55528 réponses à ce sujet

[insomniak9]

We've shown here that the "Citadel" contains guns from an Alliance Dreadnought. How will comparing some pipes prove anything?

Also, BIG RED DESTROYBINGER PICTURE! >.<

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I've been thinking about something, and I just had a realization. There's clear evidence that Starbinger (I'm going to revive that.) is in Shepard's mind in some capacity. How do I know this? Because every time Shepard asks Starbinger what's going to happen if he chooses a certain ending, he see a vision of what the outcome will be. This is in addition to the visions of Anderson and TIM. Here's a video:

Not sure if this is premature, but seriously, any thoughts?

Sorry, I don't follow.

It's clear that SOMETHING is placing images in Shepard's mind.  How else could he SEE what was going to happen in each choice?  And it seems as if the only thing that could do that would be Starbinger.  And since Starbinger is probably Harbinger, that just suggests to me that the Reapers are in Shepard's mind.

Possible. But when someone tells you that you have to make a choice you usually think about the consequences, images flow in your mind. It's the same here. On the other hand, it might be there for show/the player's amusement.

[llbountyhunter]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I've been thinking about something, and I just had a realization. There's clear evidence that Starbinger (I'm going to revive that.) is in Shepard's mind in some capacity. How do I know this? Because every time Shepard asks Starbinger what's going to happen if he chooses a certain ending, he see a vision of what the outcome will be. This is in addition to the visions of Anderson and TIM. Here's a video:

Not sure if this is premature, but seriously, any thoughts?

Sorry, I don't follow.

It's clear that SOMETHING is placing images in Shepard's mind.  How else could he SEE what was going to happen in each choice?  And it seems as if the only thing that could do that would be Starbinger.  And since Starbinger is probably Harbinger, that just suggests to me that the Reapers are in Shepard's mind.

I don't think we can use that as evidence.  I think its more of the explanation that the starbrat gives you rather than a mental implant.

[MaximizedAction]

Eryri wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Eryri wrote...

By the same token, Throne of Bhaal didn't change the ending of Baldur's gate 2, but it certainly added to the story. Do you think we might be in for a good old fashioned expansion pack? Possibly disc based for the folks with poor internet connections? Maybe I'm getting my hopes up too much, but that would be great!

It would even explain all the quotes suggesting that ME3 is the end of Shepard's story. An expansion pack would still be technically part of ME3, rathen than a true sequel.

That I think might be a problem, as it would require payment. Why?

The problem with the ME3 ending are not only the disappoint moral implications from the story or the initial lack of closure, but pre-release statements from devs that explicitly stated things that on a first look are exact opposits of what the ending turned out to be.

So, while being nothing lawsuit-worthy, enough fans accursed them of false advertising and where p*ssed off.

So, if BW decided to play a little game with us, it has to turn out as a joke eventually, and they should give out the 'real' ending for free, thus giving everyone the game they really expected from all those interviews. And that is really only possible with DLC, which is very present in-game (menu entry, initial final written message "built that legend with downloadable content").

TL;DR: Imo, the ME3 twist (if existent) is something that fits in the DLC generation.

Hmm - this is a bit morally tricky. On the one hand, I would feel a bit a bit taken advantage of if developers start a habit of holding game story content hostage, a la the "True Ending" to Asura's Wrath.

On the other, had I been entirely satisfied with ME3's ending as it was, I would have gladly bought dlc anyway. If this new Leviathan pack for example gives us a good mission, and feeds new consequences into the ending that make it great - i.e a successful Refuse option, or a post wake up sequence - then I'm in the same place, (and would have spent the same amount of money) that I would have been had the ending been great to begin with, and then gone on to buy mid-game dlc.

TL DR - Is it OK for Bioware to charge for an IT expansion pack, as long as it's good quality and provides a decent amount of gameplay for the money?

Good argument! But they'd have to lean on the fans to make a paid 'true ending' attractive enough without pissing off a huge amount of people. Maybe, keep this alternate reality game going for long enough to make it interesting (MP events leading into SP stuff) -- but that's all suggested rigoriously by Arian in his theory.

