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Dwailing wrote...
Oh Keelah, not this Occam's Razor crap AGAIN! Occam's Razor does NOT I repeat does NOT apply to fiction! The writers can make things HOWEVER FRAKKING COMPLEX THEY WANT TO! God, I'm getting sick of people applying Occam's Razor to fiction.
N-Seven wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
And you're essentially admitting you don't care/don't want to think about it, and thus have no place in this thread. Taking the ending at face value DEVALUES Mass Effect.
If you're happy with that, fine. But don't throw underhand insults at people by suggesting we have no life because we're interested in debating something.
What? So you're interested ni debating but for those countering your point (hey I used a smiley) 'we have no place in this thread'?
I'm getting at Occam's razor. A simpler answer is better than a complicated on. So I present the simpler answer.
As for devaluing Mass Effect...I feel that's absurd. In fact I feel the other way around. IT theory would be a cliched, Inception ripoff, with tips of the hat to Total Recall, the red-pill-blue-pill Matrix/Dreamscape and whatever other 'mind twister' movies or fiction you can think of.
Are those movies, or those mind-twister themes bad? Nope. But would be nonsensical for a game series that has styled itself as a heavy-handed, fun, action space-opera (yes this is fantasy-space opera, not Foundation), to suddenly pretend to be a Christopher Nolan or M Night Shymyalan movie riddled with subtle hints. And lets face it, the story telling in this series has been heavy handed. If there was a mental struggle going on, Bioware would let you know it from the get go. There probably would have been a mini-game.
insomniak9 wrote...
You on the other hand prefer to ignore all the weird stuff that happens once Harbys red light district kicks you into next Tuesday?
you know, the stuff the devs put into the game.
ok then.
SubAstris wrote...
plfranke wrote...
I'll accept your explanation about the Normandy because I actually can see that happening. I get what you're saying about TIM just being a plot convenience but come on. There was only one path to the control panel and the door on the other end closed. He would have literally had to come out of no where. Anderson as stupid as the explanation "the walls are shifting.... changing." is I can give that to plot convenience but the TIM thing is just too far. If it's "information changing very quickly" why even have coates saying anything at all? Also why is it you don't believe in IT subastris do you just think it was terrible writing?
Sorry for the delay.
I don't think I am really going to convince you about the TIM point. Fair enough. What I would say though is next time you play a game pay attention to entrances of people often they do come out left field, it's just you don't notice it all the time.
As for IT, I think it was poor writing mostly. I know people often like to put BW on a pedestal and think they can do no wrong, but that simply isn't the case. ME2's main plot was bad and to my mind the whole game seems like the "odd one out". This is not the first BW game to have fan outcry (see Dragon Age 2) either. But the poor writing doesn't just start with the end; in the beginning, the "deus ex machina" in the form of the Crucible is really bad writing.
Othertimes I just think ITers are mistaken, forgetting simpler explanations for things and instead preferring a more convoluted one in the form of IT. That's not to say they are definitely wrong, but usually the simpler explanation is the right one
N-Seven wrote...
Yep, it can pretty much be explained as either coincidence, stuff done for gameplay mechanics, melodrama, or the reuse of art assets, or sadly in some cases oversights and storyboarding details. Very ordinary explanations.
While IT, and Bioware's motives for putting it in, and sustaining a conspiracy, requires extraordinary explanations.
N-Seven wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
And you're essentially admitting you don't care/don't want to think about it, and thus have no place in this thread. Taking the ending at face value DEVALUES Mass Effect.
If you're happy with that, fine. But don't throw underhand insults at people by suggesting we have no life because we're interested in debating something.
What? So you're interested ni debating but for those countering your point (hey I used a smiley) 'we have no place in this thread'?
I'm getting at Occam's razor. A simpler answer is better than a complicated on. So I present the simpler answer.
As for devaluing Mass Effect...I feel that's absurd. In fact I feel the other way around. IT theory would be a cliched, Inception ripoff, with tips of the hat to Total Recall, the red-pill-blue-pill Matrix/Dreamscape and whatever other 'mind twister' movies or fiction you can think of.
