55528 réponses à ce sujet

[FellishBeast]

JezuzGumball wrote...

 I'm sure you all have seen this, but every time I see it, it stengthens my faith in IT.

I've come to terms that IT isn't the intended ending after EC, but seeing this again always makes me question the endings.


http://img.gawkerass...ng/original.png

This was confirmed fake a long time ago. Sorry. 

[HellishFiend]

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

 Apologies if you've discussed this before, but did you manage to work out what Harbinger says just before the beam?

To me it definitely sounds like "Serve us", but that could be because I was expecting to hear that. It could also be "Save us". Both of which would have interesting implications.

I hear "serve us" on that last bit, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. 

I was thinking it might explain:
1. why Harbinger doesn't shoot down the Normandy when it's right in front of him. - 
Killing all his friends would strengthen Sheps resolve to destroy the Reapers, not collaborate with them.

2. why he doesn't kill Shepard outright and just stuns him. - You obviously don't kill someone you want to serve you.

On the other hand I could make a case for "save us". The Reapers are like the Fal Cie in FF13. Superior AI that are trapped in their programming, but know that they're trapped and desperately want to be free, even if it means death. That would explain why the Catalyst gets angry if you reject all his choices, including destroy. Part of him wants to die.

I know I would if I was doomed to spend eternity as some hideous, gestalt entity composed of billions of murdered people. 

Problem is I just dont think I'd enjoy that whole "save us" twist... It would diminish the Reapers as an omnipresent evil force during subsequent playthroughs of the trilogy.

[JezuzGumball]

Oh thats a shame. I guess I'm just a:


http://i0.kym-cdn.co...oke_pokemon.gif





Did somebody just fabricate it for the **** n giggles?

[FellishBeast]

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

 Apologies if you've discussed this before, but did you manage to work out what Harbinger says just before the beam?

To me it definitely sounds like "Serve us", but that could be because I was expecting to hear that. It could also be "Save us". Both of which would have interesting implications.

I hear "serve us" on that last bit, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. 

I was thinking it might explain:
1. why Harbinger doesn't shoot down the Normandy when it's right in front of him. - 
Killing all his friends would strengthen Sheps resolve to destroy the Reapers, not collaborate with them.

2. why he doesn't kill Shepard outright and just stuns him. - You obviously don't kill someone you want to serve you.

On the other hand I could make a case for "save us". The Reapers are like the Fal Cie in FF13. Superior AI that are trapped in their programming, but know that they're trapped and desperately want to be free, even if it means death. That would explain why the Catalyst gets angry if you reject all his choices, including destroy. Part of him wants to die.

I know I would if I was doomed to spend eternity as some hideous, gestalt entity composed of billions of murdered people. 

Problem is I just dont think I'd enjoy that whole "save us" twist... It would diminish the Reapers as an omnipresent evil force during subsequent playthroughs of the trilogy.

I don't like the implications either, but it would match up with the literal endings.

We can go with "serve us" until all hope is lost.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

I take it the new Stargazer scene after Refuse has been discussed at length already? Looked it up after I heard about it but just got around to making one of my Shepards Refuse to see it hi-res. Really looks like an Asari talking to the hoody-wearing Child from the beginning/nightmares. As opposed to the other which looks like a human male talking to a miniaturized human male.

Were there any interesting bits I missed about it?

[HellishFiend]

FellishBeast wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Problem is I just dont think I'd enjoy that whole "save us" twist... It would diminish the Reapers as an omnipresent evil force during subsequent playthroughs of the trilogy.

I don't like the implications either, but it would match up with the literal endings.

We can go with "serve us" until all hope is lost.

It would cause me to react like this during any mention of the Reapers. 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

 Apologies if you've discussed this before, but did you manage to work out what Harbinger says just before the beam?

To me it definitely sounds like "Serve us", but that could be because I was expecting to hear that. It could also be "Save us". Both of which would have interesting implications.

I hear "serve us" on that last bit, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. 

I was thinking it might explain:
1. why Harbinger doesn't shoot down the Normandy when it's right in front of him. - 
Killing all his friends would strengthen Sheps resolve to destroy the Reapers, not collaborate with them.

2. why he doesn't kill Shepard outright and just stuns him. - You obviously don't kill someone you want to serve you.

On the other hand I could make a case for "save us". The Reapers are like the Fal Cie in FF13. Superior AI that are trapped in their programming, but know that they're trapped and desperately want to be free, even if it means death. That would explain why the Catalyst gets angry if you reject all his choices, including destroy. Part of him wants to die.

