55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromidius]

DrTsoni wrote...

Hellish, for the record, I'm really not arguing IT. I still support it, I'm just trying to figure out what I perceive as where the hallucinations start. It's possible it's intermittent but I'm not sure I believe it all starts at the Mako. If that's when it start being a dream, then how'd Shepard end up outside the Mako to be in the rubble next to it (and with it covered in blood) when s/he wakes up?

Someone could have pulled Shep out of the wreckage and tried to revive him/her.  The fact we hear what sounds like a defribrilator might suggest outside noises seeping into the dream.  Not to mention other sounds that sounds suspitiously like a battle...

[Andromidius]

Simon_Says wrote...

1 is just absurd.

2 is false. It's Shepard alright, file name confirms it.

3 is still a possibility. Unlikely, but still not impossible. I know a lot of people think otherwise, but I advise them to take another look and tell me they really can be 100% sure.

4... well I think there was a note somewhere that implied that it was a two-way system. But yeah, doubtful that Shepard would still be walking after all they've been through.

Yeah, just trying to think of ANYTHING really, even stupid stuff.

1/ I agree, wrong.
2/ I agree, wrong.
3/ I agree, very unlikely.
4/ Unsure, very shakey concept.

Can't think of anything else to suggest though...

Other then 'Shep falls from the Citadel and lands on Earth safely'.  Which is laughable.

Modifié par Andromidius, 30 juin 2012 - 05:30 .

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

...People still believe this?

[Nightingale]

Andromidius wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Though even at face value, Shep is definately seeing weird stuff going on.  Even if we're just going by minor out of the way details, like the piles of bodies, the shrubs, etc.

Derelict Reaper mission confirmed that indoctrination can cause waking hallucinations.

Indeed!

I think its a fair line of discussion to see whether we can discard full dream-hallucinations from the theory, so long as we still keep waking hallucinations.

Only problem is the breath scene (again...).  To explain it with the rest of the ending being 'real', it would either have to be:

1/ A dream itself, seperate from everything else (which is clunky as hell, no idea how it would fit into the narrative).
2/ Its not Shepard, but someone else (but then why show it?  And why do they look like Shep?).
3/ It is Shepard, but its somewhere on the Citadel (which is very unlikely due to the concrete and the massive explosion).
4/ Shepard somehow made it back to the conduit and it beamed him/her back down to London (unlikely due to the explosion and the fact we're not shown it its a two way system).

So...  Thoughts?

I don't think it's a dream. Why would they show a dream of Shepard waking up from a dream or hallucination? I don't think it's someone other than Shepard, either. The guide says it's her/him but more than that, it's the same armour. I doubt it's on the Citadel, but from the EC we can confirm that it wasn't so heavily damaged that it's impossible. As for the fourth...yeah, I doubt that too

[Simon_Says]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

...People still believe this?

People still think indoctrination is best explanation of what we were shown? Yes.

[Starbuck8]

DrTsoni wrote...

LT123 wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Got it.

Shepard's expression in the third dream sequence is not determined by dialogue options.

Skipped all dialogue in the romance conversation, picked all the Paragon responses, stood still in the dream. Alt-tabbed out, quit, restarted game each time after seeing Shepard's expression at the end of the dream.

Results:

1) distressed
2) calm
3) distressed
4) calm
5) distressed

So as far as I can tell, the game switches back and forth between each expression regardless of the dialogue options chosen.

Well, I guess that answers that. I wonder why they decided to do it that way, though

I know, right? I figured it would be tied either to that first response ("Everything?" or "Absolutely") or the last one, but nope.

Yeah, I really thought it was that, too. Maybe it's like that because some people didn't have a romance at all to have that conversation with? Don't know, but thanks for checking

More I think about it, it seems like bugged variable setting? It sounds very reliable that it switches. It seems to be switching the variable on and off to give you that facial expression. Like with a certain dialogue choice, paragon, it's supposed to switch the terrified face on, but upon reloading it's still set to "on" and instead of leaving it, turns it back "off". Hope that makes sense? Someone that is more versed in how the game saves variables feel free to correct me. Perhaps some testing by using the renegade choice can prove/disprove this hypothesis.

[Andromidius]

DrTsoni wrote...
I don't think it's a dream. Why would they show a dream of Shepard waking up from a dream or hallucination? I don't think it's someone other than Shepard, either. The guide says it's her/him but more than that, it's the same armour. I doubt it's on the Citadel, but from the EC we can confirm that it wasn't so heavily damaged that it's impossible. As for the fourth...yeah, I doubt that too

Yeah, this is my problem with a literal ending - I seriously can't think of a plausible way for Shepard to survive Destroy and appear back on London.

