55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromidius]

dreamgazer wrote...

The entire game, the Normandy has been away from battle to service Shepard's agenda. The attachment is there. The loyalty from the crew is there. That's not something easy to dismiss.

Hense its a good angle for the Reapers to manipulate Shepard's emotions.  Make sure Shepard is aware that the Normandy and all Shep's friends and allies are safe...  Then give a beatdown to make sure Shep doesn't overthink what just happened.  Then distract Shep with a confrontation with TIM and Anderson, before finally dropping the 'choices' on top of it all and insisting there's no time to properly discuss it.

[Nightingale]

DrTsoni wrote...
*snip*
Harbinger not destorying the Normandy...all I can think is that they still need Shepard. Initially, I thought this would only apply to IT. But thinking about it, Starchild says they need Shepard for Synthesis. The Reapers want Synthesis, so perhaps they're not attacking the Normandy at the beginning because they want Shepard to make it to the Crucible and bring about their "final stage of evolution" even at the risk of their own destruction. They may believe that, after everything Shepard's done, that they can make them see why Synthesis is for the best. As for not destorying Normandy at the end, they either didn't want to risk Shepard's life in the explosion when it was too close and didn't get the chance once the stealth systems were active when it was flying away, or they wanted Shepard to have something to fight for. A reason to choose what they wanted and save everyone. If EDI is alive - which would mean keeping the Normandy intact - then they may see this as leverage.
*more snip*

DrTsoni wrote...
*snip again*
A few pages back we were
talking about how he may have been close by (at the FOB) anyway, so that
wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
*and again*

DrTsoni wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

It's right as he drops off your shuttle. 

It's
not out of the question then, that he'd break off and be in Earth's
atmosphere rather than in orbit with Sword. He'd already be heading
closer to the beam, too, once he got the order to intercept the Reapers
leaving that fight.

And links so it's not as out of context as you think...
http://social.biowar...2/1290#12822283
Uh...can't find the other one. It's the last two/three pages though.

[Simon_Says]

DrTsoni wrote...

If that's the case, where does the hallucination start? When Harbinger says "Serve us" would be the most obvious, and I don't know that they'd have two fake goodbyes with the teammates. So the Mako crash?

A hallucination/dream sequence isn't neccesary anymore with EC. In fact the EC actually makes it possible to interpret the whole ending as happening in-reality yet still fit with the primary themes of Indoc Theory. The only problem being that it's more likely that the breath scene takes place on Earth rather than on the Citadel, but information regarding that isn't concrete.

[masster blaster]

Has anybody imported the Normandy not even upgraded at all and did anybody ever try not to improve the Normandys enggiens at all im ME2 and ME3. It's just that Bioware siad have you played all possibilitys of the endgame out come. So ya and what if you really don't do anything to improve the Crucible in ME3. Does the Catalyst say it look okay or does it say it does not look compatable to do anything.

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

alittlewren wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Just checked what they changed in the dream: Shepard now looks totally confused and freaked out when she sees herself. Before she was just standing there pretty emotionless.

Pardon me, I don't normally post on the forums, but I've been somewhat following this discussion since ME3 came out (you guys are great!), and I've also been wondering if they changed anything about the last dream sequence. With my paragon, Kaidan-romanced femshep, with EC installed, I was able to produce two versions of the dream, seemingly depending on my answer to Kaidan's question, "Shepard, you know that you've done everything you could, right?" 

If I answer with the top option, "Everything?" I get the dream sequence where Shepard's facial animations remain calm and relaxed.  

If I answer with the bottom option, "Absolutely." I get the dream sequence where Shepard's facial animations become confused and distressed. 

I'm not sure if it's only linked to conversation answers, but so far I've only been able to replicate those results reliably with those two options. I also don't know if these two versions may have already been there before the EC; all I'm sure of is that I've never noticed it before EC. Does anyone know how to verify this? It's been bugging me since I saw this topic pop up here, and I noticed the difference myself.  If anyone's interested and I have time later, I can upload the two versions to youtube. 

This is really interesting. Have those videos been uploaded yet? I'm going to go back to my game now and check it out... I always remembered my Shep being reasonably horrified in every dream sequence, but perhaps it has been made much more so now depending on the choice?

[Andromidius]

Simon_Says wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

If that's the case, where does the hallucination start? When Harbinger says "Serve us" would be the most obvious, and I don't know that they'd have two fake goodbyes with the teammates. So the Mako crash?

A hallucination/dream sequence isn't neccesary anymore with EC. In fact the EC actually makes it possible to interpret the whole ending as happening in-reality yet still fit with the primary themes of Indoc Theory. The only problem being that it's more likely that the breath scene takes place on Earth rather than on the Citadel, but information regarding that isn't concrete.

