55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravereth]

N-Seven wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

just thought of something, if IT is real, (and i hope it is), and it was already very clearly established in the original endings (which it was), why put out the EC? its just wasted time, money, and effort, isnt it? if IT is true, they could have proven it in a dlc without the EC to begin with.

Which is why IT isn't real.

No company would waste the man-hours, resources, and take the time-hit to other projects to release a phony ending.

They also wouldn't want to release a 'real third ending' as paid DLC.  The negative outcry from fans and within the industry wouldn't be worth the few bucks IMHO.

Also no company would want the flak that the original endings caused.   The disgusting personal attacks on staff on this forum, the twitter bombs.  The metacritic bombing.  The threats of legal action, and also if I remember the veiled physical threats.  The negative scrutiny from the press, and the possible alienation of their fanbase, and damage to their reputation within the industry.

If you believe IT is real (outside of fanfic) then you believe Bioware planned and wanted all that.

You also believe that the Extended Cut is just more fakery, and that Bioware committed resources in order to be 'cute' and provide more clues.

You also believe that there is a continuing, sustained project of deception going on from everyone involved in the project, from producers, to writers, and voice-actors.  That every 'making of' documentary, developer and writer blog and interview, is hiding something.   And they have sustained this for more than three months after the game's release, even though sales have dropped substantially.  (not a knock on the game.  All games do).   That when they state that there will be 'no further game content' you say they are lying.

It's far too conspiracy-theory-ish.  Not only that, it would be terrible business on their part.

The simpler answer?  They are just human and dropped the ball on the endings due to time, budget, and publisher pressure.

But what if Bioware realized, that too many players believe in IT so they decided to reduce the number of believers by EC?  I mean, what if THEY are indoctrinating US right now? What if they want Shepard's indoctrination to be a really big surprise for the MAJORITY of players? (making the poll about IT makes more sence if that's true )

And I have to say, that it's actually the only thought which still keeps me interested in this thread... My hopes for IT are really low right now.

BTW. Can someone check what happens if you choose refusal with low EMS and dead Liara? 


Is it just me or EC was planned all along... or at least they really planned to make the memorial wall scene in the original ending? Because the first time i saw the memorial wall and i noticed that empty middle part of it i had a feeling that it's prepared for Shepard 

And I think that the epilogue sequences pictures are  just an imagination of what CAN happen in the future and they're not showing what actually happend ( from a long time perspective) after making a specific choice.

One more question... Why is there an option of critical mission failure with: "the crucible has been destroyed" information? I thought that the Catylyst is controlling the reapers and that he wants Shepard to MAKE his choice... so why the reapers are so impatient? Why Couldn't he stop them? It doesn't make sense at face value so.... any thoughts about it's relation to IT? 

Oh and just one thought on synthesis (), I don't know why, but this line: "...As a galaxy, we can now live the lives we have wished for, taking our first steps into a new world and wonderful future where organic and synthetics can coexist peacefully..." reminds me of THIS 

[SubAstris]

comrade gando wrote...

just adding fuel to the IT fire, what is with the crosshairs moving the entire last part of priority earth? it even does it at the weapon mod screen. and this is the only part of the game it does it. It's not like their an earthquake going on or anything, it's just like any other part of the game.

why are my crosshairs moving?! what significance does it have? hmmmm

Tiredness? Lack of sleep? Stress? Indoctrination...

[Xavendithas]

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

I understand the point that SubAstris is making. The point I'm making is that BioWare isn't writing this stuff into the game for the average fan that may just be picking up the story at ME3. This theory is geared at the people that played all 3 games multiple times, have read the books, gotten the Final Hours app, etc, ect. The fans that are going to have their heads explode at this type of ending.

Then all the guys you are talking about go out and buy ME1 and ME2, purchase the DLC and become BioWare crackheads like the rest of us.

[SubAstris]

XanderLav wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

See, the thing is Indoctrination is far far far more complicated than KOTOR twist. Indoctrination is not supposed to be seen through. If 90 % of fans so through BW masterplan it wouldn't be indoctrination at all.

And that's exactly why it fails as a plot device.

[legaldinho]

SubAstris wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

 And you're essentially admitting you don't care/don't want to think about it, and thus have no place in this thread.  Taking the ending at face value DEVALUES Mass Effect. 