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

But IT ISN'T BROKEN! It's admissible, negligible

i.e. You can't explain the plotholes, thus you ignore them.

Seriously, if you can't give an explaination for things then you're not doing a good job proving your points.  If you can't explain them without either indoctrination or hallucination, then you can't explain them with literalist viewpoints.

And thus the pointholes are breaks in the game.

End of.

No, I have made my position perfectly clear as to why it is not strange for the Shadow Broker's engines to be present there without resorting to IT and its derivatives. In fact, as I have said again and again, it doesn't make sense in IT since Shepards who haven't done LotSB are imagining something they have never seen!

I should point out that technically, those are NOT the same models as the ones on the Shadow Broker Ship.  They made a whole new asset.  However, they seem designed to REMIND the player of the panels on the Shadow Broker Ship.  They didn't just reuse an asset, they designed a whole new one.  And they could have designed that asset ANY WAY THEY WANTED TO.  And yet, they decided to go with a model that would remind people of the panels on the Shadow Broker Ship.  Why?

Fair enough. They look pretty similar, I was merely pointing out a connection others ITers have made. Nor am I completely sure that they had the Shadow Broker's ship in mind (remember this is from the same people who didn't think people would link the destruction of the mass relay in Arrival with that in the ending of ME3). And my last point still stands

I'm curious, even if Shepard didn't complete LotSB, does he still know from the beginning that Liara is the Shadow Broker?  If so, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that he visited her at some point.

[Eryri]

Dwailing wrote...

I've been thinking about something, and I just had a realization. There's clear evidence that Starbinger (I'm going to revive that.) is in Shepard's mind in some capacity. How do I know this? Because every time Shepard asks Starbinger what's going to happen if he chooses a certain ending, he see a vision of what the outcome will be. This is in addition to the visions of Anderson and TIM. Here's a video:

Yes I thought that. It wasn't clear whether those scenes were visible to Shepard, or were just for our benefit. 

However the thing that really sticks out is that Shepard still never once challenges the catalyst for tastelessly assuming the form of a dead child.

I know we're used to stories where some advanced alien like Q - "assumes a form your primitive human minds can comprehend". But Shepard actually lives in a sci-fi universe! He doesn't watch Star Trek and have meta knowledge of sci-fi tropes!

Modifié par Eryri, 29 juin 2012 - 08:13 .

[Xavendithas]

Peytl wrote...

Tbh, we just need to prove that Shep was on Citadel in the breathing scene, which can be proven by simple comparison of the cabels. This definitely destroys the IT premise that Shep is on the Earth. It's like card house, you remove one card and everything will just break down.

Can someone from IT believers explain me, why the hell would BW expand the "hallucinations"?

Okay, show me how a simple comparison of the cables shows Shepard is still on the Citadel.

I'll wait for the answer right here.

[MegumiAzusa]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I've been thinking about something, and I just had a realization. There's clear evidence that Starbinger (I'm going to revive that.) is in Shepard's mind in some capacity. How do I know this? Because every time Shepard asks Starbinger what's going to happen if he chooses a certain ending, he see a vision of what the outcome will be. This is in addition to the visions of Anderson and TIM. Here's a video:

Not sure if this is premature, but seriously, any thoughts?

Sorry, I don't follow.

It's clear that SOMETHING is placing images in Shepard's mind.  How else could he SEE what was going to happen in each choice?  And it seems as if the only thing that could do that would be Starbinger.  And since Starbinger is probably Harbinger, that just suggests to me that the Reapers are in Shepard's mind.

Btw there is only one vision for blue and green, but two for red.
The interesting thing is also how the files are called: End002_Vis_RedVap, End002_Vis_RedBad, End002_Vis_BlueBad, End002_Vis_GreenGood.

[dreamgazer]

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I've been thinking about something, and I just had a realization. There's clear evidence that Starbinger (I'm going to revive that.) is in Shepard's mind in some capacity. How do I know this? Because every time Shepard asks Starbinger what's going to happen if he chooses a certain ending, he see a vision of what the outcome will be. This is in addition to the visions of Anderson and TIM. Here's a video:

Not sure if this is premature, but seriously, any thoughts?

