as you see it' standpoint. It actually made me angry at how ham fisted and contrived it was, almost like a checklist was made while writing it of 'plotholes/critcisms to address' rather then any real attempt to fix the narrative flow and themes that were broken in the first place.

Or are people really that impressed with a bit of tinsil?

[HellishFiend]

jgibson14352 wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

I don't know if I've ever really called it my "head canon", as I try and stay critical, but the evidence still compels me to say that IT is still viable and it is certainly the most intruiging possibility. As to clarification- if they will, it will be some time and likely not be verbal, but as a DLC or new game. Right now, they seem to be playing the fence and I dislike that, greatly. It's simply gone on for too long...

 i agree with you,and i know ive posted this before, but stuff like this doesnt help

You realize that could easily be a play on words, right?

definitive version of the endings to the Mass Effect trilogy 

"endings to the Mass Effect trilogy" does not imply that there will not be content chronologically before or after the endings that confirms IT

 and the final resolution of Commander Shepard’s journey 

Just because Shepard's journey is considered resolved does not imply that content from another perspective could not confirm IT. 

We have no plans to release further content related to the endings. 

Same as the first one. Releasing no "further content related to the endings" does not imply that there will not be content chronologically before or after the endings that confirms IT.

[Wolfram Tarant]

Also Bioware know has four endings which means if we have four endings and if they wanted to do more ME games they will have to consider the Choice that Shepard made that will determine the future of the galaxy. And if they don't then that's just very lazy and that proves the endings are to much for Bioware to handle yet alone create one game that involves all the endings that are in ME3 just to bring into ME4.

Really? Accounting for every possible ending after the EC in a post-reaper ME game would be an ENORMOUS challenge. Regarding save game transfers, just look at ME2 and ME3... it didn't make a very profound impact. It's completely illogical to assume that Bioware has had time to craft an entirely unique experience based on your choices.

IF there's another Mass Effect, I would like to start from scratch and not have to worry about choices I may or may not have made in a previous game.

Modifié par Wolfram Tarant, 29 juin 2012 - 01:57 .

[Xavendithas]

Derp88 wrote...

Yeah, I see your point, Hypothetically, if it was expanded upon, Shepard could be just as stubborn. Hell, your canon Shepard may already be pretty stubborn, such as a Renegade Shep.

But my Shepard only moments ago before finding the secret elevator managed to convince TIM that he was being manipulated by the Reapers. This, to me, shows that Shepard's mind is still very well his own and he still possesses that strong willpower that manages to temporarily snap others out of indoctrination. It would be kind of a stretch to say from that point on Shepard's willpower had diminished to a point where he blindly just accepts the Reapers' logic.

That's why I believe he makes a choice based on the Catalyst's logic because he knows there's no other way. It's either that, or do it the conventional way, which we now know is not possible with the EC.

My canon Shepard was very Chaotic Good. He also talked TIM down. That's besides the point.

All of the variations on IT set aside, I think most of us would agree that the whole point behind the decision chamber is whether or not the player loses sight of what we set out to do originally, and that is destroy the reapers.

I would argue that anyone that picks anything but destroy would be playing directly into the Reapers hands(tentacles??). They have lost sight of what the original goal was and willingly picked an option that does not jeopardize the reapers existance. From what I've heard of the 'reject' ending, it sounds like it's Shepard just saying "**** it, I'm to tired to fight anymore..." which also plays right into the reapers hands. S/he probably says it far more eloquently.

[v0rt3x22]

Guys I made a thread about this but people dismissed it. I just wanted to bring it up here again because it's really bugging me.

Did you know that in May (not 2 months ago!) Christ Priestly ran a poll on how many people believed in IT?

80% did.

What's bugging me - if I put myself in his shoes is - why would I do this as a developer?

Run a poll on a very popular subject with the community - knowing that by doing so - it could cause the community to speculate on the implications of me (as a developer) running that poll. Why would he do that if he didn't have some sort of thought or agenda about it.

It's very strange to me and I think it implies that either he wanted to see how many people are on the right track (if that was BioWare's intention) or how popular the idea is.

And as a developer if I had an 80% approval rate - id seriously consider.

Thoughts?

(I don't have a link to the poll right now - its in one of my threads - but you can find it on google)

Modifié par v0rt3x22, 29 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[v0rt3x22]

Double post

Modifié par v0rt3x22, 29 juin 2012 - 01:56 .

[ZeogYoru vas Tasi]

 So, I just beat the Extended cut. And destroyed the Reapers, Shepard survived. I don't know about you guys, in my mind, there's still room for the IT to be true. I'd also like to point something out which was said at the end. 


"We look forward to sharing further adventures with you in the Mass Effect universe.

-The Mass Effect Team."

That makes me wonder what they're going to make next, Mass Effect 4?  A prequal(Because, you know. Every other game series is totally not already doing that)? Don't know. But what I do know, is that EC restored my faith in Bioware, and the Mass Effect Team. It may not have been IT, but heck, in my mind, it was still pretty good.

