55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Turbo_J]

DJBare wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

If you don't do anything, you die. As I said before, I suspect the Reject ending is the only ending besides the breath scene that takes place in game reality.

The problem is, you do not see Shepard die after rejecting, in destroy Shepard can die with low EMS, both synthesis and control disolve Shepard.

@Rifneno
I'm not so sure, as I said earlier, the fact that all choices are presented by an AI that's obviously got a screw loose makes them all suspect, obviously I'm stating this in hindsight now.

Do you see Shepard after low EMS destory? No. No breath scene. You will never see shep after Reject. It may not be a bullet in the head, but (s)he is basically saying she'll 'go it alone' and 'die free'. Without killing that Indoc. signal beacon, there is no way for the Alliance to launch a rescue. Everyone they send to that beam is done, period.

[HellishFiend]

DJBare wrote...

I have my doubts about destroy now, and the other options are definitely off the list as far as my canon is concerned, but my reason for doubting destroy is that the AI tells us about the option, this is also the greatest indoctrination threat, Shepard's goal throughout the series has been to destroy the reapers, reapers use a victims greatest desires and twists them through indoctrination, if this is Bioware's plan then they have done a good job on me, on my first play through(before EC) I chose synthesis out of confusion and loyalty to EDI and the Geth, by the time I started my second play through(before EC), destroy was definitely the only option I'd take, but after EC, well as I said, the doubts have set in.

I am more on the fence about Reject vs Destroy compared to anything else regarding IT. At first I disregarded Reject entirely, but over time I've slowly started to lean more towards it possibly playing a bigger role in IT than I thought. If Bioware is really going for the Player Indoc thing, which at this point it's safe to say they are, then adding in a 4th option after-the-fact that happens to be the "right" choice makes a morbid kind of sense. 

[Big_Boss9]

comrade gando wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

I swear the thing that kills me the most is Tali saying: Come back to me...

well sorry tali, Harbinger is just enjoying my company too much...

Harbinger just wants to give Shep a great big indoctrinated bear hug ... "THIS HURTS YOU"

aaaghhaahhhhgg *eyes pop out*

ok to add something to the thread: I noticed that the mysterious Leviathan DLC files include more dialogue with starbinger. Why would it include more dialogue with the starbrat? it's at the end of the game! and supposedly leviathan is an extra mission to do on the way to your inevitable doom.

hmm what if these upcoming dlc's add more and more to the starchild conversation until eventually you have enough choices to essentially reveal it's actually harbinger and break out of this insanity? speculations for everyone I know...

Certainly possible that it will add more credence to IT, but at a bare minimum, it appears that it will at least give Shep info about the creators of the Catalyst. Additional dialogue with him makes sense under those circumstances.

[FellishBeast]

Starbuck8 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

Lol that would be telling. I always hear TIM say "the crucibles can control them".

That is actually what he said, but I guess Martin just made a reading error.

OH no wonder
Could mean something, but I doubt it. Most likely a line reading error.

Probably, but don't you think somsone would notice that?

[Starbuck8]

comrade gando wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

I swear the thing that kills me the most is Tali saying: Come back to me...

well sorry tali, Harbinger is just enjoying my company too much...

Harbinger just wants to give Shep a great big indoctrinated bear hug ... "THIS HURTS YOU"

aaaghhaahhhhgg *eyes pop out*

ok to add something to the thread: I noticed that the mysterious Leviathan DLC files include more dialogue with starbinger. Why would it include more dialogue with the starbrat? it's at the end of the game! and supposedly leviathan is an extra mission to do on the way to your inevitable doom.

hmm what if these upcoming dlc's add more and more to the starchild conversation until eventually you have enough choices to essentially reveal it's actually harbinger and break out of this insanity? speculations for everyone I know...

I'm thinking the same thing.

[MegumiAzusa]

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

"Eternal.  Infinite.  Immortal.  The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension." - Sovereign

"We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything." - Sovereign

Yeah, I'm sure control will work out okay.  I don't see any foreshadowing darkness.