Though even at face value, Shep is definately seeing weird stuff going on.  Even if we're just going by minor out of the way details, like the piles of bodies, the shrubs, etc.

[Nightingale]

alittlewren wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Thanks for the links, though now I'm even less sure. It's been confirmed that it's new. No exact answer as to why, but I imagine it's for IT or at the very least to make a point of Shepard's state of mind. What was your EMS? That may have something to do with it, too.

Interesting... well my EMS is 5584, TMS 7865, and current readiness 72%. Hope someone's able to pinpoint it.  

Hm...It shouldn't matter that high. I'll check again with 9000+ tomorrow, if it's not figured out by then.

Andromidius wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...
If that's
the case, where does the hallucination start? When Harbinger says "Serve
us" would be the most obvious, and I don't know that they'd have two fake goodbyes with the teammates. So the Mako crash?

That's my guess, yeah.  Though its hard to tell.

I think that's the point

And Hellish, I didn't adress it in either post, sorry. I'm not going to contradict how they could've done things because there's always going to be other/better ways. I'm not saying it's bad writing, I'm just saying there may have been a reason they did it the way they did.

[LT123]

Got it.

Shepard's expression in the third dream sequence is not determined by dialogue options.

Skipped all dialogue in the romance conversation, picked all the Paragon responses, stood still in the dream. Alt-tabbed out, quit, restarted game each time after seeing Shepard's expression at the end of the dream.

Results:

1) distressed
2) calm
3) distressed
4) calm
5) distressed

So as far as I can tell, the game switches back and forth between each expression regardless of the dialogue options chosen.

[Simon_Says]

Andromidius wrote...

Though even at face value, Shep is definately seeing weird stuff going on.  Even if we're just going by minor out of the way details, like the piles of bodies, the shrubs, etc.

Derelict Reaper mission confirmed that indoctrination can cause waking hallucinations.

[Nightingale]

LT123 wrote...

Got it.

Shepard's expression in the third dream sequence is not determined by dialogue options.

Skipped all dialogue in the romance conversation, picked all the Paragon responses, stood still in the dream. Alt-tabbed out, quit, restarted game each time after seeing Shepard's expression at the end of the dream.

Results:

1) distressed
2) calm
3) distressed
4) calm
5) distressed

So as far as I can tell, the game switches back and forth between each expression regardless of the dialogue options chosen.

Well, I guess that answers that. I wonder why they decided to do it that way, though

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

Also if you think about Shepard being Indoctrinated you the player Are Shepard so ya we the player are being indoctrinated becaues we see eveything and we are learning in the game about every little pieces of evidince about the game.

We are also Shepard's voice in his/her head because they give us control of Shepard's actions and when we tell Shepard to do something Shepard does it.

And Shepard does not believe he/she is Indoctrinated because we the player like I said are suppost to know what's happening right now if you paid attention to every scrap of codex/ storyline of the game.

And does it stike you that. Shepard can't just say " ya I am being Indoctrinated" and didn't Saren, and Tim believe they weren't being indoctrinated also/refufing to believe it happening. Get it Refuse/Reject and how many players did not want to believe that their Shepard can not be Indoctinated because he/she is their Shepard and their is no way that their Shepard would fall for it. So they deni it as did Tim and Saren did to, and say Shepard is immune to Indoctrination, because Shepard is the Hero and that's it.

But heros can fall into darkness and dispare at time even though they might not know it but they show it by their actions and thoughts.

[masster blaster]

Please read what I have to say. I read what you have to say so please do so to.

[HellishFiend]

LT123 wrote...

Got it.

Shepard's expression in the third dream sequence is not determined by dialogue options.

Skipped all dialogue in the romance conversation, picked all the Paragon responses, stood still in the dream. Alt-tabbed out, quit, restarted game each time after seeing Shepard's expression at the end of the dream.

Results:

1) distressed
2) calm
3) distressed
4) calm
5) distressed

So as far as I can tell, the game switches back and forth between each expression regardless of the dialogue options chosen.

Good work!

Unfortunately that leaves us even more confused than before we started... 

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

But you are pointing at but a single aspect of the situation and using that as justification for your belief that the scene is real. When putting all of it together, it paints a picture that makes it appear that BW wants you to question the reality of it.

Well obviously some of us aren't getting it. Care to list an event-by-event breakdown so that we can finally get the big picture of what you're talking about? Because it looks to me like every oddity with Earth has a reasonable non-dream justification, even it's just a waking hallucination and not a dreaming one.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 30 juin 2012 - 05:22 .

