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[Carmin_Steele]

Thank you Archer.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Fine: 'Ship Yard'

That better?

Hmmmmmm... That's gotten me thinking. What is one of the big mysteries about the Reapers, that was expounded during both ME1 and ME2? Their power source. The Protheans thought they retreated to Dark Space to hybernate, safely, and conserve power. And, likewise, all of their devices: The Citadel, the Relays- no one knows how they stay powered.

And what is the Crucible? A massive power source that is intended to dish out a HUGE amount of energy, utilizing both the Citadel and the Relays and is intended to affect all of the Reapers. And what really pisses off the Star Child? Refusing to use it... while the Reapers suspiciously ignore it and oddly failed to stop it over millions of years.

What if that thing really was left, intentionally, by the Reapers? Not as a weapon, but as a massive generator of some sorts, that would allow them to continue their centuries-long harvesting without stop, while also recharging their heirlooms for the next cycle? One final test and trap...

Just a little creative thinking, but it is a thought...

Had a similar idea myself that the Crucible was the power source needed to activate the Citadel Relay. We see themassive elemnt zero core on all relays except the Citadel one which i always found odd even more so taht no one ever realized the Citadel was a relay.

So my idea is taht the Crucible is what turns the Citadel into a realy. Without the Crucible it can still act as the target for whatever relay is in dark space, but it needs the Crucible to send the Reapers back.

That way the Citadel Relay is hidden even better and the Reapers can have the races waste ressources buidling something which only benefits the Reapers.

My idea (build upon another idea called the Dark Space Theory which was not mine) on that is that with the Reaper IFF we coudl head through the Citadel relay as it activated and do...something in the other end.

This seems more elaborate and certainly interesting. The idea of the Crucible not beeing just teh Citadel power source, but also the Reapers and Relays is nice, but i dont think the Reapers owuld be stopped just by refusing to use it.

I mean if they are using it they know of the plans and could construct the Crucible themselves. It would be asetbakc if the races of the cycle did not build it, but not a knockout.

[Auralius Carolus]

FellishBeast wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Fine: 'Ship Yard'

That better?

Hmmmmmm... That's gotten me thinking. What is one of the big mysteries about the Reapers, that was expounded during both ME1 and ME2? Their power source. The Protheans thought they retreated to Dark Space to hybernate, safely, and conserve power. And, likewise, all of their devices: The Citadel, the Relays- no one knows how they stay powered.

And what is the Crucible? A massive power source that is intended to dish out a HUGE amount of energy, utilizing both the Citadel and the Relays and is intended to affect all of the Reapers. And what really pisses off the Star Child? Refusing to use it... while the Reapers suspiciously ignore it and oddly failed to stop it over millions of years.

What if that thing really was left, intentionally, by the Reapers? Not as a weapon, but as a massive generator of some sorts, that would allow them to continue their centuries-long harvesting without stop, while also recharging their heirlooms for the next cycle? One final test and trap...



Just a little creative thinking, but it is a thought...

...

OOOH I LIKE THAT ONE! :happy:

Yeah, that's an interesting idea.

Oh wow...I skipped over that a few times and just now read it. Wow. That's sort of mind-blowing. I'm sure there are flaws in the idea, but the premise makes a lot of sense. That would...wow. Great going!

That's just a Gen. 1 observation, sans any form of refinement. Hmm, I wonder if anyone else has noticed that connection? While it could be entirely inaccurate- as the whole "Dark Energy" thing is thought to power them- there will be a nasty surprise should a troll try and plagiarize it.

And then there's the consideration of minerals and other elements in the galaxy, and how they somehow replenish over the cycles... hrm.

[Starbuck8]

Carmin_Steele wrote...

(IT Believer, have been since day 1, however, I haven't posted here except once about 50 pages back, so HI!)

Sovereign was SO much cooler than anything else. That one conversation is totally awesome.

Now, other things that have been touched on today that I've wanted to comment on. The idea of Refusal being 'giving up' vs 'Destroy' and the 'Shepard's Breath' thing.