If you're happy with that, fine.  But don't throw underhand insults at people by suggesting we have no life because we're interested in debating something.

What?  So you're interested ni debating but for those countering your point (hey I used a smiley) 'we have no place in this thread'?

I'm getting at Occam's razor.  A simpler answer is better than a complicated on.  So I present the simpler answer.

As for devaluing Mass Effect...I feel that's absurd.  In fact I feel the other way around.  IT theory would be a cliched, Inception ripoff, with tips of the hat to Total Recall, the red-pill-blue-pill Matrix/Dreamscape and whatever other 'mind twister' movies or fiction you can think of.  

Are those movies, or those mind-twister themes bad?  Nope.  But would be nonsensical for a game series that has styled itself as a heavy-handed, fun, action space-opera (yes this is fantasy-space opera, not Foundation), to suddenly pretend to be a Christopher Nolan or M Night Shymyalan movie riddled with subtle hints.  And lets face it, the story telling in this series has been heavy handed.  If there was a mental struggle going on, Bioware would let you know it from the get go.  There probably would have been a mini-game.

Good point. BW aren't really known for their heavily symbolic endings. Having played through KOTOR again recently, another game with a big twist, they foreshadow the twist so blatantly and very early on that I'm surprised I didn't get it the first time.

The first open scene is a foreshadowing of sorts. The deceptive ship sounds as you see one in flight, then the next thing, it's a kid holding a toy ship. Guess who the kid was?

Yeah. I've just seen it as a cool little mindf**k early on, you think Shepard is just doing his business flying with crew on the Normandy, but no, it's just a kid (a sigh of relief follows). I thought it made a nice contrast; the kid is just nonchalantly playing with the ship, not having a care in the world, thinking of war and battle as just a game. And then s*** gets real.
To be fair, that's 50:50, I think it works will with IT and face value.

Sure, but it's foreshadowing:

- the role of the kid.

- his involvement in a trick of sound and vision.

- senses can deceive.

[Rifneno]

dark_secret7 wrote...

Oh. My. God.

I've figured it out.
Mass Effect is a warning beacon. Some people have been indoctrinated already, but the beacon is allowing some people to see the truth.

The Reapers are actually coming.
For realz.

;P

It's okay, we're already building thanix cannons in real life anyway.

[SubAstris]

Xavendithas wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

I understand the point that SubAstris is making. The point I'm making is that BioWare isn't writing this stuff into the game for the average fan that may just be picking up the story at ME3. This theory is geared at the people that played all 3 games multiple times, have read the books, gotten the Final Hours app, etc, ect. The fans that are going to have their heads explode at this type of ending.

Then all the guys you are talking about go out and buy ME1 and ME2, purchase the DLC and become BioWare crackheads like the rest of us.

It's possible, however with the way the trilogy has gone from ME2 BW has definitely tried to cater to a more mainstream audience and have tried their best to make sure that those who pick up ME3 as their first game of the trilogy do not feel left out. It would be strange considering that to think that they would have a plot that could be only be comprehended by so very few, I would guess less than 1% of their fanbase.

They could become "uberfans" like you suggest, but more likely they will be confused and put-off and won't want to touch another BW thing again

Modifié par SubAstris, 30 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[Auralius Carolus]

comrade gando wrote...

just adding fuel to the IT fire, what is with the crosshairs moving the entire last part of priority earth? it even does it at the weapon mod screen. and this is the only part of the game it does it. It's not like their an earthquake going on or anything, it's just like any other part of the game.

why are my crosshairs moving?! what significance does it have? hmmmm

I noticed that, but it had been so long since I played SP, that I couldn't remember if that was part of the combat style.

I tell you one thing, with my hopes up and nerves on end, my gun hand would have been off.

Aside from that, I don't know.

[SubAstris]

legaldinho wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

 And you're essentially admitting you don't care/don't want to think about it, and thus have no place in this thread.  Taking the ending at face value DEVALUES Mass Effect. 

If you're happy with that, fine.  But don't throw underhand insults at people by suggesting we have no life because we're interested in debating something.

What?  So you're interested ni debating but for those countering your point (hey I used a smiley) 'we have no place in this thread'?

I'm getting at Occam's razor.  A simpler answer is better than a complicated on.  So I present the simpler answer.

