just something to post to keep the thread going, and a thought that i still cant get out of my head, regarding the Rachni, javik says they were in his cycle as well. remember the prothean vi on thessia? he said that certain patterns repeat themselves in each cycle, one being the protheans and the Zha'Til in the metacon wars, this current cycles being with the geth. they both faced opposition form organic, then later synthetic enemies. while those conflicts split galactic organization, the reapers, half organic half synthetic, would strike. remember javik said he thought the protheans had hunted the rachni to extinction as well. the rachni are important because they imply that the reapers use the rachni and the synthetics in every cycle against the larger organic population. the queen said there was a maddening sour note, showing that the reapers took control over the rachni. in ME3, if you killed the rachni in ME1, the reapers have cloned a new queen. if you havent put the puzzle together yet, it shows that the rachni have always been a tool of the reapers but where does that put them in the war against the reapers? couldnt they just retake control?
I've yet to see any explanation for these "cycles" except for the theory that Vendetta was tampered by the Reapers to begin with. It doesn't make any sense how the Protheans knew all of this stuff about how previous cycles went, yet they were caught completely by surprise by the Reapers. They managed to get all this information on minor events of "countless" cycles yet they didn't get wind of the biggest event of any one of them? Pfft.
just something to post to keep the thread going, and a thought that i still cant get out of my head, regarding the Rachni, javik says they were in his cycle as well. remember the prothean vi on thessia? he said that certain patterns repeat themselves in each cycle, one being the protheans and the Zha'Til in the metacon wars, this current cycles being with the geth. they both faced opposition form organic, then later synthetic enemies. while those conflicts split galactic organization, the reapers, half organic half synthetic, would strike. remember javik said he thought the protheans had hunted the rachni to extinction as well. the rachni are important because they imply that the reapers use the rachni and the synthetics in every cycle against the larger organic population. the queen said there was a maddening sour note, showing that the reapers took control over the rachni. in ME3, if you killed the rachni in ME1, the reapers have cloned a new queen. if you havent put the puzzle together yet, it shows that the rachni have always been a tool of the reapers but where does that put them in the war against the reapers? couldnt they just retake control?
I've yet to see any explanation for these "cycles" except for the theory that Vendetta was tampered by the Reapers to begin with. It doesn't make any sense how the Protheans knew all of this stuff about how previous cycles went, yet they were caught completely by surprise by the Reapers. They managed to get all this information on minor events of "countless" cycles yet they didn't get wind of the biggest event of any one of them? Pfft.
Vendetta never felt right. He reminds me of the catalyst child in fact. Always trying to go above your head. It didn't work. Could they be one in the same?
just something to post to keep the thread going, and a thought that i still cant get out of my head, regarding the Rachni, javik says they were in his cycle as well. remember the prothean vi on thessia? he said that certain patterns repeat themselves in each cycle, one being the protheans and the Zha'Til in the metacon wars, this current cycles being with the geth. they both faced opposition form organic, then later synthetic enemies. while those conflicts split galactic organization, the reapers, half organic half synthetic, would strike. remember javik said he thought the protheans had hunted the rachni to extinction as well. the rachni are important because they imply that the reapers use the rachni and the synthetics in every cycle against the larger organic population. the queen said there was a maddening sour note, showing that the reapers took control over the rachni. in ME3, if you killed the rachni in ME1, the reapers have cloned a new queen. if you havent put the puzzle together yet, it shows that the rachni have always been a tool of the reapers but where does that put them in the war against the reapers? couldnt they just retake control?
I've yet to see any explanation for these "cycles" except for the theory that Vendetta was tampered by the Reapers to begin with. It doesn't make any sense how the Protheans knew all of this stuff about how previous cycles went, yet they were caught completely by surprise by the Reapers. They managed to get all this information on minor events of "countless" cycles yet they didn't get wind of the biggest event of any one of them? Pfft.
Also, Vendetta's a VI, but you found a beacon. We know how both work, VI's don't live in beacons so he was probably a plant, and Shep never actually used the beacon
Modifié par BleedingUranium, 29 juin 2012 - 03:56 .
