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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#34326
insomniak9

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I was thinking about what that sound could be, and I had a thought (Actually, this might have been the FIRST thought I had when I heard it.). It sounds kind of like a defibrillator. Now, we've not seen ANYTHING to suggest that Shepard's armor or implants contain one of these, so what I was thinking was maybe it's the ground forces in the real world trying to revive him.


That actually makes a lot of sense given how things from that point on are when the memories from past events/places seem to start influencing everything. Combine that with the way the electrical currents further down the hall way sound like gunfire and you could really be on to something.


Makes the breath scene completely illogical then


Care to explain?

#34327
SubAstris

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild is a liar. Period


Explain

#34328
Andromidius

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insomniak9 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Also its possible that Shepard is slowly 'learning' Reaper language - the same thing happened to TIM when he was exposed to a Reaper device.  Which would explain why Shepard can 'understand' some of what Harbinger is garbling about.


Shep has quite an in-depth conversation with Soverign, and the Rannoch-Reaper. 

I think it's safe to assume she can already understand Reaper.


What I mean is, Shep undestands Reaper language now.  Before I think they were using a common language that the translators could understand - also explains why their voices are more audible, and why Sovereign and Harbinger had accents more akin to an organic talking.  The Destroyer on Rannoch...  I'm not so clear on, could be 'english' or it could be Reaper - might also explain why Tali doesn't seem to react to the conversation and just thinks Shepard is shouting at a dying Reaper.

#34329
Xavendithas

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I was thinking about what that sound could be, and I had a thought (Actually, this might have been the FIRST thought I had when I heard it.). It sounds kind of like a defibrillator. Now, we've not seen ANYTHING to suggest that Shepard's armor or implants contain one of these, so what I was thinking was maybe it's the ground forces in the real world trying to revive him.


That actually makes a lot of sense given how things from that point on are when the memories from past events/places seem to start influencing everything. Combine that with the way the electrical currents further down the hall way sound like gunfire and you could really be on to something.


Makes the breath scene completely illogical then


Not at all. If there is a small force of soldiers protecting Shepard on the ground, trying to revive him/her, there is nothing to say that the force survives. If Shepard is in something resembling a comatose state while the indoctrination attempt is taking place, he could still wake up after having resisted Starbinger.

It's all speculation and theorizing, but it certainly doesn't render the breath scene illogical.

#34330
Andromidius

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Xavendithas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I was thinking about what that sound could be, and I had a thought (Actually, this might have been the FIRST thought I had when I heard it.). It sounds kind of like a defibrillator. Now, we've not seen ANYTHING to suggest that Shepard's armor or implants contain one of these, so what I was thinking was maybe it's the ground forces in the real world trying to revive him.


That actually makes a lot of sense given how things from that point on are when the memories from past events/places seem to start influencing everything. Combine that with the way the electrical currents further down the hall way sound like gunfire and you could really be on to something.


Makes the breath scene completely illogical then


Not at all. If there is a small force of soldiers protecting Shepard on the ground, trying to revive him/her, there is nothing to say that the force survives. If Shepard is in something resembling a comatose state while the indoctrination attempt is taking place, he could still wake up after having resisted Starbinger.

It's all speculation and theorizing, but it certainly doesn't render the breath scene illogical.


I think what he means is that if we go that route, then Shepard shouldn't be laying in rubble all alone.  Shep should be in a field hospital, or at least have someone there trying to revive him/her.

#34331
Deputy Secretary of Awesome

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Ok, so I'm tentatively returning to the IT thread after playing through the EC with my second character today and choosing Control. I have a lot to catch up on here, but let me just relay my own thoughts and experience first.

With this character, I had played through ME3 completely expecting IT for the EC, and wanted it to have a game where Shep fell for the Indoctrination, because I was sure that if the EC expanded on IT like I had hoped, then the indoctrination choices would not be critical mission failures, but would continue with an indoctrinated Shep.