I'm in the camp that Refusal is the best ending. Shepard's speech and resolve is strong, strong enough s/he overcomes the injuries and stands up defiant. Why don't we see the Breathe Scene? It doesn't show Shepard get injured or die, it fades to black and plays Liara's time capsule. There is no death scene or an explosion that insinuates a death, ergo no need for the Breath. I think there is more coming, especially with the hints involved in the Leviathan DLC leak.... More DLC to fill in and show why Rejection is the best. 'I will not let Fear change who I am!"

Why do we get the Breath Scene in Destroy? That I'm not 100% on really, I have mixed feelings in that .1) I see it as the 'suicide' option similar to TIM and Saren. The only way to win is to shoot that tube, which can probably kill me. Similar to the how TIM and Saren are so far under the only way they can see escaping the influence is the destroy thier plans... so, Shepard dies. 2) Shepard is acknowledging the brat's logic and still using their methods to kill them, making me see it as somewhat tainted.

But the Breath! Well.. that idea of the resuscitation device from when Shep crashes into the Citdel? That's the only thing I can come up with to back-up my idea. Shep thinks the Reapers are dead and the Reapers expect Shep to be dead, but the implants kick Shep back to life.

The Crucible being the generator that keeps the Relays and the Reapers running is an -excellent- idea IMO, and it makes sense on why the brat becomes angry if you refuse to use it, as you're denying them the work you've but in for the power source they want to use. I can't help but see it as a trap of some sort.

Nice. We are still coming to terms on what Refusal ending represents. But I am leaning toward a similar line of thinking. I'm also very curious what the DLC will contribute...

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

This is not explained. The use of an entire Reaper for observation and signaling, instead of remote surveying and signaling is... odd.

The Rachni Wars probably offer an explanation.

The Vanguard not only watches the progress of civilization, he also guides it and intervennes if a race is moving down a path not in favor of the Reapers plans.

In this case that race coudl have been the Rachni. We know the Rachni uses powerful acids cpabale of overcoming most forms of shielding and beeing highly corrosive. If the Racni used that natural weapon as the basis for their ship based weapons it could have become a dangerous enemy to the Reapers, one cpaable of inflicting significant casualties.

As such Sovereign orchestrated the Rachni wars through Indoctrination to have the Rachni wiped out.

[Carmin_Steele]

The Crucible fires Dark Energy. The whole Conrad Verner thing, the capacitors and such mentioned throughout ME3 give credence to the idea.


Edit: The Rachni have been around and used as a Reaper tool for -at least- two cycles already. Javik tells us the Protheans believed to have wiped them out, much how the Council races believed the same.

Modifié par Carmin_Steele, 29 juin 2012 - 08:56 .

[Arian Dynas]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

I'm currently in the camp that says "Destroy is Shepard sticking to his guns and choosing to slog on with what was his original motive from the beginning, since he has the stones to keep fighting, even if he has to sacrifice some things."

Rejection, well that's Shepard trying to play Captain Kirk, choosing not to stick to what he has been going for since the beginning since something unappealing was tacked on, but not completely breaking and going over to Control and remaining canny enough not to be tricked by Synthesis, basically demanding a third option, only to discover there isn't one.

In "Reject" Shepard is canny and wise enough not to fall for indoctrination, but not determined enough to break free, and so Harbinger kills him.

I support this fully, especially when the camera pans away from Shep standing in the Reject ending, it seems very... lonely? Abandoned? Kind just stuck in limbo as it were.

To me Reject is to Destroy what the standard Paragon option is to the Charm option. You're going make the same point, but much less convincing or awesomely, and it doesn't really work.

This remains my personal take on the subject of "Refuse"

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 29 juin 2012 - 08:55 .

[Rifneno]

plfranke wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. You know what's interesting? Harbinger refers to itself as a gestalt intelligence. "We are Harbinger." Sovereign refers to itself a singular intelligence. "I am the vanguard of your destruction." Not just those two sentences either, it's a pattern. With both of them.