More like:
"We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."
"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure."
"Ah, yes. 'Reapers.' The immortal race of sentient starships, allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim."

[OneWithTheAssassins]

I feel the need to repost this since no one replyed.
I've been wondering for a while now on how the IT still works with the EC in place. We still have a lot of evedince that points to IT and wouldn't make sense without IT. I still want to believe in IT, and I think its a smart, intellegent theory. But with the new destroy I can't wrap my head around on how it can still work.

[Starbuck8]

FellishBeast wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

Lol that would be telling. I always hear TIM say "the crucibles can control them".

That is actually what he said, but I guess Martin just made a reading error.

OH no wonder
Could mean something, but I doubt it. Most likely a line reading error.

Probably, but don't you think somsone would notice that?

I would think so. I mean it's the final scene after all... That's why I thought I was hearing it wrong

[Andromidius]

Turbo_J wrote...

As I said before, I suspect the Reject ending is the only ending besides the breath scene that takes place in game reality.

Not sure about that, based on what female Stargazer says about the sacrifices of the last cycle preventing the war in the next.  Its never explained, so its almost like you're being thrown a bone.  A "don't worry, the Reapers still lose - next cycle", but with no explaination.

[Rifneno]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

I feel the need to repost this since no one replyed.
I've been wondering for a while now on how the IT still works with the EC in place. We still have a lot of evedince that points to IT and wouldn't make sense without IT. I still want to believe in IT, and I think its a smart, intellegent theory. But with the new destroy I can't wrap my head around on how it can still work.

Easy: the epilogues are before the breath scene so they're just Shepard's imagination running wild.

[Starbuck8]

HellishFiend wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I have my doubts about destroy now, and the other options are definitely off the list as far as my canon is concerned, but my reason for doubting destroy is that the AI tells us about the option, this is also the greatest indoctrination threat, Shepard's goal throughout the series has been to destroy the reapers, reapers use a victims greatest desires and twists them through indoctrination, if this is Bioware's plan then they have done a good job on me, on my first play through(before EC) I chose synthesis out of confusion and loyalty to EDI and the Geth, by the time I started my second play through(before EC), destroy was definitely the only option I'd take, but after EC, well as I said, the doubts have set in.

I am more on the fence about Reject vs Destroy compared to anything else regarding IT. At first I disregarded Reject entirely, but over time I've slowly started to lean more towards it possibly playing a bigger role in IT than I thought. If Bioware is really going for the Player Indoc thing, which at this point it's safe to say they are, then adding in a 4th option after-the-fact that happens to be the "right" choice makes a morbid kind of sense. 

I'm thinking along the same lines as well atm.

[HellishFiend]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

Lol that would be telling. I always hear TIM say "the crucibles can control them".

That is actually what he said, but I guess Martin just made a reading error.

That's what I assumed at first, but the 's' comes so late that they could have easily taken it out during post. It's almost as if they wanted it snuck in there in a subtle manner. Maybe a hint towards the possibility that the Crucible has been built many times before?

[DJBare]

HellishFiend wrote...

I am more on the fence about Reject vs Destroy compared to anything else regarding IT. At first I disregarded Reject entirely, but over time I've slowly started to lean more towards it possibly playing a bigger role in IT than I thought. If Bioware is really going for the Player Indoc thing, which at this point it's safe to say they are, then adding in a 4th option after-the-fact that happens to be the "right" choice makes a morbid kind of sense. 

So long as it gives my Shepard the chance to pick up his vindicator and get back into the action I'm fine with that

[MegumiAzusa]

Turbo_J wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

If you don't do anything, you die. As I said before, I suspect the Reject ending is the only ending besides the breath scene that takes place in game reality.

The problem is, you do not see Shepard die after rejecting, in destroy Shepard can die with low EMS, both synthesis and control disolve Shepard.

@Rifneno
I'm not so sure, as I said earlier, the fact that all choices are presented by an AI that's obviously got a screw loose makes them all suspect, obviously I'm stating this in hindsight now.