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

Also if you don't mind reading what I have on page 1411 thought would be great and is it just me or did we trust synthetics to much. Think about it Bioware wanted us to feel sorry for the geth and edi and it worked and now the catalyst is trying to say the reapers are not as evil as you think just like the geth were considered with the reaper but they were proven wronged because they used logic and evidence to explain why they did what they did, just like the catalyst is doing right now with Shepard.

[Nightingale]

Andromidius wrote...
Someone could have pulled Shep out of the wreckage and tried to revive him/her.  The fact we hear what sounds like a defribrilator might suggest outside noises seeping into the dream.  Not to mention other sounds that sounds suspitiously like a battle...

FellishBeast wrote...

I'm going to have to disagree with
you, Doctor. Javik gets made if you kill a Reaper without him, I don't
think he would let Shepard go. It's his only purpose in being alive and
this is seen as their only shot. It's way out of character.

You both have very fair points.

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

...People still believe this?

Wish I could feed you more, but I'm off to bed in a few minutes.

[alittlewren]

LT123 wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Got it.

Shepard's expression in the third dream sequence is not determined by dialogue options.

Skipped all dialogue in the romance conversation, picked all the Paragon responses, stood still in the dream. Alt-tabbed out, quit, restarted game each time after seeing Shepard's expression at the end of the dream.

Results:

1) distressed
2) calm
3) distressed
4) calm
5) distressed

So as far as I can tell, the game switches back and forth between each expression regardless of the dialogue options chosen.

Well, I guess that answers that. I wonder why they decided to do it that way, though

I know, right? I figured it would be tied either to that first response ("Everything?" or "Absolutely") or the last one, but nope.

Wow, that makes a lot of sense as I think my attempts must have alternated. Looks like I suffered from a bit of confirmation bias. So sorry--I didn't mean to send anyone on a wild goose chase. 

It's disheartening to find that these different versions aren't linked to anything at all. I wonder if they will be later used as an indicator of something after a later DLC or patch. At the very least, it's interesting to note that the two versions exist at all and were apparently added in with the EC. 

Edit: Okay, so I just did a few test runs without restarting the game (as I did originally) and also skipping dialogue (I did not skip anything originally), and while I'm not getting the versions alternating, I am getting a mixed bag of results.

Attempt 1: All renegade, calm.
Attempt 2: All renegade, calm.
Attempt 3: All paragon, calm.
Attempt 4: All paragon, distressed.
Attempt 5: All paragon, calm.
Attempt 6: Renegade, Paragon, Paragon, calm. 

So it appears that although it probably didn't alternate for me originally while I was trying new things, (maybe because I didn't restart the game?) I still likely reached my conclusion by chance. Anyway, thanks for including me in this discussion. :happy: 

Modifié par alittlewren, 30 juin 2012 - 06:30 .

[Simon_Says]

Andromidius wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...
I don't think it's a dream. Why would they show a dream of Shepard waking up from a dream or hallucination? I don't think it's someone other than Shepard, either. The guide says it's her/him but more than that, it's the same armour. I doubt it's on the Citadel, but from the EC we can confirm that it wasn't so heavily damaged that it's impossible. As for the fourth...yeah, I doubt that too

Yeah, this is my problem with a literal ending - I seriously can't think of a plausible way for Shepard to survive Destroy and appear back on London.

Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be the truth.

Seems there are two broad possibilities.

Either Shepard was in London, dreaming. If Spooky Action At A Distance was not involved, the crucible hasn't been fired yet and the game is still unfinished.

Or Shepard is on the Citadel, and was awake more or less the whole time. The crucible was fired. Galaxy is damned or saved. Series has reached its conclusion.

[Nightingale]

Starbuck8 wrote...
More I think about it, it seems like bugged variable setting? It sounds very reliable that it switches. It seems to be switching the variable on and off to give you that facial expression. Like with a certain dialogue choice, paragon, it's supposed to switch the terrified face on, but upon reloading it's still set to "on" and instead of leaving it, turns it back "off". Hope that makes sense? Someone that is more versed in how the game saves variables feel free to correct me. Perhaps some testing by using the renegade choice can prove/disprove this hypothesis.

Ahh, you may be right there too...If this is the case, it's a glitch. I'm not sure how to check for that either, though, and I couldn't even if I wanted to. Really wishing I'd just bought the PC version now, since I already have the other two for it...

[Lokanaiya]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

But you are pointing at but a single aspect of the situation and using that as justification for your belief that the scene is real. When putting all of it together, it paints a picture that makes it appear that BW wants you to question the reality of it.

Well obviously some of us aren't getting it. Care to list an event-by-event breakdown so that we can finally get the big picture of what you're talking about? Because it looks to me like every oddity with Earth has a reasonable non-dream justification, even it's just a waking hallucination and not a dreaming one.