The problem is that Harbinger switches in between I and we. As does the catalyst. Examples from Harbinger "We are Harbinger" "MY attacks will tear you apart" "I will direct this personally" Examples from the catalyst "The Reapers are MINE. I control them." "But WE found a way to stop that from happening."

Opps, you're right. I forgot about those. My bad. I guess Harby just has some kind of identity issues. ... My money's on gender identity issues. Harby strikes me as the "woman trapped in a man's body" kind.

Starbuck8 wrote...

Lol yeah, it sounded so wrong when I wrote it, I had to leave it

Yeah, we had some fun with that kind of pun a month or two ago. People were speculating that maybe the beam doesn't lead into the Citadel, maybe it leads into Harbinger to become indoctrinated. I could just picture Harbinger mowing down all those red shirts trying to make it to the beam with Shepard and thinking, "No! None of you are worthy! I only want Shepard inside of me!"

... Boy, I'm really ripping into poor Harby today aren't I.

Salient Archer wrote...

I like you. You need to post more often.

Agreed. That was an excellent post.

As for refusal, yeah, we're still... well when the literalists ask us about it, we just do our best Legion impression and say "We are currently building consensus. Please ask again later."

[Auralius Carolus]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Had a similar idea myself that the Crucible was the power source needed to activate the Citadel Relay. We see themassive elemnt zero core on all relays except the Citadel one which i always found odd even more so taht no one ever realized the Citadel was a relay.

So my idea is taht the Crucible is what turns the Citadel into a realy. Without the Crucible it can still act as the target for whatever relay is in dark space, but it needs the Crucible to send the Reapers back.

That way the Citadel Relay is hidden even better and the Reapers can have the races waste ressources buidling something which only benefits the Reapers.

My idea (build upon another idea called the Dark Space Theory which was not mine) on that is that with the Reaper IFF we coudl head through the Citadel relay as it activated and do...something in the other end.

This seems more elaborate and certainly interesting. The idea of the Crucible not beeing just teh Citadel power source, but also the Reapers and Relays is nice, but i dont think the Reapers owuld be stopped just by refusing to use it.

I mean if they are using it they know of the plans and could construct the Crucible themselves. It would be asetbakc if the races of the cycle did not build it, but not a knockout.

Im thinking that Relays, at least as they are known, fuction in two ways: as a mass accelorator, and as a constant mass reducer. Therefore, there needs to be both a beginning and an end at all times to maintain a massless field in between.

But the more I think of it... the more I can't help but feel the thing is a trap; a nail in this cycle's own coffin. It certainly isn't necessary for us to build it, but it would be brutally ironic... especially if it were to be used to power the station into a Reaper construction device, kind of like the Star Forge in KOTOR but more morbid.

[Arian Dynas]

The really interesting thing about it?

Harbinger refers to itself as BOTH.

He alternatively uses "I am the harbinger of your ascension"

As well as "We are Harbinger."

Lends credence to the idea that a Reaper is a gestalt intellect controlled by a single personality.

[plfranke]

Guys I thought this was interesting. In the extended cut if you pick the upper right options with the catalyst after he's done talking to you about control and synthesis you give the same responses shepard would give in the first endings for control "but the reapers will obey me" and synthesis "I... don't know." with destroy however, no matter what you pick upper right or upper left Shepard says "there has to be another way" where as before he would say "maybe" in response to the fat kid's assertion that our children would invent synthetics and the cycle would begin again

[Arian Dynas]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Had a similar idea myself that the Crucible was the power source needed to activate the Citadel Relay. We see themassive elemnt zero core on all relays except the Citadel one which i always found odd even more so taht no one ever realized the Citadel was a relay.

So my idea is taht the Crucible is what turns the Citadel into a realy. Without the Crucible it can still act as the target for whatever relay is in dark space, but it needs the Crucible to send the Reapers back.