I know I would if I was doomed to spend eternity as some hideous, gestalt entity composed of billions of murdered people.

But that begs the question of what makes Harbinger able to say "save us." I mean if he had so much control over himself that he could do it all along why dident he do it while controlling a collector so we got a clear voice and intsead sprouted all the "we are your genetic detsiny thing?"

If Harbinger in ME2 at one point, even if just once had said "Save us" I would have been seriusly intrigued.

But "Serve us" just fits much better with everything he siad like. "Struggle as you will, you will be mine" (or something along those lines)

[Auralius Carolus]

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

 Apologies if you've discussed this before, but did you manage to work out what Harbinger says just before the beam?

To me it definitely sounds like "Serve us", but that could be because I was expecting to hear that. It could also be "Save us". Both of which would have interesting implications.

I hear "serve us" on that last bit, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. 

I was thinking it might explain:
1. why Harbinger doesn't shoot down the Normandy when it's right in front of him. - 
Killing all his friends would strengthen Sheps resolve to destroy the Reapers, not collaborate with them.

2. why he doesn't kill Shepard outright and just stuns him. - You obviously don't kill someone you want to serve you.

On the other hand I could make a case for "save us". The Reapers are like the Fal Cie in FF13. Superior AI that are trapped in their programming, but know that they're trapped and desperately want to be free, even if it means death. That would explain why the Catalyst gets angry if you reject all his choices, including destroy. Part of him wants to die.

I know I would if I was doomed to spend eternity as some hideous, gestalt entity composed of billions of murdered people. 

Problem is I just dont think I'd enjoy that whole "save us" twist... It would diminish the Reapers as an omnipresent evil force during subsequent playthroughs of the trilogy.

That, in itself- I believe- is one of the greatest sins in the given endings: the Reapers are downgraded from highly intellegent super demons to morally ambiguous whatsits. A truly sinister and clever enemy is far more rewarding that some mere pawn or animal acting on instinct; that's why I don't find fighting Reaper footsoldiers rewarding... except Banshees. I hate Banshees.


Skunk Ape agrees: Banshees are a pain in the butt.

[Eryri]

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

 Apologies if you've discussed this before, but did you manage to work out what Harbinger says just before the beam?

To me it definitely sounds like "Serve us", but that could be because I was expecting to hear that. It could also be "Save us". Both of which would have interesting implications.

I hear "serve us" on that last bit, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. 

I was thinking it might explain:
1. why Harbinger doesn't shoot down the Normandy when it's right in front of him. - 
Killing all his friends would strengthen Sheps resolve to destroy the Reapers, not collaborate with them.

2. why he doesn't kill Shepard outright and just stuns him. - You obviously don't kill someone you want to serve you.

On the other hand I could make a case for "save us". The Reapers are like the Fal Cie in FF13. Superior AI that are trapped in their programming, but know that they're trapped and desperately want to be free, even if it means death. That would explain why the Catalyst gets angry if you reject all his choices, including destroy. Part of him wants to die.

I know I would if I was doomed to spend eternity as some hideous, gestalt entity composed of billions of murdered people. 

Problem is I just dont think I'd enjoy that whole "save us" twist... It would diminish the Reapers as an omnipresent evil force during subsequent playthroughs of the trilogy.

Yes, it would have been better had they stayed Lovecraftian. But as we seem to be stuck with glow-boy now...

Plus this leaked Leviathan rebel-reaper content, and the Catalyst's "unwilling" first reaper implies that they may not be completely hunky dory with being robo-squid. If as Legion said at the end of ME2 - they really are "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined" - you might expect them to be a bit schizoid.

It might explain Sovereign and Harbinger's contempt for organics - "I'm stuck like this forever because you people can't be trusted to get along and not destroy yourselves".

Finally it might give rise (hopefully) to a fifth ending option - "Liberate" or "Unshackle" variation on refuse, where Shepard gets to free the reapers without synthesis (:sick:still hideously presented even with Tricia Helfer's excellent voice acting) and they immediately turn on the Catalyst / Harbinger.

[HellishFiend]

Auralius Carolus wrote...


That, in itself- I believe- is one of the greatest sins in the given endings: the Reapers are downgraded from highly intellegent super demons to morally ambiguous whatsits. A truly sinister and clever enemy is far more rewarding that some mere pawn or animal acting on instinct; that's why I don't find fighting Reaper footsoldiers rewarding... except Banshees. I hate Banshees.

Banshees dont count as a mere pawn or animal acting on instinct. They will pick you up and fondle you before jamming their hand through your torso. Damn Synthesis, you scary!