Bioware specifically shows us something to which our first impression is almost certainly "WTF?" They want us to question whether or not that's real-- Harbinger may refrain from shooting down the Normandy because of the reasons you mentioned, but the real root of the question isn't whether he would or not, it's why Bioware would make it that way. As I said before, everything has a reason, especially in video games. It took me 10 minutes to come up with that simple script for an alternate MAKO crash that would end up in the space place as the current one, and the only difference would be the absence of the "WTF?" reaction. I think Bioware, with its team of professional writers who gave us things like Rannoch and Tuchanka just in ME3, not even getting into ME1&2, would be able to come up with something better than I could. Before anyone says "plot armor!" or anything to that effect, I speak from personal experience when saying that a good writer knows how to avoid those situations, and Bioware definitely has writers better than me, at the very least.

By the way, just for future reference, I'm a girl.

[Nightingale]

Simon_Says wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...
I don't think it's a dream. Why would they show a dream of Shepard waking up from a dream or hallucination? I don't think it's someone other than Shepard, either. The guide says it's her/him but more than that, it's the same armour. I doubt it's on the Citadel, but from the EC we can confirm that it wasn't so heavily damaged that it's impossible. As for the fourth...yeah, I doubt that too

Yeah, this is my problem with a literal ending - I seriously can't think of a plausible way for Shepard to survive Destroy and appear back on London.

Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be the truth.

Seems there are two broad possibilities.

Either Shepard was in London, dreaming. If Spooky Action At A Distance was not involved, the crucible hasn't been fired yet and the game is still unfinished.

Or Shepard is on the Citadel, and was awake more or less the whole time. The crucible was fired. Galaxy is damned or saved. Series has reached its conclusion.

What qualifies as Spooky Action at a Distance, though? Either way, that's more of an interpretation, too. If EA really wants to milk ME for all it's worth, it's probably the first. From an IT standpoint, however, either one could be true. It'd be the second from a literalist POV.

[Andromidius]

Simon_Says wrote...
Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be the truth.

Seems there are two broad possibilities.

Either Shepard was in London, dreaming. If Spooky Action At A Distance was not involved, the crucible hasn't been fired yet and the game is still unfinished.

Or Shepard is on the Citadel, and was awake more or less the whole time. The crucible was fired. Galaxy is damned or saved. Series has reached its conclusion.

I suppose another explaination could be Shepard is on the Citadel, but is hallucinating that the wreckage around him/her is actually the concrete rubble of London.

Though quite WHY would be another matter.

I'd be more inclined to go with dreaming in London, with no current ending (but a nice cliffhanger).

The second option would be fine without Breath.  Damn that scene.

[HellishFiend]

DrTsoni wrote...

Hellish, for the record, I'm really not arguing IT. I still support it, I'm just trying to figure out what I perceive as where the hallucinations start. It's possible it's intermittent but I'm not sure I believe it all starts at the Mako. If that's when it start being a dream, then how'd Shepard end up outside the Mako to be in the rubble next to it (and with it covered in blood) when s/he wakes up?

Sorry, I was afk a bit. Not ignoring you. 

And yeah, I understand. I will probably be making videos for as long as IT remains unconfirmed (or until I get too busy to keep doing them), and that might be a good subject to cover. 

[masster blaster]

Please can anyone reply to my topics on page 1411 and 1412 and for the record I am a guy and 8 have voice to you now and I point out good facts that support IT rather than disprove it.

[HellishFiend]

masster blaster wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also if you don't mind reading what I have on page 1411 thought would be great and is it just me or did we trust synthetics to much. Think about it Bioware wanted us to feel sorry for the geth and edi and it worked and now the catalyst is trying to say the reapers are not as evil as you think just like the geth were considered with the reaper but they were proven wronged because they used logic and evidence to explain why they did what they did, just like the catalyst is doing right now with Shepard.

I'll keep an eye on it but I'm inclined to think that the Synthetics are legitimate protagonists in the story. Their story arc follows a fairly straightforward flow from misunderstood to ally. And their theme is very important to "debunking" the Starchild's bad arguments. 

[Starbuck8]

DrTsoni wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...
More I think about it, it seems like bugged variable setting? It sounds very reliable that it switches. It seems to be switching the variable on and off to give you that facial expression. Like with a certain dialogue choice, paragon, it's supposed to switch the terrified face on, but upon reloading it's still set to "on" and instead of leaving it, turns it back "off". Hope that makes sense? Someone that is more versed in how the game saves variables feel free to correct me. Perhaps some testing by using the renegade choice can prove/disprove this hypothesis.

Ahh, you may be right there too...If this is the case, it's a glitch. I'm not sure how to check for that either, though, and I couldn't even if I wanted to. Really wishing I'd just bought the PC version now, since I already have the other two for it...

Yeah, I mean if it was random, it wouldn't be reliably switching between one and the other. Perhaps the way it's alt-F4'ed is messing with the variable setting. I wonder what happens if you do all paragon choices a few times then try renegade choices.