That way the Citadel Relay is hidden even better and the Reapers can have the races waste ressources buidling something which only benefits the Reapers.

My idea (build upon another idea called the Dark Space Theory which was not mine) on that is that with the Reaper IFF we coudl head through the Citadel relay as it activated and do...something in the other end.

This seems more elaborate and certainly interesting. The idea of the Crucible not beeing just teh Citadel power source, but also the Reapers and Relays is nice, but i dont think the Reapers owuld be stopped just by refusing to use it.

I mean if they are using it they know of the plans and could construct the Crucible themselves. It would be asetbakc if the races of the cycle did not build it, but not a knockout.

Im thinking that Relays, at least as they are known, fuction in two ways: as a mass accelorator, and as a constant mass reducer. Therefore, there needs to be both a beginning and an end at all times to maintain a massless field in between.

But the more I think of it... the more I can't help but feel the thing is a trap; a nail in this cycle's own coffin. It certainly isn't necessary for us to build it, but it would be brutally ironic... especially if it were to be used to power the station into a Reaper construction device, kind of like the Star Forge in KOTOR but more morbid.

That's it.

That's the answer, the Crucible is meant to start up and power the mass Relay built into the Citadel, which also acts as an energy source for the Reapers themselves, the Crucible is destroyed every cycle, while the Citadel remains constant.

The Crucible is not a superweapon of any kind.

But that doesn't stop it from being made into one.

That is the storyline soloution, we need to hotwire the Crucible, disable the "requires another endpoint to fire" bit and voila.

One gigantic mass accelerator cannon.

A convention superweapon of thus far unprecedented size.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 29 juin 2012 - 09:04 .

[Auralius Carolus]

Carmin_Steele wrote...

The Crucible fires Dark Energy. The whole Conrad Verner thing, the capacitors and such mentioned throughout ME3 give credence to the idea.


Edit: The Rachni have been around and used as a Reaper tool for -at least- two cycles already. Javik tells us the Protheans believed to have wiped them out, much how the Council races believed the same.

Hmm, well then... that increases the likelihood of a connection there to the Reaper's power sources, as they seem to have a dark energy power core, along with most of their artifacts.

And Haestrom's star was aging because of, apparently, overexposure to it. Likewise, if memory serves, the relays keep reserves of it hidden...

[Carmin_Steele]

But hidden where?

[Rifneno]

Arian Dynas wrote...

That's it.

That's the answer, the Crucible is meant to start up and power the mass Relay built into the Citadel, which also acts as an energy source for the Reapers themselves, the Crucible is destroyed every cycle, while the Citadel remains constant.

The Crucible is not a superweapon of any kind.

But that doesn't stop it from being made into one.

That is the storyline soloution, we need to hotwire the Crucible, disable the "requires another endpoint to fire" bit and voila.

One gigantic mass accelerator cannon.

A convention superweapon of thus far unprecedented size.

Kamakazi ships at FTL > All.

...  All.

[Auralius Carolus]

Arian Dynas wrote...

That's it.

That's the answer, the Crucible is meant to start up and power the mass Relay built into the Citadel, which also acts as an energy source for the Reapers themselves, the Crucible is destroyed every cycle, while the Citadel remains constant.

The Crucible is not a superweapon of any kind.

But that doesn't stop it from being made into one.

That is the storyline soloution, we need to hotwire the Crucible, disable the "requires another endpoint to fire" bit and voila.

One gigantic mass accelerator cannon.

A convention superweapon of thus far unprecedented size.

Turn the Citadel into a Death Starfish? That's a lot of Jerry Rigging.

But regardless if being used as a weapon or energy source, I think we may have a breakthrough here: the connection between Reaper and Crucible? Dark Energy.

[FellishBeast]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

This is not explained. The use of an entire Reaper for observation and signaling, instead of remote surveying and signaling is... odd.

The Rachni Wars probably offer an explanation.