As for devaluing Mass Effect...I feel that's absurd.  In fact I feel the other way around.  IT theory would be a cliched, Inception ripoff, with tips of the hat to Total Recall, the red-pill-blue-pill Matrix/Dreamscape and whatever other 'mind twister' movies or fiction you can think of.  

Are those movies, or those mind-twister themes bad?  Nope.  But would be nonsensical for a game series that has styled itself as a heavy-handed, fun, action space-opera (yes this is fantasy-space opera, not Foundation), to suddenly pretend to be a Christopher Nolan or M Night Shymyalan movie riddled with subtle hints.  And lets face it, the story telling in this series has been heavy handed.  If there was a mental struggle going on, Bioware would let you know it from the get go.  There probably would have been a mini-game.

Good point. BW aren't really known for their heavily symbolic endings. Having played through KOTOR again recently, another game with a big twist, they foreshadow the twist so blatantly and very early on that I'm surprised I didn't get it the first time.

The first open scene is a foreshadowing of sorts. The deceptive ship sounds as you see one in flight, then the next thing, it's a kid holding a toy ship. Guess who the kid was?

Yeah. I've just seen it as a cool little mindf**k early on, you think Shepard is just doing his business flying with crew on the Normandy, but no, it's just a kid (a sigh of relief follows). I thought it made a nice contrast; the kid is just nonchalantly playing with the ship, not having a care in the world, thinking of war and battle as just a game. And then s*** gets real.
To be fair, that's 50:50, I think it works will with IT and face value.

Sure, but it's foreshadowing:

- the role of the kid.

- his involvement in a trick of sound and vision.

- senses can deceive.

I agree, that's why I said it supports either interpretation

[Xavendithas]

SubAstris wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

I understand the point that SubAstris is making. The point I'm making is that BioWare isn't writing this stuff into the game for the average fan that may just be picking up the story at ME3. This theory is geared at the people that played all 3 games multiple times, have read the books, gotten the Final Hours app, etc, ect. The fans that are going to have their heads explode at this type of ending.

Then all the guys you are talking about go out and buy ME1 and ME2, purchase the DLC and become BioWare crackheads like the rest of us.

It's possible, however with the way the trilogy has gone from ME2 BW has definitely tried to cater to a more mainstream audience and have tried their best to make sure that those who pick up ME3 as their first game of the trilogy do not feel left out. It would be strange considering that to think that they would have a plot that could be only be comprehended by so very few, I would guess less than 1% of their fanbase.

They could become "uberfans" like you suggest, but more likely they will be confused and put-off and won't want to touch another BW thing again

I'm not sure that the problem is that it can't be comprehended. As others have stated, once you start playing the game while thinking about IT, it's impossible to see the game without it. Once the gigs up, it done. But until people catch on, it's kind of a beautiful thing.

[string3r]

So, I guess IT is pretty much dead at this point.

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

See, the thing is Indoctrination is far far far more complicated than KOTOR twist. Indoctrination is not supposed to be seen through. If 90 % of fans so through BW masterplan it wouldn't be indoctrination at all.

And that's exactly why it fails as a plot device.

Actually, that's why it SUCCEEDS as a plot device.  The point is that the PLAYERS are supposed to be indoctrinated, not just Shepard.  The great majority of people aren't SUPPOSED to have a clue what's going on.  If everyone figured it out, it wouldn't be a plot TWIST.  Some people have to figure it out.  Most are supposed to NOT figure it out, so as to make the twist more powerful.

[Dwailing]

string3r wrote...

So, I guess IT is pretty much dead at this point.

Oh REALLY?  If you don't mind my asking, what do you think we've been talking about for the last 200 or so pages?

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

I understand the point that SubAstris is making. The point I'm making is that BioWare isn't writing this stuff into the game for the average fan that may just be picking up the story at ME3. This theory is geared at the people that played all 3 games multiple times, have read the books, gotten the Final Hours app, etc, ect. The fans that are going to have their heads explode at this type of ending.

Then all the guys you are talking about go out and buy ME1 and ME2, purchase the DLC and become BioWare crackheads like the rest of us.