Anyway, when I first played through the EC with my main Shep, I saw the changes to the ending sequence with the crew evac and the epilogues, and I thought "ok, IT is hollowed out, Bioware's made its choice". Needless to say I was disappointed. I chose Destroy, saw the breath scene still in there, but essentially worked into the epilogue with the crew memorial. Again, I assumed, this was shutting down IT.

But after playing it today and watching the Control ending, I'm beginning to rethink it.

Do I think that Bioware is going to give us any more content on Indoctrination? No. That is what I thought the EC was going to be, and they have decided against it. I do not see them ever addressing IT again, in game or publically.

However, I am rethinking that the EC can in fact coexist with an Indoctrination Theory interpretation of it. I'm guessing you guys are all way ahead of me on this, but the changes in the EC don't fully discount IT. Sticking with the idea that everything after the Harbinger beam is an indoctrination attempt, then there is only one element which has changed; the crew evac.

Now, the missing crew and their later appearance on dream planet in the EC was as continuity error as continuity errors get, and solid evidence for IT. The evacuation scene changes that evidence, after the fact, in order to have the literal ending make some degree of sense. However, it does not necessarily discount IT.

In this version, Shep has his crew evacuated, and is then hit by the beam. When he wakes up, he is then obviously not looking for his comrades or thinking about where they have gone, because he knows they've been taken onto the Normandy. In the original version, this was just weird, because we had no idea what happened to them. However, if going by classic IT, everything post-beam is still and Indoctrination attempt, then everything that still transpires - including the choices and the extensive epilogues, can be said to be part of the indoctrination hallucination that Shep is imagining; seeing the galaxy as he imagines it to be had he taken that choice, just like how a dream operates.

The LI or someone else hesitating to place Shep's name on the memorial doesn't have to be taken as literally happening, but rather symbollically within Shepard's mind, because there is that glimmer of hope that Shep is still alive and awaking, which happens immediately afterwards in the breath scene.

The breath scene is still an issue; is it on London? The Citadel? Can it still accomodate Indoctrination Theory? If it can, then IT is still a completel valid interpretation, because there is still an extremely solid case for it, even coexisting with the new more literal friendly EC ending.

Thus, to cut a long story short, my hope has been rekindled... It isn't what I wanted, but for now, it's enough.

#34332
Xavendithas

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Andromidius wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I was thinking about what that sound could be, and I had a thought (Actually, this might have been the FIRST thought I had when I heard it.). It sounds kind of like a defibrillator. Now, we've not seen ANYTHING to suggest that Shepard's armor or implants contain one of these, so what I was thinking was maybe it's the ground forces in the real world trying to revive him.


That actually makes a lot of sense given how things from that point on are when the memories from past events/places seem to start influencing everything. Combine that with the way the electrical currents further down the hall way sound like gunfire and you could really be on to something.


Makes the breath scene completely illogical then


Not at all. If there is a small force of soldiers protecting Shepard on the ground, trying to revive him/her, there is nothing to say that the force survives. If Shepard is in something resembling a comatose state while the indoctrination attempt is taking place, he could still wake up after having resisted Starbinger.

It's all speculation and theorizing, but it certainly doesn't render the breath scene illogical.


I think what he means is that if we go that route, then Shepard shouldn't be laying in rubble all alone.  Shep should be in a field hospital, or at least have someone there trying to revive him/her.


It could just as easily be a group of soldiers that saw Shepard get blasted and are attempting to protect him/revive him while waiting for an evac. The breath scene does a very good job of obscuring nearly everything around him. All you can see with certainty are a bunch of cables, some rubble, what is supposed to be Shepard and that reaper architecture in the background.

#34333
Guest_magnetite_*

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Something I threw in just for fun. Added Harbinger's voice to the video.

Control ending w/Harbinger voice (starts at 0:16)

#34334
MegumiAzusa

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TJBartlemus wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

Hey guys,i need to ask something that me support,that the starkid is lying.
Was there a paragon interupt when talking to the reaper on ranoch?