It goes back to the question of whether Shepard's imagining these visions, or whether the catalyst is forcing them on Shepard.  I'll need to watch them again before I give my definitive viewpoint, but I still think he's forcing the imagery. 

[llbountyhunter]

SubAstris wrote...

Peytl wrote...

Tbh, we just need to prove that Shep was on Citadel in the breathing scene, which can be proven by simple comparison of the cabels. This definitely destroys the IT premise that Shep is on the Earth. It's like card house, you remove one card and everything will just break down.

Can someone from IT believers explain me, why the hell would BW expand the "hallucinations"?

Best answer is that they wanted to please everyone, which still makes no sense if IT was their true plan. Unless BW are deeply unprincipled in this respect.

If alot of people didn't like IT it males perfect sense for them to do what they did.

Why not just confirm the literal endings?

[plfranke]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Eryri wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Eryri wrote...

By the same token, Throne of Bhaal didn't change the ending of Baldur's gate 2, but it certainly added to the story. Do you think we might be in for a good old fashioned expansion pack? Possibly disc based for the folks with poor internet connections? Maybe I'm getting my hopes up too much, but that would be great!

It would even explain all the quotes suggesting that ME3 is the end of Shepard's story. An expansion pack would still be technically part of ME3, rathen than a true sequel.

That I think might be a problem, as it would require payment. Why?

The problem with the ME3 ending are not only the disappoint moral implications from the story or the initial lack of closure, but pre-release statements from devs that explicitly stated things that on a first look are exact opposits of what the ending turned out to be.

So, while being nothing lawsuit-worthy, enough fans accursed them of false advertising and where p*ssed off.

So, if BW decided to play a little game with us, it has to turn out as a joke eventually, and they should give out the 'real' ending for free, thus giving everyone the game they really expected from all those interviews. And that is really only possible with DLC, which is very present in-game (menu entry, initial final written message "built that legend with downloadable content").

TL;DR: Imo, the ME3 twist (if existent) is something that fits in the DLC generation.

Hmm - this is a bit morally tricky. On the one hand, I would feel a bit a bit taken advantage of if developers start a habit of holding game story content hostage, a la the "True Ending" to Asura's Wrath.

On the other, had I been entirely satisfied with ME3's ending as it was, I would have gladly bought dlc anyway. If this new Leviathan pack for example gives us a good mission, and feeds new consequences into the ending that make it great - i.e a successful Refuse option, or a post wake up sequence - then I'm in the same place, (and would have spent the same amount of money) that I would have been had the ending been great to begin with, and then gone on to buy mid-game dlc.

TL DR - Is it OK for Bioware to charge for an IT expansion pack, as long as it's good quality and provides a decent amount of gameplay for the money?

Good argument! But they'd have to lean on the fans to make a paid 'true ending' attractive enough without pissing off a huge amount of people. Maybe, keep this alternate reality game going for long enough to make it interesting (MP events leading into SP stuff) -- but that's all suggested rigoriously by Arian in his theory.

I think what it really comes down to is time now. Hopefully during these three months they were really working on much more than the EC and can almost immediately come out with a dlc that has some impact on the ending. Then there's hope. And you know we do have hope... more than we think.

[insomniak9]

Aww man you're all killing me.

[Dwailing]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I've been thinking about something, and I just had a realization. There's clear evidence that Starbinger (I'm going to revive that.) is in Shepard's mind in some capacity. How do I know this? Because every time Shepard asks Starbinger what's going to happen if he chooses a certain ending, he see a vision of what the outcome will be. This is in addition to the visions of Anderson and TIM. Here's a video:

Not sure if this is premature, but seriously, any thoughts?

Sorry, I don't follow.

It's clear that SOMETHING is placing images in Shepard's mind.  How else could he SEE what was going to happen in each choice?  And it seems as if the only thing that could do that would be Starbinger.  And since Starbinger is probably Harbinger, that just suggests to me that the Reapers are in Shepard's mind.