One of the things most upsetting in Me3 is it's impossible to know what is just bad writing and a problem that is intentionally there for you to find. For instance I have an interesting theory about the crucible but it hinges on the VI on Thessia being truthful. However, there are a ton of things he says that make it hard to take him seriously like what Rifneno said earlier. It's just annoying that you can't tell who's telling the truth, who's really indoctrinated. If done properly it can be intriguing like a mystery that needs to be solved, but as it is it's just frustrating.
just something to post to keep the thread going, and a thought that i still cant get out of my head, regarding the Rachni, javik says they were in his cycle as well. remember the prothean vi on thessia? he said that certain patterns repeat themselves in each cycle, one being the protheans and the Zha'Til in the metacon wars, this current cycles being with the geth. they both faced opposition form organic, then later synthetic enemies. while those conflicts split galactic organization, the reapers, half organic half synthetic, would strike. remember javik said he thought the protheans had hunted the rachni to extinction as well. the rachni are important because they imply that the reapers use the rachni and the synthetics in every cycle against the larger organic population. the queen said there was a maddening sour note, showing that the reapers took control over the rachni. in ME3, if you killed the rachni in ME1, the reapers have cloned a new queen. if you havent put the puzzle together yet, it shows that the rachni have always been a tool of the reapers but where does that put them in the war against the reapers? couldnt they just retake control?
I've yet to see any explanation for these "cycles" except for the theory that Vendetta was tampered by the Reapers to begin with. It doesn't make any sense how the Protheans knew all of this stuff about how previous cycles went, yet they were caught completely by surprise by the Reapers. They managed to get all this information on minor events of "countless" cycles yet they didn't get wind of the biggest event of any one of them? Pfft.
It's possible they uncovered the information at some point during the rather lengthy period of time the Reapers were eradicating the galaxy. Too little, too late, as it were.
just something to post to keep the thread going, and a thought that i still cant get out of my head, regarding the Rachni, javik says they were in his cycle as well. remember the prothean vi on thessia? he said that certain patterns repeat themselves in each cycle, one being the protheans and the Zha'Til in the metacon wars, this current cycles being with the geth. they both faced opposition form organic, then later synthetic enemies. while those conflicts split galactic organization, the reapers, half organic half synthetic, would strike. remember javik said he thought the protheans had hunted the rachni to extinction as well. the rachni are important because they imply that the reapers use the rachni and the synthetics in every cycle against the larger organic population. the queen said there was a maddening sour note, showing that the reapers took control over the rachni. in ME3, if you killed the rachni in ME1, the reapers have cloned a new queen. if you havent put the puzzle together yet, it shows that the rachni have always been a tool of the reapers but where does that put them in the war against the reapers? couldnt they just retake control?
I've yet to see any explanation for these "cycles" except for the theory that Vendetta was tampered by the Reapers to begin with. It doesn't make any sense how the Protheans knew all of this stuff about how previous cycles went, yet they were caught completely by surprise by the Reapers. They managed to get all this information on minor events of "countless" cycles yet they didn't get wind of the biggest event of any one of them? Pfft.
the protheans are always known to be more advanced then the current cycle, and were more widespread, offerening them more planets to find more eviedence from the Innusannon. its stated throughout the ME games that the reason this cycle couldnt uncover a great deal from the protheans is because all the information recording devices for the prothean utilized their own physiology. like how the beacons transmitted ideas across planets, and its why shepard couldnt understand the beacon when he first saw it, not without the physiological understanding of the prothean mind he was granted with the Cipher
Doesn't matter what you do, you follow the same plot rails. Though at least you can 'choose' who lives and dies at certain points, though ultimately it makes no odds since if they were required for the plot they are replaced with another character who does the exact same things.