Do you see Shepard after low EMS destory? No. No breath scene. You will never see shep after Reject. It may not be a bullet in the head, but (s)he is basically saying she'll 'go it alone' and 'die free'. Without killing that Indoc. signal beacon, there is no way for the Alliance to launch a rescue. Everyone they send to that beam is done, period.

Or they just don't show it because it would outright confirm IT?

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

Not sure about that, based on what female Stargazer says about the sacrifices of the last cycle preventing the war in the next.  Its never explained, so its almost like you're being thrown a bone.  A "don't worry, the Reapers still lose - next cycle", but with no explaination.

Look at her head.  She's an asari.  And she said they fought that terrible war "so we didn't have to."  Not "so the enemy would be weak enough for us."  It's quite possible the clever wording is meant to imply that Shepard's cycle DID beat the Reapers.  Liara's beacon... well, I doubt she went and retrieved all of them.

[DJBare]

I should stress, I love the psychological theme and truly enjoy the speculations it's caused, but you can only take it so far before it goes from being an entertaining story to a chore, I need to kill something!

[Dancing-Krogan]

comrade gando wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

I swear the thing that kills me the most is Tali saying: Come back to me...

well sorry tali, Harbinger is just enjoying my company too much...

Harbinger just wants to give Shep a great big indoctrinated bear hug ... "THIS HURTS YOU"

aaaghhaahhhhgg *eyes pop out*

ok to add something to the thread: I noticed that the mysterious Leviathan DLC files include more dialogue with starbinger. Why would it include more dialogue with the starbrat? it's at the end of the game! and supposedly leviathan is an extra mission to do on the way to your inevitable doom.

hmm what if these upcoming dlc's add more and more to the starchild conversation until eventually you have enough choices to essentially reveal it's actually harbinger and break out of this insanity? speculations for everyone I know...
Holy mind ****

[HellishFiend]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

"Eternal.  Infinite.  Immortal.  The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension." - Sovereign

"We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything." - Sovereign

Yeah, I'm sure control will work out okay.  I don't see any foreshadowing darkness.

More like:
"We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."
"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure."
"Ah, yes. 'Reapers.' The immortal race of sentient starships, allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim."

Nice connections! I bet that is no coincidence. 

[Big Bad]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

"Eternal.  Infinite.  Immortal.  The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them."

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension." - Sovereign

"We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything." - Sovereign

Yeah, I'm sure control will work out okay.  I don't see any foreshadowing darkness.

More like:
"We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."
"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure."
"Ah, yes. 'Reapers.' The immortal race of sentient starships, allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim."

It's quotes like these that really make me bristle at the thought that Sovereign & Co. were really looking out for our best interests all along.  Regardless of what Bioware does with the remaining DLC, I don't think I'll ever be able to accept that the Reapers have noble intentions. 

[Domanese]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

I've been wondering for a while now on how the IT still works with the EC in place. We still have a lot of evedince that points to IT and wouldn't make sense without IT. I still want to believe in IT, and I think its a smart, intellegent theory. But with the new destroy I can't wrap my head around on how it can still work.

I'll try and explain. Simply put it's just more detail on what Shepard hopes for. That he makes the correct choice regardless of destroy, control or synthesis but the breathing scene is still in place hinting that it's still just a hallucination and that Shepard broke through the indoctrination rather then simply remaining in active and defiant against Starchild/Harbinger. If Shepard simply rejects the options then he cannot break free because Habringer simply pulls the plug on Shepard rather then waste any more time on him.

So why pick Destroy? Because that is the part of Shepard's conscious not influenced by indoctrination as it is the original goal and sticks to the establish continuity. Thats what the choices are. Not choosing means Shepard flat out dies.

As for the EC killing the IT that can be debunked as well by saying that Bioware did confirm they needed six months to do everything they wanted. EA gave them three. So they gave us the bare bones endings and hoped that would be enough. So the EC was put into action and effectively gave bioware the three months they needed to give the complete game. If Bioware had gotten those six months this would have been the result.