But now I can't help but think what the sequal would be about. Shepard survived, along with everyone, but Mordin, Thane, EDI, and Legion. The practically insavable characters. That's only 4, two already said they're nearing death(Mordin said he was reaching the end of his years), one the ship, which might be able to be restored somehow? She was just an AI, a backup or something could be used. And as for Legion, well, no matter what. He's dead and gone. <_<

Easily replaceable, or already dead. Sounds to me like they're setting up for a new band of characters. Maybe in the next Mass Effect, Shepard will wake up from his battle with Indoctrination, and be recovered by Joker and the gang. The campaign could be about Shepard fighting Indoctrination while trying to find the actual souce of Reapers? Maybe the original creators of the Reapers, and the actual reason for the Reapers was to harvest all organic life, and then use them as food for the Creators. Then let the cycle repeat?

Dunno, just an idea(s)/Rambling. 

[Derp88]

Andromidius wrote...

I honestly don't understand how people are suddenly declaring the EC to be amazing and a fix to all the problems of ME3. Especially people who were so angry about it before, and were helping to expand upon IT right from the start.

Fact is, I consider the EC to be in many ways worse then the original version from a literal 'as you see it' standpoint. It actually made me angry at how ham fisted and contrived it was, almost like a checklist was made while writing it of 'plotholes/critcisms to address' rather then any real attempt to fix the narrative flow and themes that were broken in the first place.

Or are people really that impressed with a bit of tinsil?

I don't believe the EC to be the cure for all of ME3's ailments regarding the ending. I do however believe it provided more closure for my Shepard and the Mass Effect universe. It didn't make the ending great, but was enough for me to one day play the Mass Effect series again.

[jgibson14352]

HellishFiend wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

I don't know if I've ever really called it my "head canon", as I try and stay critical, but the evidence still compels me to say that IT is still viable and it is certainly the most intruiging possibility. As to clarification- if they will, it will be some time and likely not be verbal, but as a DLC or new game. Right now, they seem to be playing the fence and I dislike that, greatly. It's simply gone on for too long...

 i agree with you,and i know ive posted this before, but stuff like this doesnt help

You realize that could easily be a play on words, right?

definitive version of the endings to the Mass Effect trilogy 

"endings to the Mass Effect trilogy" does not imply that there will not be content chronologically before or after the endings that confirms IT

 and the final resolution of Commander Shepard’s journey 

Just because Shepard's journey is considered resolved does not imply that content from another perspective could not confirm IT. 

We have no plans to release further content related to the endings. 

Same as the first one. Releasing no "further content related to the endings" does not imply that there will not be content chronologically before or after the endings that confirms IT.

..i think youre seeing stuff thats not there. his post seemed rather definite. earlier in this thread i was convinced not to take what he said so seriously, but the fact his he said it, and it does carry weight, him being in the bioware team. 
i DO agree with your point that it can be confirmed or denied from a different perspective, but whose? and how would this benefit/satisfy the player? and of course we have nothing planned doesnt confirm or deny anything either

Modifié par jgibson14352, 29 juin 2012 - 02:00 .

[Xavendithas]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Double post

It's on the HTL forums. I looked into it after it happened. HTL was having some sort of initiative involving sending BioWare tons of mail. Fan art, fanfic, postcards about the game, you name it, they wanted to send it in. Someone took things a bit too far and sent Priestly some really threatening crap on HTL stationary, and that's when the poll popped up.

[HellishFiend]

jgibson14352 wrote...

..i think youre seeing stuff thats not there. his post seemed rather definite. earlier in this thread i was convinced not to take what he said so seriously, but the fact his he said it, and it does carry weight, him being in the bioware team. 
i DO agree with your point that it can be confirmed or denied from a different perspective, but whose? and how would this benefit/satisfy the player?

And I think you're allowing a clever play on words to cause you to draw conclusions that arent there. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I am quite versed in the art of hiding lies within truths, and I can guarantee you that if I were them and trying to hide the upcoming Indoctrination reveal, I would be saying those exact. same. things. 

[v0rt3x22]

Xavendithas wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Double post

It's on the HTL forums. I looked into it after it happened. HTL was having some sort of initiative involving sending BioWare tons of mail. Fan art, fanfic, postcards about the game, you name it, they wanted to send it in. Someone took things a bit too far and sent Priestly some really threatening crap on HTL stationary, and that's when the poll popped up.

So what do you make of it?

[Xavendithas]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

Double post

It's on the HTL forums. I looked into it after it happened. HTL was having some sort of initiative involving sending BioWare tons of mail. Fan art, fanfic, postcards about the game, you name it, they wanted to send it in. Someone took things a bit too far and sent Priestly some really threatening crap on HTL stationary, and that's when the poll popped up.

So what do you make of it?

He was either blowing smoke up everyones ass to keep people quiet, or we are going to see IT clarification sometime around when they release the Earth MP pack.

Modifié par Xavendithas, 29 juin 2012 - 02:03 .