Oh no. Not even close. Not even remotely close. If a character to be used is imported dead, ME3 provides you with alternate characters whose personalities vary a bit from the original characters. In DA2 if a character to be used is imported dead, they retcon the death and use them anyway. If the genophage or quarian/geth stories were written by the DA2 team, Shepard would make no difference in the outcome, you'd just get to pick which side you fight for. It would all end up exactly the same anyway. Options like shooting Mordin to prevent the cure wouldn't be there. You'd only be given the chance to threaten to shoot him, you couldn't actually do it.
just something to post to keep the thread going, and a thought that i still cant get out of my head, regarding the Rachni, javik says they were in his cycle as well. remember the prothean vi on thessia? he said that certain patterns repeat themselves in each cycle, one being the protheans and the Zha'Til in the metacon wars, this current cycles being with the geth. they both faced opposition form organic, then later synthetic enemies. while those conflicts split galactic organization, the reapers, half organic half synthetic, would strike. remember javik said he thought the protheans had hunted the rachni to extinction as well. the rachni are important because they imply that the reapers use the rachni and the synthetics in every cycle against the larger organic population. the queen said there was a maddening sour note, showing that the reapers took control over the rachni. in ME3, if you killed the rachni in ME1, the reapers have cloned a new queen. if you havent put the puzzle together yet, it shows that the rachni have always been a tool of the reapers but where does that put them in the war against the reapers? couldnt they just retake control?
I've yet to see any explanation for these "cycles" except for the theory that Vendetta was tampered by the Reapers to begin with. It doesn't make any sense how the Protheans knew all of this stuff about how previous cycles went, yet they were caught completely by surprise by the Reapers. They managed to get all this information on minor events of "countless" cycles yet they didn't get wind of the biggest event of any one of them? Pfft.
Also, Vendetta's a VI, but you found a beacon. We know how both work, VI's don't live in beacons so he was probably a plant, and Shep never actually used the beacon
I'm going to assume you meant the beacon in ME3 right? I hope you don't mean that video where Shep wakes up on the normandy in ME1 lol.
You already know I am one too, and I often find the best way to get a good idea...
is to steal it
Actually, I didn't know that! But its always nice to meet fellow authors:lol:
My main problem is one of my two pet projects is rooted in fanfiction (Warhammer 40,000, and any attempts to alter it into my own setting results in it being too similar to Mass Effect...), and the other is about Vampires (and thus is highly sterotypical, cliché and get associated with either Twilight or Underworld almost instantly).
Tis rather depressing at times.
Ah 40k... my personal chapter is the Blood Ravens (GLORY TO THE GREAT FATHER! GLORY TO MORIAH! GLORY TO ELIZUR! GLORY TO ANGELOS AND DIOMEDES!) And I would be part of the (admittedly few) crazy bunch who feels that the original intented unknown primarch of the Chapter (before C.S.Goto got in there and ****ed things up) was Horus himself.
You likely have seen the ending script I wrote for kicks, you can find the link in my sig if not, and I personally spend my time working on a series of original fantasy novels.
I take cliches and give then a twist.
My dwarves are going extinct, stand 5 foot tall on average, manipulate their king through an enforced technocracy, and the vast majority of their crumbling empire is maintained and supported on the backs of clockwork automata.
My vampires are not turned humans, but a species unto themselves, best described as chinese vampire werewolf Fremen, with most of the classical vampire weaknesses expressed as social tabboo rather than physical needs.
My elves are japanese inspired fractious greeks, divided into castes each focusing on an aspect of elven life from birth (the elven army is basically the Spartans)
My "orcs" are humans who burn books, beleiving that writing something down commits it to the page, trapping knowledge there, they themselves long banished from their own homeland by a magical cataclysm they caused in an attempt to end mortality and become unlike unto the angels, gods and elder spirits themselves. They're also the same people as my jewish equivalent, whom, not having taken part in the experiments are still blamed for the actions of their cousins thousands of years later.
Oh, and my villain is a centuries old evil sorcer who made a faustian pact for power, security and immortality, and now finds himself arranging mental games with opponents throughout history to stave off the weight of years, victory or death, either is a win for him
Also, Vendetta's a VI, but you found a beacon. We know how both work, VI's don't live in beacons so he was probably a plant, and Shep never actually used the beacon
That's a really good point. Not to mention we've also seen a Prothean VI, and it didn't take the form of a Prothean.
And there are busts of Protheans in the temple. If it was thought the tentical-faced statues were Prothean... Why do those exist?
...
But yeah, the VI being a trap would be a nice twist - would also explain why Kai Leng shows up right after they recover it, and why the VI refused to help them and almost turns itself off when it decides the cycle is already too far in - but then suddenly sticks around when told 'hang on!'