[Starbuck8]

LT123 wrote...

Well, more on the dream stuff.

I'm not sure *what* determines Shepard's expression, but it's not tied to the dialogue options.
I just ran the same set (Paragon, Paragon, Paragon, clothes come off) three times in a row and got distressed Shep, calm Shep, distressed Shep.

I've been alt-tabbing out, quitting, and then restarting the game after each dream.

Hmm, that seems either random or bugged.

[LT123]

DrTsoni wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Got it.

Shepard's expression in the third dream sequence is not determined by dialogue options.

Skipped all dialogue in the romance conversation, picked all the Paragon responses, stood still in the dream. Alt-tabbed out, quit, restarted game each time after seeing Shepard's expression at the end of the dream.

Results:

1) distressed
2) calm
3) distressed
4) calm
5) distressed

So as far as I can tell, the game switches back and forth between each expression regardless of the dialogue options chosen.

Well, I guess that answers that. I wonder why they decided to do it that way, though

I know, right? I figured it would be tied either to that first response ("Everything?" or "Absolutely") or the last one, but nope.

[Nightingale]

LT123 wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Got it.

Shepard's expression in the third dream sequence is not determined by dialogue options.

Skipped all dialogue in the romance conversation, picked all the Paragon responses, stood still in the dream. Alt-tabbed out, quit, restarted game each time after seeing Shepard's expression at the end of the dream.

Results:

1) distressed
2) calm
3) distressed
4) calm
5) distressed

So as far as I can tell, the game switches back and forth between each expression regardless of the dialogue options chosen.

Well, I guess that answers that. I wonder why they decided to do it that way, though

I know, right? I figured it would be tied either to that first response ("Everything?" or "Absolutely") or the last one, but nope.

Yeah, I really thought it was that, too. Maybe it's like that because some people didn't have a romance at all to have that conversation with? Don't know, but thanks for checking

[Simon_Says]

masster blaster wrote...

Also if you think about Shepard being Indoctrinated you the player Are Shepard so ya we the player are being indoctrinated becaues we see eveything and we are learning in the game about every little pieces of evidince about the game.

We are also Shepard's voice in his/her head because they give us control of Shepard's actions and when we tell Shepard to do something Shepard does it.

And Shepard does not believe he/she is Indoctrinated because we the player like I said are suppost to know what's happening right now if you paid attention to every scrap of codex/ storyline of the game.

And does it stike you that. Shepard can't just say " ya I am being Indoctrinated" and didn't Saren, and Tim believe they weren't being indoctrinated also/refufing to believe it happening. Get it Refuse/Reject and how many players did not want to believe that their Shepard can not be Indoctinated because he/she is their Shepard and their is no way that their Shepard would fall for it. So they deni it as did Tim and Saren did to, and say Shepard is immune to Indoctrination, because Shepard is the Hero and that's it.

But heros can fall into darkness and dispare at time even though they might not know it but they show it by their actions and thoughts.

What I'm getting from this is that... reject is basically a denial of being indoctrinated, and thus another failure state.

... This may merit more thought. I'll get back to this.

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The entire game, the Normandy has been away from battle to service Shepard's agenda. The attachment is there. The loyalty from the crew is there. That's not something easy to dismiss.

But you are pointing at but a single aspect of the situation and using that as justification for your belief that the scene is real. When putting all of it together, it paints a picture that makes it appear that BW wants you to question the reality of it. Real Lokanaiya and Andromidius' posts. They know what theyre talking about. And BW are professional writers. They get paid lots of money to script these scenes. They dont script scenes that make you jump through mental hoops to justify the face value of a situation unless they want you to question the face value of a situation. Anything they want you to take as real is easy to digest and doesnt leave you thinking "huh?"

Assuming that Joker flies closer isn't that far-fetched, in my opinion.  Doesn't take many hoops to jump through.

I understand the Normandy's prowess.  I also understand the attachment to Shepard, and the immediacy of the situation. And I understand BioWare's skew towards emotion.

[Andromidius]

Simon_Says wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Though even at face value, Shep is definately seeing weird stuff going on.  Even if we're just going by minor out of the way details, like the piles of bodies, the shrubs, etc.

Derelict Reaper mission confirmed that indoctrination can cause waking hallucinations.

Indeed!

I think its a fair line of discussion to see whether we can discard full dream-hallucinations from the theory, so long as we still keep waking hallucinations.