[Lokanaiya]

Masster blaster, if anyone had anyone to say on your posts, they would. Posting while two different discussions are going on at the same time isn't exactly the best way to make sure their noticed though. I'd wait until a lull in the discussion.

[Simon_Says]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Bioware specifically shows us something to which our first impression is almost certainly "WTF?" They want us to question whether or not that's real-- Harbinger may refrain from shooting down the Normandy because of the reasons you mentioned, but the real root of the question isn't whether he would or not, it's why Bioware would make it that way. As I said before, everything has a reason, especially in video games. It took me 10 minutes to come up with that simple script for an alternate MAKO crash that would end up in the space place as the current one, and the only difference would be the absence of the "WTF?" reaction. I think Bioware, with its team of professional writers who gave us things like Rannoch and Tuchanka just in ME3, not even getting into ME1&2, would be able to come up with something better than I could. Before anyone says "plot armor!" or anything to that effect, I speak from personal experience when saying that a good writer knows how to avoid those situations, and Bioware definitely has writers better than me, at the very least.

By the way, just for future reference, I'm a girl.

Before I go further, I'll just link this little post. Basically, we can discuss IT by disregarding Bioware entirely and just develop something that makes sense within the framework of the game lore, or we can also think about what Bioware was trying to do. Most of the discussion so far I think has just been speculating about what works within the context of the game.

As for Bioware's involvement, Harbinger not shooting down Normandy could be a hint that the reapers are out to manipulate Shepard. Simple as that.

[XanderLav]

Andromidius wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Though even at face value, Shep is definately seeing weird stuff going on.  Even if we're just going by minor out of the way details, like the piles of bodies, the shrubs, etc.

Derelict Reaper mission confirmed that indoctrination can cause waking hallucinations.

Indeed!

I think its a fair line of discussion to see whether we can discard full dream-hallucinations from the theory, so long as we still keep waking hallucinations.

Only problem is the breath scene (again...).  To explain it with the rest of the ending being 'real', it would either have to be:

1/ A dream itself, seperate from everything else (which is clunky as hell, no idea how it would fit into the narrative).
2/ Its not Shepard, but someone else (but then why show it?  And why do they look like Shep?).
3/ It is Shepard, but its somewhere on the Citadel (which is very unlikely due to the concrete and the massive explosion).
4/ Shepard somehow made it back to the conduit and it beamed him/her back down to London (unlikely due to the explosion and the fact we're not shown it its a two way system).

So...  Thoughts?

How about this it's a combination of walking hallucination and dream state. When Harbinger arrives or even when Shepard arrives at London Harbinger launches full out attack on Shepards mind. (I'm not sure about this one but didn't Anderson in FOB told Shepard that he was born in London and Shepard didn't know. Was it here or somewhere else?) So Shepard start seeing things, hearing, imaginig. And when he gets close to Harby, Harby says his line "Serve Us" "One of Us" and Shepard is knocked out at this point.
I think it makes sense if look back to the begining of the game: as you progress more and more a lot of weird stuff happening. 

[Nightingale]

HellishFiend wrote...
Sorry, I was afk a bit. Not ignoring you. 

And yeah, I understand. I will probably be making videos for as long as IT remains unconfirmed (or until I get too busy to keep doing them), and that might be a good subject to cover. 

Glad to hear it, your videos are awesome

Lokanaiya, just to antagonise you, I'd say they should've had Weekes and Dombrow (is that even how you spell his name?) write the end instead of Walters, but in all seriousness, it could be argued either way as to why they did things the way they did.
I'd get more into it, but I'm off for the night. Speculate with you more tomorrow, guys

[masster blaster]

HellishFiend wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also if you don't mind reading what I have on page 1411 thought would be great and is it just me or did we trust synthetics to much. Think about it Bioware wanted us to feel sorry for the geth and edi and it worked and now the catalyst is trying to say the reapers are not as evil as you think just like the geth were considered with the reaper but they were proven wronged because they used logic and evidence to explain why they did what they did, just like the catalyst is doing right now with Shepard.

I'll keep an eye on it but I'm inclined to think that the Synthetics are legitimate protagonists in the story. Their story arc follows a fairly straightforward flow from misunderstood to ally. And their theme is very important to "debunking" the Starchild's bad arguments. 

That's the point the Child is using the Geth choice memorie that Shepard had to make on Rannarc. Sorry I misspelld the Quariens home world.

[Simon_Says]

DrTsoni wrote...

What qualifies as Spooky Action at a Distance, though? Either way, that's more of an interpretation, too. If EA really wants to milk ME for all it's worth, it's probably the first. From an IT standpoint, however, either one could be true. It'd be the second from a literalist POV.

Spooky Action means somehow Shepard triggered the Crucible or something similarily funky and basically won the war while asleep.
I know Shep's badass but not that badass I think.