Weak connection to IT though. But its an interesting inconsistancy with the story, and an alternative view on what's actually going on.
the protheans are always known to be more advanced then the current cycle, and were more widespread, offerening them more planets to find more eviedence from the Innusannon. its stated throughout the ME games that the reason this cycle couldnt uncover a great deal from the protheans is because all the information recording devices for the prothean utilized their own physiology. like how the beacons transmitted ideas across planets, and its why shepard couldnt understand the beacon when he first saw it, not without the physiological understanding of the prothean mind he was granted with the Cipher
They could find evidence from the Inusannon but it's unlikely they'd find much from the cycle before theirs. Vendetta claimed they had knowledge of many, many previous cycles. How did they find so much knowledge without a single warning about the Reapers?
Also, Vendetta's a VI, but you found a beacon. We know how both work, VI's don't live in beacons so he was probably a plant, and Shep never actually used the beacon
That's a really good point. Not to mention we've also seen a Prothean VI, and it didn't take the form of a Prothean.
And there are busts of Protheans in the temple. If it was thought the tentical-faced statues were Prothean... Why do those exist?
...
But yeah, the VI being a trap would be a nice twist - would also explain why Kai Leng shows up right after they recover it, and why the VI refused to help them and almost turns itself off when it decides the cycle is already too far in - but then suddenly sticks around when told 'hang on!'
Weak connection to IT though. But its an interesting inconsistancy with the story, and an alternative view on what's actually going on.
the myriad numbers of statues in ME1 could be written off as art of another species. or even that the protheans were using a world that was previously occupied by a subservent race, and after their subjugation were forced to allow a base on it, thus the statues being their art. either way, its a very minor plot point, far from what i would call a hole
But yeah, the VI being a trap would be a nice twist - would also explain why Kai Leng shows up right after they recover it, and why the VI refused to help them and almost turns itself off when it decides the cycle is already too far in - but then suddenly sticks around when told 'hang on!'
Weak connection to IT though. But its an interesting inconsistancy with the story, and an alternative view on what's actually going on.
There is a middle ground you know. That being that the VI isn't a trap exactly, but the Prothean it was created from was mildly to moderately indoctrinated and had begun drinking Reaper kool-aid as it were.
Doesn't matter what you do, you follow the same plot rails. Though at least you can 'choose' who lives and dies at certain points, though ultimately it makes no odds since if they were required for the plot they are replaced with another character who does the exact same things.
Oh no. Not even close. Not even remotely close. If a character to be used is imported dead, ME3 provides you with alternate characters whose personalities vary a bit from the original characters. In DA2 if a character to be used is imported dead, they retcon the death and use them anyway. If the genophage or quarian/geth stories were written by the DA2 team, Shepard would make no difference in the outcome, you'd just get to pick which side you fight for. It would all end up exactly the same anyway. Options like shooting Mordin to prevent the cure wouldn't be there. You'd only be given the chance to threaten to shoot him, you couldn't actually do it.
hahaha I've never played it but you make it sound horrible
the protheans are always known to be more advanced then the current cycle, and were more widespread, offerening them more planets to find more eviedence from the Innusannon. its stated throughout the ME games that the reason this cycle couldnt uncover a great deal from the protheans is because all the information recording devices for the prothean utilized their own physiology. like how the beacons transmitted ideas across planets, and its why shepard couldnt understand the beacon when he first saw it, not without the physiological understanding of the prothean mind he was granted with the Cipher
They could find evidence from the Inusannon but it's unlikely they'd find much from the cycle before theirs. Vendetta claimed they had knowledge of many, many previous cycles. How did they find so much knowledge without a single warning about the Reapers?
the reapers use their indoctrinated agents to erase any evidence of them being there, as Liara said in ME1, its as if someone went back and erased all evidence of what caused their extinction. also, the reapers leave a vanguard to make sure all is well, along with numerous artifacts (check Evolution, Arrival, side missions in ME1) so any evidence or warning of an invasion could easily be blocked. besides, how plausible is that? the council obviously saw it as ridiculous, what would the no-nonsense strict protheans think of one crackpot?
Also, Vendetta's a VI, but you found a beacon. We know how both work, VI's don't live in beacons so he was probably a plant, and Shep never actually used the beacon
That's a really good point. Not to mention we've also seen a Prothean VI, and it didn't take the form of a Prothean.