It's possible, however with the way the trilogy has gone from ME2 BW has definitely tried to cater to a more mainstream audience and have tried their best to make sure that those who pick up ME3 as their first game of the trilogy do not feel left out. It would be strange considering that to think that they would have a plot that could be only be comprehended by so very few, I would guess less than 1% of their fanbase.

They could become "uberfans" like you suggest, but more likely they will be confused and put-off and won't want to touch another BW thing again

If they become confused and put-off, then that's their problem.  That's not BW's problem.

[Auralius Carolus]

Dwailing wrote...

string3r wrote...

So, I guess IT is pretty much dead at this point.

Oh REALLY?  If you don't mind my asking, what do you think we've been talking about for the last 200 or so pages?

Don't you do it... no... don't! Don't you feed that thing, it'll come back and nest under our bridges.

[SubAstris]

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

I understand the point that SubAstris is making. The point I'm making is that BioWare isn't writing this stuff into the game for the average fan that may just be picking up the story at ME3. This theory is geared at the people that played all 3 games multiple times, have read the books, gotten the Final Hours app, etc, ect. The fans that are going to have their heads explode at this type of ending.

Then all the guys you are talking about go out and buy ME1 and ME2, purchase the DLC and become BioWare crackheads like the rest of us.

It's possible, however with the way the trilogy has gone from ME2 BW has definitely tried to cater to a more mainstream audience and have tried their best to make sure that those who pick up ME3 as their first game of the trilogy do not feel left out. It would be strange considering that to think that they would have a plot that could be only be comprehended by so very few, I would guess less than 1% of their fanbase.

They could become "uberfans" like you suggest, but more likely they will be confused and put-off and won't want to touch another BW thing again

I'm not sure that the problem is that it can't be comprehended. As others have stated, once you start playing the game while thinking about IT, it's impossible to see the game without it. Once the gigs up, it done. But until people catch on, it's kind of a beautiful thing.

Can't say I felt the same having tried to play it through while thinking about IT, but fair enough

[RealStyli]

Dwailing wrote...

string3r wrote...

So, I guess IT is pretty much dead at this point.

Oh REALLY?  If you don't mind my asking, what do you think we've been talking about for the last 200 or so pages?

Yep. I really hate posters like that. Obviously trolling for a response. If you say it's dead, please provide proof.

[Ravereth]

Dwailing wrote...

string3r wrote...

So, I guess IT is pretty much dead at this point.

Oh REALLY?  If you don't mind my asking, what do you think we've been talking about for the last 200 or so pages?

Cupcakes and double rainbows?   either that or 

[XanderLav]

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

See, the thing is Indoctrination is far far far more complicated than KOTOR twist. Indoctrination is not supposed to be seen through. If 90 % of fans so through BW masterplan it wouldn't be indoctrination at all.

And that's exactly why it fails as a plot device.

Actually, that's why it SUCCEEDS as a plot device.  The point is that the PLAYERS are supposed to be indoctrinated, not just Shepard.  The great majority of people aren't SUPPOSED to have a clue what's going on.  If everyone figured it out, it wouldn't be a plot TWIST.  Some people have to figure it out.  Most are supposed to NOT figure it out, so as to make the twist more powerful.

I agree with you 100%. You as a player are controling Shepard so bioware writers really had to very accurate here. If IT was intended I dont think they could have made it better. They left a lot of clues and yet it went right under our noses. 

[legaldinho]

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

See, the thing is Indoctrination is far far far more complicated than KOTOR twist. Indoctrination is not supposed to be seen through. If 90 % of fans so through BW masterplan it wouldn't be indoctrination at all.

And that's exactly why it fails as a plot device.

Actually, that's why it SUCCEEDS as a plot device.  The point is that the PLAYERS are supposed to be indoctrinated, not just Shepard.  The great majority of people aren't SUPPOSED to have a clue what's going on.  If everyone figured it out, it wouldn't be a plot TWIST.  Some people have to figure it out.  Most are supposed to NOT figure it out, so as to make the twist more powerful.

Yup, and indeed, the indoctrination interpretation would work much better had the face-value endings been convincing. That would have been something: to buy the endings hook line and sinker... only to eventually be told "did you hear about this theory..." and then seeing it.

First time I saw Total Recall, I swallowed it whole. Then I heard about the parallel interpretation. I now worship that script.