[Eryri]

Sorry - double post

Modifié par Eryri, 29 juin 2012 - 07:22 .

[Auralius Carolus]

Eryri wrote...
Yes, it would have been better had they stayed Lovecraftian. But as we seem to be stuck with glow-boy now...

Plus this leaked Leviathan rebel-reaper content, and the Catalyst's "unwilling" first reaper implies that they may not be completely hunky dory with being robo-squid. If as Legion said at the end of ME2 - they really are "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined" - you might expect them to be a bit schizoid.

It might explain Sovereign and Harbinger's contempt for organics - "I'm stuck like this forever because you people can't be trusted to get along and not destroy yourselves".

Finally it might give rise (hopefully) to a fifth ending option - "Liberate" or "Unshackle" variation on refuse, where Shepard gets to free the reapers without synthesis (:sick:still hideously presented even with Tricia Helfer's excellent voice acting) and they immediately turn on the Catalyst / Harbinger.

I doubt that is possible, without destroying them utterly. As to if there truly are organic spirits/consciousness throughout the Reaper body is hard to say. With the new Control, it appeared as if the "New Shepard" is but a AI transmutation of the old one. In other words, he's not really Shepard, but instead imbued with his morals and personality... like a software copy of Shepard's mind.

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

 Apologies if you've discussed this before, but did you manage to work out what Harbinger says just before the beam?

To me it definitely sounds like "Serve us", but that could be because I was expecting to hear that. It could also be "Save us". Both of which would have interesting implications.

I hear "serve us" on that last bit, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. 

I was thinking it might explain:
1. why Harbinger doesn't shoot down the Normandy when it's right in front of him. - 
Killing all his friends would strengthen Sheps resolve to destroy the Reapers, not collaborate with them.

2. why he doesn't kill Shepard outright and just stuns him. - You obviously don't kill someone you want to serve you.

On the other hand I could make a case for "save us". The Reapers are like the Fal Cie in FF13. Superior AI that are trapped in their programming, but know that they're trapped and desperately want to be free, even if it means death. That would explain why the Catalyst gets angry if you reject all his choices, including destroy. Part of him wants to die.

I know I would if I was doomed to spend eternity as some hideous, gestalt entity composed of billions of murdered people. 

Problem is I just dont think I'd enjoy that whole "save us" twist... It would diminish the Reapers as an omnipresent evil force during subsequent playthroughs of the trilogy.

Agreed. I'd rather BW not divulge too much more or facilitate the ultimate in mundane by removing the bone chilling effect of the Reaper threat. It is possible the; lets call them 'organic programs', inside are shackled and have no free will, thus cannot evolve or break away, but even if they could they would probably just suicide the Tech, killing the AI portion of the Reaper. However, I also believe that all organic goo programs were slow indoctrinated to adjust their way of thinking beforehand. It eliminated the possibility of internal revolt or conflict.

This also explains the patience of the Reapers when it comes to harvesting a cycle. In best case scenarios, it still takes them centuries. This cycle has them experiencing losses; probably more than the last 37 million years combined, so it is in their best interest to gain an upper hand by way of pacification to facilitate the construction of multiple Reapers from multiple species. I think the Crucible is a reaper womb. Have for months.

Just like Sanctuary is a Reaper goo facility, but was later used for a Reaper long con on Shep to put it in his/her head that control may be a viable option.

So, Reapers: Having an AI or single personality (digitized) in control, but using the processing power of billions of shackled organic gooey programs is always what I inferred the Reapers were. Legion and other evidence points to this throughout ME2 and 3. It is a consensus of sorts, but the programs are not interdependent and nor are they free. The Dyson sphere would have been a gestalt intellect of a collective, but each program would still have it's individuality and free will.

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...

Agreed. I'd rather BW not divulge too much more or facilitate the ultimate in mundane by removing the bone chilling effect of the Reaper threat. It is possible the; lets call them 'organic programs', inside are shackled and have no free will, thus cannot evolve or break away, but even if they could they would probably just suicide the Tech, killing the AI portion of the Reaper. However, I also believe that all organic goo programs were slow indoctrinated to adjust their way of thinking beforehand. It eliminated the possibility of internal revolt or conflict.

This also explains the patience of the Reapers when it comes to harvesting a cycle. In best case scenarios, it still takes them centuries. This cycle has them experiencing losses; probably more than the last 37 million years combined, so it is in their best interest to gain an upper hand by way of pacification to facilitate the construction of multiple Reapers from multiple species. I think the Crucible is a reaper womb. Have for months.