And there are busts of Protheans in the temple. If it was thought the tentical-faced statues were Prothean... Why do those exist?
...
But yeah, the VI being a trap would be a nice twist - would also explain why Kai Leng shows up right after they recover it, and why the VI refused to help them and almost turns itself off when it decides the cycle is already too far in - but then suddenly sticks around when told 'hang on!'
Weak connection to IT though. But its an interesting inconsistancy with the story, and an alternative view on what's actually going on.
Pretty much everything there can be explained actually. Vigil was badly damaged and out of power so it didn't take form. (This is actually a plot reason because BW didn't figure out what they wanted Protheans to look like until ME2.) Those busts? Inusannon. (Thought it was obvious they weren't prothean. You know, because Javik doesn't look like that.) As for Kai Leng, it could go either way. TIM ordered him to go there before Shep.
Arian Dynas wrote... I take cliches and give then a twist.
I try that too. To a greater or lesser extent, I have little clue. Being original is rather difficult these days.
Oh, and my 40k fanfiction is about Imperial Guard mostly - and I get rather annoyed when Games Workshop go and fiddle with the background and interfere with my poor Espandor...
I don't know what the general consensus is, but my take on it is that they explained away some of the plotholes for the literal interpretation, but they left the ambiguity (as far as interpretation goes) intact.
Should have known this would happen when they said they were not going to be prescriptive.
IT is unaffacted, except for one thing that seems to reinforce IT.
Is it just me or did they use a new model for the beacon in London? One that has these curvy parts that we see in the breath scene? That's a big one for IT, IMO.
The controversy will never end though.
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 juin 2012 - 04:15 .
Arian Dynas wrote... I take cliches and give then a twist.
I try that too. To a greater or lesser extent, I have little clue. Being original is rather difficult these days.
Oh, and my 40k fanfiction is about Imperial Guard mostly - and I get rather annoyed when Games Workshop go and fiddle with the background and interfere with my poor Espandor...
I still miss the days when the Patron Saint of the Guard was merely a mortal man caught in a duel of Gods.
the reapers use their indoctrinated agents to erase any evidence of them being there, as Liara said in ME1, its as if someone went back and erased all evidence of what caused their extinction. also, the reapers leave a vanguard to make sure all is well, along with numerous artifacts (check Evolution, Arrival, side missions in ME1) so any evidence or warning of an invasion could easily be blocked. besides, how plausible is that? the council obviously saw it as ridiculous, what would the no-nonsense strict protheans think of one crackpot?
The Reapers cleanse clues not just of themselves but of a great deal of knowledge about the civilizations. Liara is an acclaimed Prothean scholar and she had no idea what kind of government they had, what religion they had, their interactions with other races, ect. In fact her dialogue in ME1 indicates that there wasn't enough left of pre-Prothean cycles to confirm this "cycle of extinction" even existed, it was just a hunch she had.
And it makes sense. If the Reapers left behind proof of the cycle, they wouldn't need to leave proof of themselves. The mere fact that new races could piece together "every 50,000 years something happens that wipes out all advanced life" would tell them. It's not a scooby-doo mystery. The time pattern is too regular for it to be a naturally occuring event. The only logical conclusion is that something terrible is hiding out there. They would certainly prepare. It's therefor in the Reapers' best interest to keep the previous cycle shrouded in mystery and the ones before that so obscure as to be mere speculation.
As for what the Protheans would think of one crackpot... they'd lay a single finger on him and realize the horrible truth.
God damn it guys why do you have to make like three dozen new pages every time I stop following the thread. Screw it, Wall O' Text inbound!
[quote]Silhouett3 wrote...
Sorry you aren't getting the point. IT could only born with the present narrative -symptoms of indoctrination , a manipulative Catalyst, Shep trusting a Reaper, two Reaper doctrine choices, violation of main themes etc etc- and it completely has been preserved in the EC. Which means both the reasons for IT to exists in the first place and the problems within the ending only IT could solve are still there.
Even if Bioware had not originally intended, they were aware of it during development of EC. Say you are right about EC, what is stopping Bioware from openly debunking IT right now?[/quote][quote]dreamgazer wrote...