Are those movies, or those mind-twister themes bad? Nope. But would be nonsensical for a game series that has styled itself as a heavy-handed, fun, action space-opera (yes this is fantasy-space opera, not Foundation), to suddenly pretend to be a Christopher Nolan or M Night Shymyalan movie riddled with subtle hints. And lets face it, the story telling in this series has been heavy handed. If there was a mental struggle going on, Bioware would let you know it from the get go. There probably would have been a mini-game.
themaniac003 wrote...
I have pretty much lost all faith in Mass effect. For some reason whenever I read anything this Subastris posts in this thread it gives me a migraine bigger than my dissapoint for bioware.
So, those words behind, I have a question for you guys who still have a little faith out here. I cannot wrap my head around how IT can still be true when Bioware added the scene with Shepards LI hesitating to put his name up in the destroy ending. That to me makes it seem like Bioware wants us to take the ending at face value. Anybody have possibly a answer for this? Is everything as hopeless as it feels?
I cried in the last episode only to learn I just got trolled a few minutes laterRifneno wrote...
Dwailing wrote...
Oh Keelah, not this Occam's Razor crap AGAIN! Occam's Razor does NOT I repeat does NOT apply to fiction! The writers can make things HOWEVER FRAKKING COMPLEX THEY WANT TO! God, I'm getting sick of people applying Occam's Razor to fiction.
Agreed. Occam's Razor applies to fiction like Godwin's Law applies to World War II documentaries.
I'm starting to wonder if half the people who quote it didn't even know what Occam's Razor was until an antisocial TV doctor told them about it.
themaniac003 wrote...
I have pretty much lost all faith in Mass effect. For some reason whenever I read anything this Subastris posts in this thread it gives me a migraine bigger than my dissapoint for bioware.
So, those words behind, I have a question for you guys who still have a little faith out here. I cannot wrap my head around how IT can still be true when Bioware added the scene with Shepards LI hesitating to put his name up in the destroy ending. That to me makes it seem like Bioware wants us to take the ending at face value. Anybody have possibly a answer for this? Is everything as hopeless as it feels?
CoolioThane wrote...
N-Seven wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
And you're essentially admitting you don't care/don't want to think about it, and thus have no place in this thread. Taking the ending at face value DEVALUES Mass Effect.
If you're happy with that, fine. But don't throw underhand insults at people by suggesting we have no life because we're interested in debating something.
What? So you're interested ni debating but for those countering your point (hey I used a smiley) 'we have no place in this thread'?
I'm getting at Occam's razor. A simpler answer is better than a complicated on. So I present the simpler answer.
As for devaluing Mass Effect...I feel that's absurd. In fact I feel the other way around. IT theory would be a cliched, Inception ripoff, with tips of the hat to Total Recall, the red-pill-blue-pill Matrix/Dreamscape and whatever other 'mind twister' movies or fiction you can think of.
Are those movies, or those mind-twister themes bad? Nope. But would be nonsensical for a game series that has styled itself as a heavy-handed, fun, action space-opera (yes this is fantasy-space opera, not Foundation), to suddenly pretend to be a Christopher Nolan or M Night Shymyalan movie riddled with subtle hints. And lets face it, the story telling in this series has been heavy handed. If there was a mental struggle going on, Bioware would let you know it from the get go. There probably would have been a mini-game.
No. **** off, seriously. Your arrogance is beyond belief, as if everything you say is final. Please.
Noone can deny the numerous amounts of clues all pointing to the same idea that he is indoctrinated and this is all a hallucination. Yes, one or two things might be explained away, but in my opinion, the sum of all the individual parts is damning evidence. They even add in MORE clues with the EC.
Mate, this is happening. It's not ripping off anything...it's doing something unprecedented. The game indoctrinates the players - most certainly you and other non-believers in the IT. Just wait and see, but please don't treat us like second class people.
If there is no indoctrination then that's it between me and BW as it's the only explanation for everything.
themaniac003 wrote...
I have pretty much lost all faith in Mass effect. For some reason whenever I read anything this Subastris posts in this thread it gives me a migraine bigger than my dissapoint for bioware.
So, those words behind, I have a question for you guys who still have a little faith out here. I cannot wrap my head around how IT can still be true when Bioware added the scene with Shepards LI hesitating to put his name up in the destroy ending. That to me makes it seem like Bioware wants us to take the ending at face value. Anybody have possibly a answer for this? Is everything as hopeless as it feels?
Dwailing wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
plfranke wrote...