Uh, yes.  Shepard basically says something to the effect of this, "Whatever race you came from, they're dead.  They died a long time ago.  And now they can rest in peace."


WHAT?? They added a paragon interrupt??? How did I miss that?? :o

No, that would have to be there for some time...
the places the EC changes stuff:
End001_900/_910/_920 , this is after the APC ride up to beaming up
End002_100, opening
End002_300, TIM conflict
End002_400, Guardian
End002_500, final choice
(numerous stuff after the choice, obviously)
Nor_204, (Normandy Deck 2, Room 4) Call Hackett
Nor_405, (Normandy Deck 4, Room 5) Engineering
Nor_600, (Normandy Deck 6, Dreams) before the attack on the Cerberus HQ

#34335
mrcanada

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magnetite wrote...

Something I threw in just for fun. Added Harbinger's voice to the video.

Control ending w/Harbinger voice (starts at 0:16)


The quote fits.

#34336
SixG90

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 Off topic here, but 
 http://my.deviantart...sages/#/d54uyzn
THIS^ is my head canon, lol! :D

#34337
CyberMiguel

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Besides, another proof of IT would be the Leviathan DLC.

Why?

Simple: it's supposedly about a rogue reaper. If the catalyst control all the reapers...how can it be a rogue one? The sole concept of a rogue reaper invalidates the control ending and proofs (again) that the starbrat is blatantly lying.

#34338
mrcanada

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CyberMiguel wrote...

Besides, another proof of IT would be the Leviathan DLC.

Why?

Simple: it's supposedly about a rogue reaper. If the catalyst control all the reapers...how can it be a rogue one? The sole concept of a rogue reaper invalidates the control ending and proofs (again) that the starbrat is blatantly lying.


Poor writing, a story for stories sake etc.  If BW has shown anything, it's that they are willing to live with gaping plot holes to fit what they want.  Starchild is what they want and they endins are what they want, period.  It sucks and I hate it, but that is the way it is.

#34339
masster blaster

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Guys it's like I said in the last page the only reason there is even a breath scene it's because the war assets are holding the reapers off and Harbinger off so Shepard can wake up. Did any of us ever thought the reason why the catalyst ever leaves early because it's going to go kill Shepard before Shepard wakes up.

Also when you stop and think for a sec. In the new EC Shepard can refuse the Indcotrination bd the catalyst goes into a reaper voices that has both Shepard's voice the childs voices and Harbingers voices appifled so that some people may think it's just a reaper.

And it also makes sense with the breath scene after the epilogue because Shepard is starting to feel that he/she is alive, and that all because of the war assets we have collected because it's bying time for Shepard to wake up.and could explain why it took so much in the original content ending in which Shepard can wake up after you unlock Synthesis, which is funny because you would think that it would be the best ending if it would be unlocked after you unlock the breath scene.

And finaly we get to the part were the god child lies to Shepard about EDI and the geth dying because if Shepard did survive the destroy ending you bet your a.. that they also did to because If the endings are Inoctrination attemptes then every thing we see is wrong.

#34340
MegumiAzusa

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

Hey guys,i need to ask something that me support,that the starkid is lying.
Was there a paragon interupt when talking to the reaper on ranoch?


Uh, yes.  Shepard basically says something to the effect of this, "Whatever race you came from, they're dead.  They died a long time ago.  And now they can rest in peace."


WHAT?? They added a paragon interrupt??? How did I miss that?? :o

No, that would have to be there for some time...
the places the EC changes stuff:
End001_900/_910/_920 , this is after the APC ride up to beaming up
End002_100, opening
End002_300, TIM conflict
End002_400, Guardian
End002_500, final choice
(numerous stuff after the choice, obviously)
Nor_204, (Normandy Deck 2, Room 4) Call Hackett
Nor_405, (Normandy Deck 4, Room 5) Engineering
Nor_600, (Normandy Deck 6, Dreams) before the attack on the Cerberus HQ

Just checked what they changed in the dream: Shepard now looks totally confused and freaked out when she sees herself. Before she was just standing there pretty emotionless.