As long as the catalyst takes on a visage pulled from Shepard's mind, the dreams (and other devices) have indoctrination symptom overtones, indoctrination is mentioned profusely in the narrative, and the control and synthesis endings have questionable moral roots as presented in the game, the interpretation could persist in one form or another.[/quote][quote]Ragnar Dragonfyre wrote...
Indoctrination Theory isn't just about Mass Effect 3, but the culmination of the 3 games combined. The only thing that protects Shepard against indoctrination is plot armor, period. He and his team have spent more time exposed to Reaper forces than anyone else in the galaxy. It's not outlandish that he, or any one of them could become indoctrinated. In the Codex it says that Indoctrination occurs "over days, perhaps a week of exposure". Considering the events of the series takes place over a course of 3 years (minus the year Shep was dead), Shepard has easily been exposed long enough to Reaper's to have been indoctrinated 100x over.
I might be going over some points already made, but I've compiled a list of suspicious events and inconsistencies that lend credence towards IT.
*snip*
And the one that keeps it alive above all else:
- Shepard lives in spite of what the StarChild says in high asset Destroy.
Until we get an answer about what happens to Shepard after he survives, IT is still in play.[/quote] Pretty much this. The idea of a dream sequence as the climax of the series is not tight anymore, but since Bioware actually changed what was presented such that the major plotholes that supported a dream sequence hyptohesis have been plugged, we don't really need it anymore. The dream sequence is not the heart of Indoc Theory. It's the idea that the climax of the series is a battle for Shepard's soul and the soul of the galaxy. EC does not outright confirm this. But it does not deny it.
In fact there are several new reinforcements for it now. The explicit difference between Shepard and the Reaper!Shepard. The implicit horror and propaganda of synthesis. And, as I've stated before but only a couple of guys seemed to notice, that Harbinger not shooting down the Normandy is likely not a plot hole, but a plot point. IT or not, it's obvious that the Catalyst, whatever it actually is, is out to manipulate Shepard in some fashion to achieve its own agenda. That it takes the form of the child from Shepard's nightmares is proof of that. So naturally destroying Shepard's ship, a vessel and crew with all the emotional attachement that implies, is not in the reapers'/Catalyst's best interests because they want Shepard to be sympathetic to them. They want Shepard to listen to the Catalyst. So destroying everything Shepard held most dear would be simply self-defeating.
Seriously guys it really is obvious.
[quote]Silhouett3 wrote...
[quote]paxxton wrote...
[quote]Silhouett3 wrote...
Embrace Perfection. We are Harbinger of your Ascendance. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. The pinnacle of evolution. We are the end of everything.[/quote] It's not the same. Harvesting organics liquifies them. Destroys them. In Synthesis it's more of symbiosis/mutual enhancement than subordination.[/quote] Harvesting doesn't destroy, what it destroys is the form. Not the main organic material, the DNA. Remember Mordin when he is talking about humans :
"..Ignore superficial appearance. Down to genetic code."
Processing and "saving" genetic material is what Reapers call Ascendance. Synthesis is not any different as it is all about a processed DNA. According to Reapers saving life is not about saving the "form" of organics but the material of organics. Organics are not aware of their material. Your mind is not aware of the cells in your body ( Legion's loyalty mission). We petty organics can only comprehend the form. Life is more than that. Supposedly Reapers can comprehend both. Therefore every Reaper you meet start and end the conversation with the "You don't understand me, you are a fool" line. Now how does EDI describe synthesis in the end?[/quote] About the whole harvesting organics thing, I used an analogy on a different thread for what reaper ascension entails. Say you take several thousand cars, strip them of parts and recycle those parts to make parts that match descriptions you found in a manual in how to make airplanes. You make that airplane. It looks like an airplane, it sounds like an airplane, it flies like an airplane. It was made from cars but it's a god damn air plane. The control ending confirms that what controled the reapers was not Shepard, just something made from Shepard. And it sounded like it had similar thought processes to the original reapers/Catalyst. Remember that it was reaper thinking that caused the central conflict of the Mass Effect series in the first place. Thinking that we've spent months tearing to shreds exposing how stupid and insane it was.
Reaper reproduction makes new reapers, not ascended manifestations of the species exterminated to make them.