I'll accept your explanation about the Normandy because I actually can see that happening. I get what you're saying about TIM just being a plot convenience but come on. There was only one path to the control panel and the door on the other end closed. He would have literally had to come out of no where. Anderson as stupid as the explanation "the walls are shifting.... changing." is I can give that to plot convenience but the TIM thing is just too far. If it's "information changing very quickly" why even have coates saying anything at all? Also why is it you don't believe in IT subastris do you just think it was terrible writing?
Sorry for the delay.
I don't think I am really going to convince you about the TIM point. Fair enough. What I would say though is next time you play a game pay attention to entrances of people often they do come out left field, it's just you don't notice it all the time.
As for IT, I think it was poor writing mostly. I know people often like to put BW on a pedestal and think they can do no wrong, but that simply isn't the case. ME2's main plot was bad and to my mind the whole game seems like the "odd one out". This is not the first BW game to have fan outcry (see Dragon Age 2) either. But the poor writing doesn't just start with the end; in the beginning, the "deus ex machina" in the form of the Crucible is really bad writing.
Othertimes I just think ITers are mistaken, forgetting simpler explanations for things and instead preferring a more convoluted one in the form of IT. That's not to say they are definitely wrong, but usually the simpler explanation is the right one
I should point out that Dragon Age II was NOT developed by the ME team. They're two separate groups. Also, I am STILL of the opinion that the Crucible is some kind of trap.
SubAstris wrote...
N-Seven wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
And you're essentially admitting you don't care/don't want to think about it, and thus have no place in this thread. Taking the ending at face value DEVALUES Mass Effect.
If you're happy with that, fine. But don't throw underhand insults at people by suggesting we have no life because we're interested in debating something.
What? So you're interested ni debating but for those countering your point (hey I used a smiley) 'we have no place in this thread'?
I'm getting at Occam's razor. A simpler answer is better than a complicated on. So I present the simpler answer.
As for devaluing Mass Effect...I feel that's absurd. In fact I feel the other way around. IT theory would be a cliched, Inception ripoff, with tips of the hat to Total Recall, the red-pill-blue-pill Matrix/Dreamscape and whatever other 'mind twister' movies or fiction you can think of.
Are those movies, or those mind-twister themes bad? Nope. But would be nonsensical for a game series that has styled itself as a heavy-handed, fun, action space-opera (yes this is fantasy-space opera, not Foundation), to suddenly pretend to be a Christopher Nolan or M Night Shymyalan movie riddled with subtle hints. And lets face it, the story telling in this series has been heavy handed. If there was a mental struggle going on, Bioware would let you know it from the get go. There probably would have been a mini-game.
Good point. BW aren't really known for their heavily symbolic endings. Having played through KOTOR again recently, another game with a big twist, they foreshadow the twist so blatantly and very early on that I'm surprised I didn't get it the first time.
Modifié par Dwailing, 29 juin 2012 - 11:04 .
MegumiAzusa wrote...
I cried in the last episode only to learn I just got trolled a few minutes laterRifneno wrote...
Dwailing wrote...
Oh Keelah, not this Occam's Razor crap AGAIN! Occam's Razor does NOT I repeat does NOT apply to fiction! The writers can make things HOWEVER FRAKKING COMPLEX THEY WANT TO! God, I'm getting sick of people applying Occam's Razor to fiction.
Agreed. Occam's Razor applies to fiction like Godwin's Law applies to World War II documentaries.
I'm starting to wonder if half the people who quote it didn't even know what Occam's Razor was until an antisocial TV doctor told them about it.
N-Seven wrote...
Lol. Ok sport, when is the 'real third ending' going to come out? Are you still desperately clinging to this? It's going on four months now since release. Want to bet there will be nothing a year from now?
Can you explain more?insomniak9 wrote...
It's not speculating, people can actually see these things we're talking about.
Here is the Cerberus logo image
I'm not sure if they're Banshees or Husks, but there's definitely 2 big Dreadnought cannons pointing at them when you run up that slope.
Dwailing wrote...
MegumiAzusa wrote...
I cried in the last episode only to learn I just got trolled a few minutes later
So House really DIDN'T die! Yes! IGN was right!