Just like Sanctuary is a Reaper goo facility, but was later used for a Reaper long con on Shep to put it in his/her head that control may be a viable option.

So, Reapers: Having an AI or single personality (digitized) in control, but using the processing power of billions of shackled organic gooey programs is always what I inferred the Reapers were. Legion and other evidence points to this throughout ME2 and 3. It is a consensus of sorts, but the programs are not interdependent and nor are they free. The Dyson sphere would have been a gestalt intellect of a collective, but each program would still have it's individuality and free will.

Well put. I'm not too sure about the Reaper womb idea, but the rest of it is very similar to what I think. 

[spotlessvoid]

Shepard's voice echoing during reject is so strange

Also, why did Bioware not show what happened to Shepard after choosing destroy? All the consequences of Shepard.choosing destroy are shown before the breath scene. All that happens before Shepard even wakes up?

[Auralius Carolus]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I take it the new Stargazer scene after Refuse has been discussed at length already? Looked it up after I heard about it but just got around to making one of my Shepards Refuse to see it hi-res. Really looks like an Asari talking to the hoody-wearing Child from the beginning/nightmares. As opposed to the other which looks like a human male talking to a miniaturized human male.

Were there any interesting bits I missed about it?

I haven't seen any. I would say that it is more than a little suspicious that the kid both appears to be and has the same voice actor as the Catalyst kid. That, to me, screams that the Reaper threat continues and only superficially is through; kind of like those movies when we think everything is resolved until the camera zooms in on a suspicious guy in sunglasses who gives a smile, only to have you realize that "he really isn't dead!"

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Agreed. I'd rather BW not divulge too much more or facilitate the ultimate in mundane by removing the bone chilling effect of the Reaper threat. It is possible the; lets call them 'organic programs', inside are shackled and have no free will, thus cannot evolve or break away, but even if they could they would probably just suicide the Tech, killing the AI portion of the Reaper. However, I also believe that all organic goo programs were slow indoctrinated to adjust their way of thinking beforehand. It eliminated the possibility of internal revolt or conflict.

This also explains the patience of the Reapers when it comes to harvesting a cycle. In best case scenarios, it still takes them centuries. This cycle has them experiencing losses; probably more than the last 37 million years combined, so it is in their best interest to gain an upper hand by way of pacification to facilitate the construction of multiple Reapers from multiple species. I think the Crucible is a reaper womb. Have for months.

Just like Sanctuary is a Reaper goo facility, but was later used for a Reaper long con on Shep to put it in his/her head that control may be a viable option.

So, Reapers: Having an AI or single personality (digitized) in control, but using the processing power of billions of shackled organic gooey programs is always what I inferred the Reapers were. Legion and other evidence points to this throughout ME2 and 3. It is a consensus of sorts, but the programs are not interdependent and nor are they free. The Dyson sphere would have been a gestalt intellect of a collective, but each program would still have it's individuality and free will.

Well put. I'm not too sure about the Reaper womb idea, but the rest of it is very similar to what I think. 

Fine: 'Ship Yard'

That better?

[Eryri]

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Agreed. I'd rather BW not divulge too much more or facilitate the ultimate in mundane by removing the bone chilling effect of the Reaper threat. It is possible the; lets call them 'organic programs', inside are shackled and have no free will, thus cannot evolve or break away, but even if they could they would probably just suicide the Tech, killing the AI portion of the Reaper. However, I also believe that all organic goo programs were slow indoctrinated to adjust their way of thinking beforehand. It eliminated the possibility of internal revolt or conflict.

This also explains the patience of the Reapers when it comes to harvesting a cycle. In best case scenarios, it still takes them centuries. This cycle has them experiencing losses; probably more than the last 37 million years combined, so it is in their best interest to gain an upper hand by way of pacification to facilitate the construction of multiple Reapers from multiple species. I think the Crucible is a reaper womb. Have for months.

Just like Sanctuary is a Reaper goo facility, but was later used for a Reaper long con on Shep to put it in his/her head that control may be a viable option.

So, Reapers: Having an AI or single personality (digitized) in control, but using the processing power of billions of shackled organic gooey programs is always what I inferred the Reapers were. Legion and other evidence points to this throughout ME2 and 3. It is a consensus of sorts, but the programs are not interdependent and nor are they free. The Dyson sphere would have been a gestalt intellect of a collective, but each program would still have it's individuality and free will.

Well put. I'm not too sure about the Reaper womb idea, but the rest of it is very similar to what I think. 