As for synthesis. If it solves all conflict between all factions forever, alarm bells should be ringing. That would smell (and EDI's monologue does smell) like indoctrination propaganda is at work. If it doesn't solve conflicts between all factions, then you've just instigated a cataclysmic change on galactic civilization that many, many people will not take well. And when it was shown that the geth and EDI were capable of learning to both understand organics and not just peacefully, but advantageously coexist, that change seems completely unnecesary.
Also, remember what Legion about the difference between being given a future and making one? Exactly. F synthesis is its green, glowy udystopian arse.
[quote]paxxton wrote...
No one would reject Synthesis if they saw what it gives them, how it changes lives for the better.[/quote] You don't understand people do you. You see improvement. I see the theft of a chance to earn that improvement, and the chaos that theft will cause. Look no further than the krogan. Granted amazing gifts by the Salarians that they could have used to improve their lot, but instead wasted because they were too savage to figure out how or carry through with it.
[quote]Criddle wrote...
But another point... In the Control Ending, why does the Crucible even fire? Because if the endings are literal, the Starchild is controlling them, and he must have some way to give them orders, so it does not need the Crucible to fire, if Shepard just replaces the Starchild on the Citadel, and becomes the new Catalyst, so its likely that he stays on the Citadel and give the Reapers the orders just as Starchild did....[/quote] You got to upload the latest client update somehow I guess.
[quote]paxxton wrote...
Plus, why would he suddenly change his voice? He gets angry because Shepard rejected the attempted indoctrination.[/quote] Could be that. I don't think so however. Consider two hypothetical scenarios. Say the Catalyst is genuine in its intention about preventing the galaxy from being swallowed in galactic conflict. Then not only do we know why the Catalyst doesn't appear to get so angry (though still very negative) when discussing destroy (Destroy basically meaning allowing the current cycle to find a solution on their own), but also why it bursts out when Shepard rejects it. Better solutions for the current cycle were made available, and Shepard refused them.
On the other hand, if the Catalyst is not entirely genuine in its stated intent, then bursting out like that could mean one of several things. Could be a ploy to scare Shepard from chanign their mind and picking destroy. Could be Shepard breaking through its disguise (the outburst not being anger but just typical reaper bombast). Could be a genuine accidental or intentional emotional outburst (would fit with it immediately going back to the child voice for "the cycle continues"). Could be a combination of these three, or something else entirely.
What I'm sure though is that the refuse ending is still a failure state. Far less than control or synthesis in that it still leaves the reapers defeated, but only after the council cycle is rendered extinct. Mass Effects 1 and 2 showed that inaction can be just as bad as takign the wrong action. ME1 finale: save the council, let the council die, or just focus on Sovereign (the neutral option). Neutral is just as bad as leaving the council to die (remember that ME1's morality was still very much a typical good/evil dealie, and that saving the council nets you more war assets in 3.) Inaction in recruiting or securing the loyalty of your squad in Mass Effect 2 resulted in suboptimal outcomes. Not doing certain missions in Mass Effect 3 (such as defusing the Tuchanka bomb or entering the geth consensus) will automatically fail those missions and forfeit war assets and optimal story-arc outcomes.
So refuse ends with Shepard stuck on the Crucible, stuck with indecision, stuck in a dead-end. Hope exists for a future cycle, but Shepard still failed. Also the Catalyst may not be expressing anger when Shep marches towards destroy but we still don't know what's going on in its head. Could be paralyzing fear. Could be that it's working elsewhere desperately trying to stop or sabotage Shepard's attempt. Could be that it's actually resigned to its fate because nothing could stop Shepard now. Again, could be a combination, could be something else entirely.
The idea is still viable in the spectrum of interpretation, but temper your expectations.[/quote] Moderators =/= Developers. Just thought I'd point that out.[/quote] Quoted for truth. And Bioware themselves said a lot of things. Including how they weren't going to add any new endings (FALSE. Refute is a new ending. It's got the credits rolling.) They said they weren't going to change the endings. (FALSE. Citadel isn't asploded. Relays aren't asploded. Normandy isn't asploded. And that's just the most obvious stuff.) If there's anything we should have learned, is always to listen to everything, but trust nothing.