I don't think we can use that as evidence.  I think its more of the explanation that the starbrat gives you rather than a mental implant.

Still, they seem like awefully specific visions to just be Shepard's imagination at work based on what Starbinger told him.  I mean, in Destroy, for instance, why wouldn't he just see the Reapers, I don't know, exploding?  Why does he see them keeling over EXACTLY like they do if he chooses Destroy?

Or another example, in the vision about Control, why would he see the Citadel arms closing back up if he's just basing his visions on what Starbinger tells him?  Starbinger said nothing about the Citadel, just the Reapers.

Modifié par Dwailing, 29 juin 2012 - 08:16 .

[SubAstris]

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

But IT ISN'T BROKEN! It's admissible, negligible

i.e. You can't explain the plotholes, thus you ignore them.

Seriously, if you can't give an explaination for things then you're not doing a good job proving your points.  If you can't explain them without either indoctrination or hallucination, then you can't explain them with literalist viewpoints.

And thus the pointholes are breaks in the game.

End of.

No, I have made my position perfectly clear as to why it is not strange for the Shadow Broker's engines to be present there without resorting to IT and its derivatives. In fact, as I have said again and again, it doesn't make sense in IT since Shepards who haven't done LotSB are imagining something they have never seen!

I should point out that technically, those are NOT the same models as the ones on the Shadow Broker Ship.  They made a whole new asset.  However, they seem designed to REMIND the player of the panels on the Shadow Broker Ship.  They didn't just reuse an asset, they designed a whole new one.  And they could have designed that asset ANY WAY THEY WANTED TO.  And yet, they decided to go with a model that would remind people of the panels on the Shadow Broker Ship.  Why?

Fair enough. They look pretty similar, I was merely pointing out a connection others ITers have made. Nor am I completely sure that they had the Shadow Broker's ship in mind (remember this is from the same people who didn't think people would link the destruction of the mass relay in Arrival with that in the ending of ME3). And my last point still stands

I'm curious, even if Shepard didn't complete LotSB, does he still know from the beginning that Liara is the Shadow Broker?  If so, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that he visited her at some point.

He might have. I have done one playthrough without playing LotSB but I honestly can't remember if Shepard knows or not. All I know is that if you don't play it, you don't do the mission with her

[dreamgazer]

Xavendithas wrote...

Okay, show me how a simple comparison of the cables shows Shepard is still on the Citadel.

I'll wait for the answer right here.

Cables, broken stones, mist everywhere in a dark, semi-cavernous space ... s/he's still on the planet with the rachni!

Modifié par dreamgazer, 29 juin 2012 - 08:15 .

[SubAstris]

llbountyhunter wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Peytl wrote...

Tbh, we just need to prove that Shep was on Citadel in the breathing scene, which can be proven by simple comparison of the cabels. This definitely destroys the IT premise that Shep is on the Earth. It's like card house, you remove one card and everything will just break down.

Can someone from IT believers explain me, why the hell would BW expand the "hallucinations"?

Best answer is that they wanted to please everyone, which still makes no sense if IT was their true plan. Unless BW are deeply unprincipled in this respect.

If alot of people didn't like IT it males perfect sense for them to do what they did.

Why not just confirm the literal endings?

But I hear all the time that people love IT, your good friend Arian was quoted as saying 80% of people support IT.

They have done basically everything barring "IT is not true" to confirm the literal endings anyway (if you want to disagree, that's fine)

[Andromidius]

Peytl wrote...

Tbh, we just need to prove that Shep was on Citadel in the breathing scene, which can be proven by simple comparison of the cabels. This definitely destroys the IT premise that Shep is on the Earth. It's like card house, you remove one card and everything will just break down.

Can someone from IT believers explain me, why the hell would BW expand the "hallucinations"?

To make them more obvious for people who didn't get it beforehand.

And also, you'd have to do a LOT more then just prove Shepard is on the Citadel (good luck with that by the way, you really have your work cut out for you).  You'd also then need to explain how Shepard survived being vaporised by the explosion, and what the dreams were all about, and who Starbinger really is and why he's using circular logic...etc etc etc...