Thinking about it - you're both right. I think I would rather they were restored as evil master manipulators, with the possibile exception of this proto - reaper Leviathan.

However I would be really keen on using the intel gained from it to have a 5th option in the endings. One where I can stick it to that wretched luminescent brat, and save everyone in this cycle. Would be so satisfying to have a good, old-fashioned Good Guy triumphs over Evil, and gets the girl / boy / alien ending at this point.

[Salient Archer]

Tea time with Sovereign:

Showing self awareness and independent thought:

“You are not Saren.”

“Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.”

“There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even image it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.”

Speaking for the Reapers as a race

“We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.”

“Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are.”

“We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.”

“The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them - the legacy of my kind.”

“Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire.”

“My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.”

“We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.”

On the subject of organics

“Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die.”

“The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance, and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished.”

“We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.”

Taunting

“Confidence born of ignorance. The cycle cannot be broken.”

“Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over.”

“We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom.”

Sovereign through Saren:

“I am Sovereign. And this station is MINE!”

Modifié par Salient Archer, 29 juin 2012 - 07:52 .

[Auralius Carolus]

Turbo_J wrote...

So, Reapers: Having an AI or single personality (digitized) in control, but using the processing power of billions of shackled organic gooey programs is always what I inferred the Reapers were. Legion and other evidence points to this throughout ME2 and 3. It is a consensus of sorts, but the programs are not interdependent and nor are they free. The Dyson sphere would have been a gestalt intellect of a collective, but each program would still have it's individuality and free will.

That just flows with the Theory that "The Reapers" are a physical manifestation of Thomas Hobbes's Leviathan: One being, (or small council), is invested with the wills and rights of all citizens to transform him into The Sovereign. In accordance with their relinquishing of willpower and rights, the citizens become extensions of The Sovereign and, theoretically, many become one and one gains the power and authority of many. A nation, therefore, becomes one fluid entity- poetic in writing, but a nightmare in practice.

[BP20125810]

Dusen wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

It's possible, but I'm more inclined to believe that since we can probably assume that the Reapers already knew about the Crucible, that they allowed it to be built because it is actually something they can use. It seems probable that it's the the power source for the Citadel Relay back to darkspace, and they just prefer to make the organics waste resources building it rather than building it themselves. 

That's actually a pretty awesome idea that would have been great in the game.

Other than that though I guess I'll sign off as well, the bed is calling me. . .

Well, the catalyst said the reapers knew about it, but thought they had ended it a couple cycles back.  

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

My greatest problem with the new endings (beyond the fact that there is still gaping plotholes) is that Bioware still did not deliver on the Rachni promise.

The Rachni is the race i am most interested in learning more about of all the races in Mass Effect. They started out as beeing the generic intelligent dangerous giant insect race which ahd threatened the galaxy, but when you then meet the queen it becomes so much more. It is even hinted the Rachni were not even entirely responsible for the war as it is hinted the Reapers Indoctrinated them in some way.

Hearing her talk of "singing" and "color" simply fascinated me so deeply. It was so...alien...not saying Asari, Krogan, Turians and Salarians are not alien, but you could always apply some level of human thinking or idea to the,. The Racni Queen on the other hand was so not human in thought and looks, but without beeing evil. I wanted to know more, still want to.

So what we got is my greatest disapointment with ME3. We were promised a major event for the queen, but never got it. IT gave me new hope as to how that major event could be handled (and still can I guess) but...yeah. '

Do the Rachni even have a slide in any of the endings? Cant remember at the moment.

I just hope we learn more of them in the future.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 29 juin 2012 - 07:50 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Salient Archer wrote...

Tea time with Sovereign:

*Snip*

The catalyst also begs the question why they even needed Sovereign. Couldnt the Catalyst have opened the relay or something? I mean we see him shut of the Crucible beam in the Rejection ending so clearly he has some control of the station...

[Starbuck8]

Salient Archer wrote...

Tea time with Sovereign:
*snip*

What we know of the reapers from Sovereign in ME1 is not even close to what we get from the Catalyst in ME3. Doens't match up, at all...

Modifié par Starbuck8, 29 juin 2012 - 08:00 .

[Salient Archer]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Tea time with Sovereign:

*Snip*

The catalyst also begs the question why they even needed Sovereign. Couldnt the Catalyst have opened the relay or something? I mean we see him shut of the Crucible beam in the Rejection ending so clearly he has some control of the station...

Well considering the Catalyst says "The Citadel is part of me" you would think he'd have some level of control over himself, you know, unless he was full of crap...