#34341
spotlessvoid

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@ Xavendithas

I'd take your explanation, except shouldn't Shepard be lying on his back, probably on flat ground?

#34342
Fingertrip

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Just checked what they changed in the dream: Shepard now looks totally confused and freaked out when she sees herself. Before she was just standing there pretty emotionless.

Link to confirm?

#34343
masster blaster

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Please read what I have posted on this page please.

#34344
Xavendithas

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spotlessvoid wrote...

@ Xavendithas

I'd take your explanation, except shouldn't Shepard be lying on his back, probably on flat ground?


/shrug

Who knows. I just liked where that thought was going. I think things are starting to sync up between the imagery on the 'citadel' and past events, but what the end product is? No clue.

Modifié par Xavendithas, 29 juin 2012 - 05:42 .


#34345
FFZero

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Another point to add on the dreams, while I can't be 100% sure without going back over 100's of sound files  I think the EC adds more dead squadmate whispers to the dreams. Noticed a few that I hadn't heard before when looking the EC's sound files.

Modifié par FFZero, 29 juin 2012 - 05:50 .


#34346
munnellyladt

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Anybody know if EDI can still get out of the normandy when they land on the planet?

#34347
MegumiAzusa

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munnellyladt wrote...

Anybody know if EDI can still get out of the normandy when they land on the planet?

No, she is also on the memorial wall.

#34348
Andromidius

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So the EC changed some of the dream sequences?

Can't find anything on youtube yet...

#34349
masster blaster

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masster blaster wrote...

Guys it's like I said in the last page the only reason there is even a breath scene it's because the war assets are holding the reapers off and Harbinger off so Shepard can wake up. Did any of us ever thought the reason why the catalyst ever leaves early because it's going to go kill Shepard before Shepard wakes up.

Also when you stop and think for a sec. In the new EC Shepard can refuse the Indcotrination bd the catalyst goes into a reaper voices that has both Shepard's voice the childs voices and Harbingers voices appifled so that some people may think it's just a reaper.

And it also makes sense with the breath scene after the epilogue because Shepard is starting to feel that he/she is alive, and that all because of the war assets we have collected because it's bying time for Shepard to wake up.and could explain why it took so much in the original content ending in which Shepard can wake up after you unlock Synthesis, which is funny because you would think that it would be the best ending if it would be unlocked after you unlock the breath scene.

And finaly we get to the part were the god child lies to Shepard about EDI and the geth dying because if Shepard did survive the destroy ending you bet your a.. that they also did to because If the endings are Inoctrination attemptes then every thing we see is wrong.



#34350
masster blaster

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masster blaster wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Guys it's like I said in the last page the only reason there is even a breath scene it's because the war assets are holding the reapers off and Harbinger off so Shepard can wake up. Did any of us ever thought the reason why the catalyst ever leaves early because it's going to go kill Shepard before Shepard wakes up.

Also when you stop and think for a sec. In the new EC Shepard can refuse the Indcotrination bd the catalyst goes into a reaper voices that has both Shepard's voice the childs voices and Harbingers voices appifled so that some people may think it's just a reaper.

And it also makes sense with the breath scene after the epilogue because Shepard is starting to feel that he/she is alive, and that all because of the war assets we have collected because it's bying time for Shepard to wake up.and could explain why it took so much in the original content ending in which Shepard can wake up after you unlock Synthesis, which is funny because you would think that it would be the best ending if it would be unlocked after you unlock the breath scene.

And finaly we get to the part were the god child lies to Shepard about EDI and the geth dying because if Shepard did survive the destroy ending you bet your a.. that they also did to because If the endings are Inoctrination attemptes then every thing we see is wrong.