The Vanguard not only watches the progress of civilization, he also guides it and intervennes if a race is moving down a path not in favor of the Reapers plans.

In this case that race coudl have been the Rachni. We know the Rachni uses powerful acids cpabale of overcoming most forms of shielding and beeing highly corrosive. If the Racni used that natural weapon as the basis for their ship based weapons it could have become a dangerous enemy to the Reapers, one cpaable of inflicting significant casualties.

As such Sovereign orchestrated the Rachni wars through Indoctrination to have the Rachni wiped out.

I don't think having the Rachni wiped out was Sovereign's intention. I believe the Rachni Wars were his first attempt at retaking the Citadel, and when that failed he moved on to Saren. Something we need to remember is that the Reapers were very late this cycle, because of the Protheans' sabotage.

[Auralius Carolus]

Carmin_Steele wrote...

But hidden where?

I'd have to go back and check the audio logs in Arrival.

Hmm, just checked the Wiki to save me some time: The Alpha Relay was stated to use Dark Energy to power it, (so, presumable, all would), but kept backup reserves and hidden signal switches which enabled it to multiply it's range. Presumabley, as they are "Reserves", the strain from such use would burn through it, meaning that the dark energy current was not constant, but needed refilling.

Modifié par Auralius Carolus, 29 juin 2012 - 09:20 .

[FellishBeast]

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

That's it.

That's the answer, the Crucible is meant to start up and power the mass Relay built into the Citadel, which also acts as an energy source for the Reapers themselves, the Crucible is destroyed every cycle, while the Citadel remains constant.

The Crucible is not a superweapon of any kind.

But that doesn't stop it from being made into one.

That is the storyline soloution, we need to hotwire the Crucible, disable the "requires another endpoint to fire" bit and voila.

One gigantic mass accelerator cannon.

A convention superweapon of thus far unprecedented size.

Kamakazi ships at FTL > All.

...  All.

That's almost as lame as flying eagles to Mount Doom.

[Arian Dynas]

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

That's it.

That's the answer, the Crucible is meant to start up and power the mass Relay built into the Citadel, which also acts as an energy source for the Reapers themselves, the Crucible is destroyed every cycle, while the Citadel remains constant.

The Crucible is not a superweapon of any kind.

But that doesn't stop it from being made into one.

That is the storyline soloution, we need to hotwire the Crucible, disable the "requires another endpoint to fire" bit and voila.

One gigantic mass accelerator cannon.

A convention superweapon of thus far unprecedented size.

Kamakazi ships at FTL > All.

...  All.

That's EXACTLY what it is, what would it use as ammunition? Asteroids, ships, debris, whatever's on hand at the time.

Shattering the Reapers with their own armada.

The explanation of course being "Hey, you wanna put in that safety feature that makes it so it doesn't power up if something is in the way?

"Nah, we're the only ones who'll ever use it."

Using a mass relay as a weapon, other than a bomb.

[HellishFiend]

 So... I got bored and made this. 

...yeah. 

[Carmin_Steele]

If I'm not mistaken, TIM tells you in ME2 that when checking the trench on Klendagon for either the target or the weapon that caused the Rift, his teams found both. The Derelict Reaper and the Mass Accellerator Cannon that fired it... it can't be the Crucible from a previous cycle, unfortunately.

[Auralius Carolus]

Carmin_Steele wrote...

If I'm not mistaken, TIM tells you in ME2 that when checking the trench on Klendagon for either the target or the weapon that caused the Rift, his teams found both. The Derelict Reaper and the Mass Accellerator Cannon that fired it... it can't be the Crucible from a previous cycle, unfortunately.

This is what I originally thought the Ace in the Hole would be for ME3... that they would follow the trajectory of the weapon and recreate it. Oh well.

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

 So... I got bored and made this. 

...yeah. 

Idle hands are the Devil's workshop, and well, Hellish IS in your name...

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

 So... I got bored and made this. 

...yeah. 

Idle hands are the Devil's workshop, and well, Hellish IS in your name...