[quote]masster blaster wrote...
Oh crap remember what Hackett said to Shepard in the response of Shepard asking " why pick me"
Hackett says look you can pay a soldier to run down a hill but you can't pay them to believe.
I am going to try to find the video like so i can get my fact's straight but just think about it.[/quote] Good catch. That and Thane's prayer strike me as too potentially significant to be anything but significant.
[quote]TSA_383 wrote...
SO
Got an interesting message, someone pointing out that harbinger has extra lines in the low-ems destroy ending:
~2:05, sounds like "they can't help you" to me on first listen, and I swear he has a different line right before the blast too, it's got to be "join us"...
It's curious... That and shep's reaction to the squadmates getting vaporised.[/quote] "And now you stand alone, Shepard"
Welcome back Harby, we wondered where you were.
[quote]Dwailing wrote...
You know, I just had a thought that goes with the "Harbinger let the Normandy go so it would have leverage over Shepard so he wouldn't want to choose Destroy because of EDI Hypothesis" (That REALLY needs a shorter catchier name.). If Shepard had destroyed the Geth previously, then without EDI, Shepard would have absolutely NO reason to NOT destroy the Reapers. Harbinger would HAVE to let the Normandy go if he wanted Shepard to consider ANYTHING other than Destroy.[/quote] Normandy carries Joker also. And the LI. And friends. And allies. Not to mention that the Normandy was essentially home ever since Eden Prime.
Also, I don't want to sound like a ****** but I'm kinda miffed that Dwailing is the only guy who noticed my Leverage Hypothesis (that short enough). My posts too long to bother with or what?
[quote]EpyonX3 wrote...
I think she's asari because they can mate with anything and reproduce. They also live for a long enough time to repopulate. A few hold outs are enough to repopulate the galaxy. Memories are also passed down from generation to generation so the reapers are a fresh thought in their minds. Liara's capsule, which requires little decrypting helps tha cycle fight them off.[/quote] Check your facts. Rachni inherent memories from their ancestors, not asari. Come to think of it, I've no idea how an asari and a rachni would embrace eternity.
No one dare follow up on that question.
[quote]jgibson14352 wrote...
another question to all this, Legion very specifically states that the runtimes on the old machine (sovereign) referred to themselves as "Nazara" ive always thought that this name is the name of whatever species the ship is made of, for instance thered be reapers who referred to themselves as human, or prothean. but when the reaper talks to shepard on Rannoch, he refers to harbinger literally as harbinger. for shepards benfit? maybe, i dont know, its just another thing that adds to the mystery[/quote] Or the species really did call themselves Harbingers for some reason. Harbingers of what? When? Why? I dunno. But 'Geth' apparently means 'Servant of the People' in a quarian language so there is precedent for it.
Come to think of it, a DLC specifically focusing on Harbinger itself could have a lot of potential. Specifically for IT.
[quote]BleedingUranium wrote...
I support this fully, especially when the camera pans away from Shep standing in the Reject ending, it seems very... lonely? Abandoned? Kind just stuck in limbo as it were.
To me Reject is to Destroy what the standard Paragon option is to the Charm option. You're going make the same point, but much less convincing or awesomely, and it doesn't really work.[/quote] That is a brilliant way of putting it.
[quote]Jade8aby88 wrote...
Hey, this could be a new theory in which to see the IT. Because destroy is now more levelled out with others in terms of consequences..
Ending R = Morally ambiguous. G = Morally ambiguous. B = Morally ambiguous.
Refuse = Reapers Win. Refuse (successfully with IT DLC) = Galaxy Win.
Anyone see it happening like that? Maybe wiith that leviathan DLC?[/quote] The morality of the choices remained the exact same I think. It's only that control and synthesis were more obviously negative, and destroy was 'corrected' to fix the EDI surviving bug. Though naturally, hope still exists. Engage Project Lazarus 2!
Also, between tyranny, udystopia, and sacrificing two parties who admited they were ready and willing to be sacrificed if it meant an end to the reaper threat, the answer seems obvious to me.
The Extended Cut was created to satisfy the uproar of the fans. If indoctrination was indeed Bioware's plan from the beginning, you can bet it still is. Just a thought I had...
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