[SubAstris]

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

See, the thing is Indoctrination is far far far more complicated than KOTOR twist. Indoctrination is not supposed to be seen through. If 90 % of fans so through BW masterplan it wouldn't be indoctrination at all.

And that's exactly why it fails as a plot device.

Actually, that's why it SUCCEEDS as a plot device.  The point is that the PLAYERS are supposed to be indoctrinated, not just Shepard.  The great majority of people aren't SUPPOSED to have a clue what's going on.  If everyone figured it out, it wouldn't be a plot TWIST.  Some people have to figure it out.  Most are supposed to NOT figure it out, so as to make the twist more powerful.

If most don't figure it out, then you have lost the bulk of your audience, something a proper storyteller should never do. If your true intention is lost, then that's a big failing

If you are looking for a twist pulled off really well, you have to look at something like the Usual Suspects. You could probably predict what is going to happen before all is revealed if you paid really close attention, but most people, (I suspect ha) didn't really know. People were satisfied with that ending because, although they might have been duped, it was completely clear that they had been and the movie made perfect sense. As we know, things didn't turn out that way for ME3.

Modifié par SubAstris, 30 juin 2012 - 12:19 .

[Rifneno]

So I went looking on google images for a funny "omg teh quote pyramids" picture to help illustrate the "delete key - you highlight stuff and it'll remove it!" campaign I'm starting. A very telling number of the results for quote pyramid came from this forum.

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

See, the thing is Indoctrination is far far far more complicated than KOTOR twist. Indoctrination is not supposed to be seen through. If 90 % of fans so through BW masterplan it wouldn't be indoctrination at all.

And that's exactly why it fails as a plot device.

Actually, that's why it SUCCEEDS as a plot device.  The point is that the PLAYERS are supposed to be indoctrinated, not just Shepard.  The great majority of people aren't SUPPOSED to have a clue what's going on.  If everyone figured it out, it wouldn't be a plot TWIST.  Some people have to figure it out.  Most are supposed to NOT figure it out, so as to make the twist more powerful.

If most don't figure it out, then you have lost the bulk of your audience, something a proper storyteller should never do. If your true intention is lost, then that's a big failing

Actually, didn't you know?  ME3's endings are a work of ART (Considering how much BW has talked about preserving their artistic integrity.).  And not everyone has to understand art.  Besides, they ALREADY made their money off of ME3.

[dark_secret7]

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xavendithas wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I realise. But I must add that the clues are much more dialogue based and therefore harder to miss in KOTOR.  Seriously, how many people are going to look back at the garden compared to a mandatory conversation option?

Given that these games have been designed with multiple playthroughs in mind, I'd wager they knew someone was going to notice that. Especially after the role the kid plays at the end of the game.

I think what subastris is saying is this, in KOTOR the average player would probably be able to piece things together and see that there was foreshadowing. But the average player of Mass Effect is not going to notice the garden disappeared. sure you guys see it but how long have you spent researching the game? it's gone on too long for the average fan to appreciate a twist like IT

See, the thing is Indoctrination is far far far more complicated than KOTOR twist. Indoctrination is not supposed to be seen through. If 90 % of fans so through BW masterplan it wouldn't be indoctrination at all.

And that's exactly why it fails as a plot device.

Actually, that's why it SUCCEEDS as a plot device.  The point is that the PLAYERS are supposed to be indoctrinated, not just Shepard.  The great majority of people aren't SUPPOSED to have a clue what's going on.  If everyone figured it out, it wouldn't be a plot TWIST.  Some people have to figure it out.  Most are supposed to NOT figure it out, so as to make the twist more powerful.

If most don't figure it out, then you have lost the bulk of your audience, something a proper storyteller should never do. If your true intention is lost, then that's a big failing

Uh, no. Think about serial TV shows that progress over time. Bet'cha DLC will add more and more changes to the game until we finally have an alternate way to beat the reapers in the end + potential IT reveal.

[Dwailing]

Rifneno wrote...

So I went looking on google images for a funny "omg teh quote pyramids" picture to help illustrate the "delete key - you highlight stuff and it'll remove it!" campaign I'm starting. A very telling number of the results for quote pyramid came from this forum.

Uh, well, let's all blame paxxton!  jk, jk

Modifié par Dwailing, 30 juin 2012 - 12:18 .