And IT still would have existed because people would have still gone searching for answers as to why all this happens anyway. The only difference is we started looking three months earlier then just now.

Modifié par Domanese, 30 juin 2012 - 02:25 .

[Starbuck8]

HellishFiend wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

Lol that would be telling. I always hear TIM say "the crucibles can control them".

That is actually what he said, but I guess Martin just made a reading error.

That's what I assumed at first, but the 's' comes so late that they could have easily taken it out during post. It's almost as if they wanted it snuck in there in a subtle manner. Maybe a hint towards the possibility that the Crucible has been built many times before?

At the risk of extreme speculation, when I heard the "crucibles" I thought he had made one himself or something. Then chalked it up to hearing wrong

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

As I said before, I suspect the Reject ending is the only ending besides the breath scene that takes place in game reality.

Not sure about that, based on what female Stargazer says about the sacrifices of the last cycle preventing the war in the next.  Its never explained, so its almost like you're being thrown a bone.  A "don't worry, the Reapers still lose - next cycle", but with no explaination.

It is NEVER specifically stated that it is the next cycle. It only tells us of "who came before us" which could just mean it's the xth generation since then.

[comrade gando]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

I feel the need to repost this since no one replyed.
I've been wondering for a while now on how the IT still works with the EC in place. We still have a lot of evedince that points to IT and wouldn't make sense without IT. I still want to believe in IT, and I think its a smart, intellegent theory. But with the new destroy I can't wrap my head around on how it can still work.

ah, well assuming that these "endings" are indeed dreams, we still shepard wake up at the end of destroy. I can only assume that he is waking up on earth, but can't imagine how in the world he survived an exploding space station as well as the fall to earth intact. there's just no way. this cutscene is also in the original pre-EC endings. I can only assume he is waking up from Harbinger's indoctrination attempt to finish the fight which is yet to come (best case scenario). very wishful thinking of course, however I refuse to believe that bioware could screw up the endings this bad, it's SUSPICIOUSLY bad honestly... at least I think so.

I understand that it is deemed to be a weak plot device for a certain event to just be a dream, but considering the circumstances: invincible alien overlords capable of influencing organic minds to join their cause, basically make them go insane (Cthulu anyone?), I'd say it's an effective- no, SUPER effective literary technique to bridge the gap between fictional character and the player themself and make the player FEEL like he himself... may be indoctrinated.


orrrr bioware could be lazy pieces of crap... we're just getting started here I think

[byne]

Rifneno wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Not sure about that, based on what female Stargazer says about the sacrifices of the last cycle preventing the war in the next.  Its never explained, so its almost like you're being thrown a bone.  A "don't worry, the Reapers still lose - next cycle", but with no explaination.

Look at her head.  She's an asari.  And she said they fought that terrible war "so we didn't have to."  Not "so the enemy would be weak enough for us."  It's quite possible the clever wording is meant to imply that Shepard's cycle DID beat the Reapers.  Liara's beacon... well, I doubt she went and retrieved all of them.

Plus, the ending message still says that Shepard has become a legend by defeating the Reaper threat, and literalists have always assured us that the end message would never lie.

[MegumiAzusa]

Starbuck8 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw in the Control ending where the Shepard construct is saying "Eternal. Infinite. Immortal." wo I always mishear/misread it as "Eternal. Infinite. Immoral."?

Lol that would be telling. I always hear TIM say "the crucibles can control them".

That is actually what he said, but I guess Martin just made a reading error.

That's what I assumed at first, but the 's' comes so late that they could have easily taken it out during post. It's almost as if they wanted it snuck in there in a subtle manner. Maybe a hint towards the possibility that the Crucible has been built many times before?

At the risk of extreme speculation, when I heard the "crucibles" I thought he had made one himself or something. Then chalked it up to hearing wrong

Yeah, I never play with subtitles (I haaaate them) And this was one of the times I went and checked because it was so weird... the subtitles state crucible, but he's clearly saying crucibles.