55528 réponses à ce sujet

[HellishFiend]

JustinSonic wrote...

 I still support this theory, despite the new 'expanded endings.' 

Regardless if your crew is seen being taken away, you're still hit with the laser, and the dream sequence starts. All of the following stuff can just be results of your actions.

Shepard's eyes in both the 'Control' and 'Synthesis' ending still change to show the Illusive Man/Saren eyes.

Also, I still support this theory...because, why in the world would we have bothered to play the first or second game only to finish the game going with what one of the antagonists wanted? What was the point in playing the games? Though the Star Child does give reasoning, it's not enough.

The only thing, to me, that could prove this wrong is the 'refusal' option. But, this could be in the mind too...as if you're maybe refusing to even try, and they end your life right then and there? Without Shepard's help, the Citadel couldn't open, and then the Reapers win. Either way, the refusal option is interesting.

Also, the breathing scene at the end...did Shepard REALLY survive a fall back to earth? Probably not...because in the new endings...the Citadel doesn't even explode! So, where does he wake up?

I know I'll probably have this analyzed or whatnot, but I dunno. To me, the new endings were definitely better than the original endings, but there are still some things that just don't make sense to me, even with all of the games. I love the game to death, love the series to death, and am just going to continue to support the IT.

Glad to hear it! Feel free to post here anytime, even if it's just a random comment on something. Always good to have more friendly faces around. :happy:

[Simon_Says]

Joedogg9999 wrote...

Simon_Says

I see what youre saying but that theory still leaves massive WTF moments unxplained, like where the hell did TIM evwn come from. Its unneccesariy to remove the idea that the whole things a dream.

Why would shep be inches from death and then suddenly be at full strength? Thats just one question out of dozens that would still remain if that sequence was real

Cronos station revealed that TIM allowed himself to be infected. I think the prothean VI mentioned that TIM warned teh reapers and went to the Citadel himself. It's also possible that TIM was using his control over Shepard to be practically invisible until he revealed himself and was actually waiting there for Shepard. (a stretch, maybe. Seems feasible to me though.)

As for strength returning, Saren showed that indoctrination can be rather painful and debilitating.
Also, adrenaline. Gotta love the stuff.

Yes it's unnecesary to drop the dream, but I feel it's also unncesary to keep it. I felt non-dream interpretations are avenues worth investigating.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 30 juin 2012 - 06:18 .

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

Has anybody imported the Normandy not even upgraded at all and did anybody ever try not to improve the Normandys enggiens at all im ME2 and ME3. It's just that Bioware siad have you played all possibilitys of the endgame out come. So ya and what if you really don't do anything to improve the Crucible in ME3. Does the Catalyst say it look okay or does it say it does not look compatable to do anything.

[dreamgazer]

Simon_Says wrote...

The dream sequence on earth was necessary because pre-EC there was no way to explain how Shepard survived the complete destruction of the Citadel. Now that the EC shows it's not completely destroyed, it's possible that...

Shepard runs to the conduit. Sees dream trees.
Harbinger spares Normandy because the reapers are trying to manipulate Shepard and destroying Normandy would only make Shepard vindictive. But Harbinger shoots Shepard to near-death to break them down and be made more vulnerable and desperate.
Shepard makes it up the conduit, starts hallucinating Anderson.
The Anderson/TIM encounter takes place. Anderson may or may not be real. (Probably not thought) TIM I think is real though due to new info from Cronos, and is using his new psi powers to a greater extent than just making Shep 'shoot' Anderson (probably what actually happens is Shep shoots themself)
Shep makes it up to the Crucible chamber. Starbinger starts persuading Shep to pick Control or Destroy, while dissuading Shep from destroy. (Brings up the option because a) it's there and has to be explained to maintain the illusion, is presented as worse than the other two to make those two look better.)

Control has Shepard dying, their conscientious used to make a new reaper based intelligence that will tyrannize the galaxy.
Synthesis is… Well whatever it actually is, it’s not pretty. Possibly a galaxy-wide infestation of reaper nanites that will huskify all life.
Refuse is Shepard refusing to use the Crucible, thus losing the war, if not their mind.
Destroy is Shepard going ahead, sticking to their goal and wiping out the reapers for good. Shep is knocked unconscious and wakes up in the ruins of the still intact Citadel.

Indeed, and with a few tweaks:

Shepard was knocked near death by Harbinger's blast, the catalyst communicated with Shepard from that distance, and the entirety of the Citadel sequence is in the fabric of Shepard's mind---yet the decision is real, hinged on Shepard's judgment call.   Control and Synthesis don't require Shepard to survive; Shepard turns into the catalyst in Control, and Shepard's essence is forked over for synthesis.  Choosing destroy, however, allows Shepard to live, and s/he jolts awake on London.  

Indoctrination can either play into that, or not if the viewer isn't inclined. 

[MegumiAzusa]

LT123 wrote...

Well, this is really weird. I'm experimenting with the dream expressions and not getting consistent results. I wonder if there's a flag that's getting set somewhere in the dialogue.