We can agree that many times entrances come out of left field but this isn't out of left field it's just insane. There was no physically possible way for him to be there. Oddly enough people tend to just overlook it, call me a stickler. I agree with you there I think that barring hours of explanation from bioware there's a lot of poor writing in the game. The crucible is terrible, the reapers attacking sanctuary, kai leng being all powerful as the plot sees fit. We can definitely agree on that.SubAstris wrote...
plfranke wrote...
I'll accept your explanation about the Normandy because I actually can see that happening. I get what you're saying about TIM just being a plot convenience but come on. There was only one path to the control panel and the door on the other end closed. He would have literally had to come out of no where. Anderson as stupid as the explanation "the walls are shifting.... changing." is I can give that to plot convenience but the TIM thing is just too far. If it's "information changing very quickly" why even have coates saying anything at all? Also why is it you don't believe in IT subastris do you just think it was terrible writing?SubAstris wrote...
plfranke wrote...
It's not a waste of my time. I wouldn't have responded to you if I didn't think you have something to contribute. I'm interested to hear what you have to say about the rest. But for the meantime I'll elaborate what I meant. I mean that if Bioware really wanted to disprove IT all they would have to do is say it's not true. It's that simple. If IT is true Bioware is using it as a tool to get people to continue to buy dlc for the future ending that will give the series a fitting end. My point about mentioning the Normandy evacuation is this. There was something stupid and instead of fixing it in a proper way, like hell maybe even a mako picking them up and turning around, anything would have been better than the Normandy flying into an active war zone and flying away while Harbinger is literally staring at them. They replaced something that was difficult to believe with something even harder to believe. However, they didn't fix things that were even worst in my mind like Anderson and TIM.SubAstris wrote...
plfranke wrote...
That's not true at all. First of all it's unfair to say because the biggest thing they could do to confirm is to say that IT isn't true, but there are other things as well. They made the scene where the normandy evacuates your squadmates ridiculous. They don't show anything about the breath scene. They kept the line from coates that everyone has been wiped out, yet somehow someone gives Hackett the intel that Shepard made it on to the citadel but then Hackett a few seconds later says "someone made it on". They kept the weird scene with Anderson and TIM and didn't do anything to show how they got on to the Citadel. There's a lot that's still very unexplained in the endings.SubAstris wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
Peytl wrote...
Tbh, we just need to prove that Shep was on Citadel in the breathing scene, which can be proven by simple comparison of the cabels. This definitely destroys the IT premise that Shep is on the Earth. It's like card house, you remove one card and everything will just break down.
Can someone from IT believers explain me, why the hell would BW expand the "hallucinations"?
Best answer is that they wanted to please everyone, which still makes no sense if IT was their true plan. Unless BW are deeply unprincipled in this respect.
If alot of people didn't like IT it males perfect sense for them to do what they did.
Why not just confirm the literal endings?
But I hear all the time that people love IT, your good friend Arian was quoted as saying 80% of people support IT.
They have done basically everything barring "IT is not true" to confirm the literal endings anyway (if you want to disagree, that's fine)
1) I'm not quite sure what you mean
2) I assume you think the lack of Normandy evacuation scene was ridiculous
before EC? I would agree, and I'm not too keen on the new one either. But I can
see why they did; the original was stupid, and BW did something about it,
although not to everyone's liking. They put time and effort into explaining how
your squadmates explained. This begs the questions of why they did it if IT is
true because its point would be null and void.
I'm not really going to answer the rest because its pretty standard IT fare,
and it's obvious what my position is on those matters. I'm not going to waste
your time.
Ok, in that case I will have a "go".
1) I'm not sure what you mean about the Breath Scene
2) In war-like scenarios, information changes very quickly. I am not that surprised that one minute they learn one thing, and the next something different. It is needed for the plot after all.
3) As for how they got to the Citadel, Anderson is explained as going up the beam as well, but landing in another place. My personal opinion is that they did this to add suspense (crude but effective). As for TIM's entrance being weird, think about games you have played in the past. I bet you can remember occasions where someone appears to come from nowhere. It's a common sight in games. We know already that TIM is on the Citadel, so when we meet him it's not that strange. If they wanted to make it really weird, they could have not put that in
I would like to first say that hopes of there being a future DLC for IT are very low considering BW's comments on the subject (you might want to look over a few of my posts in the previous page or two to see my view).
My view on the Normandy scene is that they put emotional appeal above the plot. A lot of people really liked that scene, I didn't because I was thinking, "this is not the time for sentimentality!". I don't think it is great evidence for IT though because I have seen similar things happen in other films, games. I can understand completely why BW would put it in without IT.