Really, if it was THAT simple it would have been done already.

[Xavendithas]

dreamgazer wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

Okay, show me how a simple comparison of the cables shows Shepard is still on the Citadel.

I'll wait for the answer right here.

Cables, broken stones, mist everywhere in a dark, semi-cavernous space ... s/he's still on the planet with the rachni!

:wizard::wizard:

[Rifneno]

SubAstris wrote...

He might have. I have done one playthrough without playing LotSB but I honestly can't remember if Shepard knows or not. All I know is that if you don't play it, you don't do the mission with her

No, Shepard doesn't know.  I was screwing with the flags one time trying to set Liara's romance and accidentally wiped out my Shepard's memory of LoTSB.  When he went into Liara's cabin the first time it was basically "what's all this?"  "oh, I'm the Shadow Broker now."  "... 'kay?"

[XanderLav]

insomniak9 wrote...

Aww man you're all killing me.

Hold THE LINE!!!
Before the EC there was just crapp and we held THE LINE!!!
And we shall HOLD THE LINE!!!

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Peytl wrote...

Tbh, we just need to prove that Shep was on Citadel in the breathing scene, which can be proven by simple comparison of the cabels. This definitely destroys the IT premise that Shep is on the Earth. It's like card house, you remove one card and everything will just break down.

Can someone from IT believers explain me, why the hell would BW expand the "hallucinations"?

Best answer is that they wanted to please everyone, which still makes no sense if IT was their true plan. Unless BW are deeply unprincipled in this respect.

If alot of people didn't like IT it males perfect sense for them to do what they did.

Why not just confirm the literal endings?

But I hear all the time that people love IT, your good friend Arian was quoted as saying 80% of people support IT.

They have done basically everything barring "IT is not true" to confirm the literal endings anyway (if you want to disagree, that's fine)

Give me a few examples of everything they've done to confirm that the endings are literal.  Go on, I'll wait right here.

[insomniak9]

insomniak9 wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Another picture to illustrate another of my points:

The Destroy console has great big curvy circular pipes in it's construction, tell me that doesn't look like a Reaper from this angle. Control is completely lacking these. Why not make it symmetrical?

I'll tell you why; because when you shoot Destroy, you're actually shooting Harbinger. 

We don't need to argue the validity of IT here; this is to discuss Indoctrination Hallucination theory. So, discuss this ^ 

[dreamgazer]

insomniak9 wrote...

Aww man you're all killing me.

I think they're not discussing the visual symmetry to the destroy area because it's already been discussed a bit, along with the fiery explosion looking a little like a Reaper.

I'm not biting on that bit of reaching. 

[llbountyhunter]

SubAstris wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Peytl wrote...

Tbh, we just need to prove that Shep was on Citadel in the breathing scene, which can be proven by simple comparison of the cabels. This definitely destroys the IT premise that Shep is on the Earth. It's like card house, you remove one card and everything will just break down.

Can someone from IT believers explain me, why the hell would BW expand the "hallucinations"?

Best answer is that they wanted to please everyone, which still makes no sense if IT was their true plan. Unless BW are deeply unprincipled in this respect.

If alot of people didn't like IT it males perfect sense for them to do what they did.

Why not just confirm the literal endings?

But I hear all the time that people love IT, your good friend Arian was quoted as saying 80% of people support IT.

They have done basically everything barring "IT is not true" to confirm the literal endings anyway (if you want to disagree, that's fine)

But I also remember you saying hotl to not be a accurate representation of the community. Its obvious bioware looks at all the areas for opinions on IT.

[MaximizedAction]

insomniak9 wrote...

Aww man you're all killing me.

Don't worry, I saw your pic and mentally responded to it. Imo, a lot of stuff goes uncommented here; doesn't mean it isn't noted.

Some thought that those cables in the Control ending look like Reaper legs. To me the tube in Destroy initially reminded me of those huskify tubes we see for example all over Sanctuary.

But the overall interpretation is, that it symbolises shooting something Reaperish.