Only problem is the breath scene (again...).  To explain it with the rest of the ending being 'real', it would either have to be:

1/ A dream itself, seperate from everything else (which is clunky as hell, no idea how it would fit into the narrative).
2/ Its not Shepard, but someone else (but then why show it?  And why do they look like Shep?).
3/ It is Shepard, but its somewhere on the Citadel (which is very unlikely due to the concrete and the massive explosion).
4/ Shepard somehow made it back to the conduit and it beamed him/her back down to London (unlikely due to the explosion and the fact we're not shown it its a two way system).

So...  Thoughts?

[Nightingale]

Hellish, for the record, I'm really not arguing IT. I still support it, I'm just trying to figure out what I perceive as where the hallucinations start. It's possible it's intermittent but I'm not sure I believe it all starts at the Mako. If that's when it start being a dream, then how'd Shepard end up outside the Mako to be in the rubble next to it (and with it covered in blood) when s/he wakes up?

[masster blaster]

Also if you don't mind reading what I have on page 1411 thought would be great and is it just me or did we trust synthetics to much. Think about it Bioware wanted us to feel sorry for the geth and edi and it worked and now the catalyst is trying to say the reapers are not as evil as you think just like the geth were considered with the reaper but they were proven wronged because they used logic and evidence to explain why they did what they did, just like the catalyst is doing right now with Shepard.

[FellishBeast]

DrTsoni wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

It's not out of the question then, that he'd break off and be in Earth's atmosphere rather than in orbit with Sword. He'd already be heading closer to the beam, too, once he got the order to intercept the Reapers leaving that fight.

Seems like we're getting dangerously close to "bad/lazy writing" here. Especially when you consider that one of the ones that can leave is Javik. Javik would sooner put a bullet through Shepard's eyes than let him stand between him and the destruction of the Reapers. 

Not if he believes Shepard's either going to fail and get them all killed (in which case, he'd be more than happy to get out and live to fight another day - we've already seen this just by the fact he's alive now) or that Shepard can handle it alone....and if she can't, then it's better he's nowhere near her screw-up So, essentially what I'm saying is, he's not going to die here willingly and getting out and leaving this vague hope the Crucible will destroy them to Shepard is enough for now. If he dies, he can't help - this cycle or the next, if it comes to that.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Doctor. Javik gets made if you kill a Reaper without him, I don't think he would let Shepard go. It's his only purpose in being alive and this is seen as their only shot. It's way out of character.

[Simon_Says]

Andromidius wrote...

I think its a fair line of discussion to see whether we can discard full dream-hallucinations from the theory, so long as we still keep waking hallucinations.

Only problem is the breath scene (again...).  To explain it with the rest of the ending being 'real', it would either have to be:

1/ A dream itself, seperate from everything else (which is clunky as hell, no idea how it would fit into the narrative).
2/ Its not Shepard, but someone else (but then why show it?  And why do they look like Shep?).
3/ It is Shepard, but its somewhere on the Citadel (which is very unlikely due to the concrete and the massive explosion).
4/ Shepard somehow made it back to the conduit and it beamed him/her back down to London (unlikely due to the explosion and the fact we're not shown it its a two way system).

So...  Thoughts?

1 is just absurd.

2 is false. It's Shepard alright, file name confirms it.

3 is still a possibility. Unlikely, but still not impossible. I know a lot of people think otherwise, but I advise them to take another look and tell me they really can be 100% sure of what they see behind all that blur and fog.

4... well I think there was a note somewhere that implied that it was a two-way system. But yeah, doubtful that Shepard would still be walking after all they've been through.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 30 juin 2012 - 05:29 .

[FellishBeast]

DrTsoni wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

It's not out of the question then, that he'd break off and be in Earth's atmosphere rather than in orbit with Sword. He'd already be heading closer to the beam, too, once he got the order to intercept the Reapers leaving that fight.

Seems like we're getting dangerously close to "bad/lazy writing" here. Especially when you consider that one of the ones that can leave is Javik. Javik would sooner put a bullet through Shepard's eyes than let him stand between him and the destruction of the Reapers. 

Not if he believes Shepard's either going to fail and get them all killed (in which case, he'd be more than happy to get out and live to fight another day - we've already seen this just by the fact he's alive now) or that Shepard can handle it alone....and if she can't, then it's better he's nowhere near her screw-up So, essentially what I'm saying is, he's not going to die here willingly and getting out and leaving this vague hope the Crucible will destroy them to Shepard is enough for now. If he dies, he can't help - this cycle or the next, if it comes to that.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Doctor. Javik gets made if you kill a Reaper without him, I don't think he would let Shepard go. It's his only purpose in being alive and this is seen as their only shot. It's way out of character.