Sorry for the delay.
I don't think I am really going to convince you about the TIM point. Fair enough. What I would say though is next time you play a game pay attention to entrances of people often they do come out left field, it's just you don't notice it all the time.
As for IT, I think it was poor writing mostly. I know people often like to put BW on a pedestal and think they can do no wrong, but that simply isn't the case. ME2's main plot was bad and to my mind the whole game seems like the "odd one out". This is not the first BW game to have fan outcry (see Dragon Age 2) either. But the poor writing doesn't just start with the end; in the beginning, the "deus ex machina" in the form of the Crucible is really bad writing.
Othertimes I just think ITers are mistaken, forgetting simpler explanations for things and instead preferring a more convoluted one in the form of IT. That's not to say they are definitely wrong, but usually the simpler explanation is the right one
Modifié par insomniak9, 29 juin 2012 - 11:08 .
CoolioThane wrote...
themaniac003 wrote...
I have pretty much lost all faith in Mass effect. For some reason whenever I read anything this Subastris posts in this thread it gives me a migraine bigger than my dissapoint for bioware.
So, those words behind, I have a question for you guys who still have a little faith out here. I cannot wrap my head around how IT can still be true when Bioware added the scene with Shepards LI hesitating to put his name up in the destroy ending. That to me makes it seem like Bioware wants us to take the ending at face value. Anybody have possibly a answer for this? Is everything as hopeless as it feels?
I think it adds plausability to the IT personally mate
The way I see it, Shepard knows s/he's dead in Control/Synthesis, so the plaque goes up...
In Destroy, he survives, yes, but s/he senses s/he's not dead!
Think about it; why would the LI hesitate when whatever ending they all have the same knowledge of what happened and no knowledge of Shep. Therefore it all took place in his mind
Rifneno wrote...
N-Seven wrote...
Lol. Ok sport, when is the 'real third ending' going to come out? Are you still desperately clinging to this? It's going on four months now since release. Want to bet there will be nothing a year from now?
I know this may come as a shock to you, but some of us actually realize we don't have all the answers. You should take a cue. And a clue.
N-Seven wrote...
CoolioThane wrote...
N-Seven wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
And you're essentially admitting you don't care/don't want to think about it, and thus have no place in this thread. Taking the ending at face value DEVALUES Mass Effect.
If you're happy with that, fine. But don't throw underhand insults at people by suggesting we have no life because we're interested in debating something.
What? So you're interested ni debating but for those countering your point (hey I used a smiley) 'we have no place in this thread'?
I'm getting at Occam's razor. A simpler answer is better than a complicated on. So I present the simpler answer.
As for devaluing Mass Effect...I feel that's absurd. In fact I feel the other way around. IT theory would be a cliched, Inception ripoff, with tips of the hat to Total Recall, the red-pill-blue-pill Matrix/Dreamscape and whatever other 'mind twister' movies or fiction you can think of.
Are those movies, or those mind-twister themes bad? Nope. But would be nonsensical for a game series that has styled itself as a heavy-handed, fun, action space-opera (yes this is fantasy-space opera, not Foundation), to suddenly pretend to be a Christopher Nolan or M Night Shymyalan movie riddled with subtle hints. And lets face it, the story telling in this series has been heavy handed. If there was a mental struggle going on, Bioware would let you know it from the get go. There probably would have been a mini-game.
No. **** off, seriously. Your arrogance is beyond belief, as if everything you say is final. Please.
Noone can deny the numerous amounts of clues all pointing to the same idea that he is indoctrinated and this is all a hallucination. Yes, one or two things might be explained away, but in my opinion, the sum of all the individual parts is damning evidence. They even add in MORE clues with the EC.
Mate, this is happening. It's not ripping off anything...it's doing something unprecedented. The game indoctrinates the players - most certainly you and other non-believers in the IT. Just wait and see, but please don't treat us like second class people.
If there is no indoctrination then that's it between me and BW as it's the only explanation for everything.
Lol. Ok sport, when is the 'real third ending' going to come out? Are you still desperately clinging to this? It's going on four months now since release. Want to bet there will be nothing a year from now?
Doesn't even have to be a year from now, but you sure will look stupid if the ending is released 
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