Paragon FemShep, Kaidan romance, skipping dialogue with space bar. Edit: Also, I'm just letting Shepard stand still until the timer runs on in the dream instead of chasing the kid.

Thus far:

Tested once

All Paragon responses + clothes coming off=calm Shep

All Paragon responses + clothes staying on=calm Shep

Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes coming off=calm Shep

Here's where it gets weird.

Testing four times
1) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=distressed Shep
2) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=calm Shep
3) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=distressed Shep
4) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=calm Shep

I have no idea what to make of this. I'll run the other options multiple times to see if it flips back and forth with those too.

Skipping seems to be a problem, I skipped first as I wanted to record and it was always the calm face, then I didn't skip and it was always the pattern I recorded.

[masster blaster]

masster blaster wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also if you think about Shepard being Indoctrinated you the player Are Shepard so ya we the player are being indoctrinated becaues we see eveything and we are learning in the game about every little pieces of evidince about the game.

We are also Shepard's voice in his/her head because they give us control of Shepard's actions and when we tell Shepard to do something Shepard does it.

And Shepard does not believe he/she is Indoctrinated because we the player like I said are suppost to know what's happening right now if you paid attention to every scrap of codex/ storyline of the game.

And does it stike you that. Shepard can't just say " ya I am being Indoctrinated" and didn't Saren, and Tim believe they weren't being indoctrinated also/refufing to believe it happening. Get it Refuse/Reject and how many players did not want to believe that their Shepard can not be Indoctinated because he/she is their Shepard and their is no way that their Shepard would fall for it. So they deni it as did Tim and Saren did to, and say Shepard is immune to Indoctrination, because Shepard is the Hero and that's it.

But heros can fall into darkness and dispare at time even though they might not know it but they show it by their actions and thoughts.

[LT123]

alittlewren wrote...

Wow, that makes a lot of sense as I
think my attempts must have alternated. Looks like I suffered from a bit of confirmation bias. So sorry--I didn't mean to send anyone on a wild goose chase. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png[/smilie]

It's disheartening to find that these different versions aren't linked to anything at all. I wonder if they will be later used as an indicator of something after a later DLC or patch. At the very least, it's interesting to note that the two versions exist at all and were apparently added in with the EC. 

Edit: Okay, so I just did a few test runs without restarting the game, as I did originally, and while
I'm not getting the versions alternating, I am getting a mixed bag of results.

Attempt 1: All renegade calm.
Attempt 2: All renegade, calm.
Attempt 3: All paragon, calm.
Attempt 4: All paragon, distressed.
Attempt 5: All paragon, calm.
Attempt 6: Renegade, Paragon, Paragon, calm. 

So it appears that although it probably didn't alternate for me originally while I was trying new things, (maybe because I didn't restart the game) I still reached my conclusion by chance. Anyway, thanks for including me in this discussion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie] 

I had fun with it. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie] Unless it's glitched, there's got to be some sort of pattern to it.
I tried it again and got distressed Shep which screws up my "it's just switching back and forth" theory.

DrTsoni wrote...

Starbuck8 wrote...
More I think about it, it seems like bugged variable setting? It sounds very reliable that it switches. It seems to be switching the variable on and off to give you that facial expression. Like with a certain dialogue choice, paragon, it's supposed to switch the terrified face on, but upon reloading it's still set to "on" and instead of leaving it, turns it back "off". Hope that makes sense? Someone that is more versed in how the game saves variables feel free to correct me. Perhaps some testing by using the renegade choice can prove/disprove this hypothesis.

Ahh, you may be right there too...If this is the case, it's a glitch. I'm not sure how to check for that either, though, and I couldn't even if I wanted to. Really wishing I'd just bought the PC version now, since I already have the other two for it...

I'll fiddle around with the renegade choices tomorrow and see what happens.  I don't know anything about how the games saves variables either. I can also see if there's any difference between alt-tabbing/quitting from the desktop or simply reloading once the dream sequence and following cutscenes are done.

Edit for formatting, whoa.

Modifié par LT123, 30 juin 2012 - 06:22 .

[XanderLav]

Masster Blaster, Please stop spamming your posts. I know we are all eager to be heard, but its hard to navigate on this tread as it is. All those pyramids and reposts.

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

Well DrTsoni made a really good point, that we havent really covered in detail all of the reasons why we feel the run is part of the full hallucination. There are a lot of them, and some of them are symbolic rather than "tangible". I'm a symbolism/theme buff, so I tend to be strongest at investigating things in that area. Might be best to cover that sort of thing in a video rather than trying to type it out. It would turn into an Arian style wall of text that no one would want to read.... 

edit: that was in no way a slight at Arian... just saying that I'm not as good/patient at writing walls of text as he is... 

Believe me, I know how it feels. You write a wall, people tend to ignore most of it, and you missed three pages of new speculation writing the damn thing.

But if you made a vid, I'd love to see it.

[Kenza]

Hey guys! Sorry if this has already been pointed out, I cant keep up with this thread. x.x

I found this(See quotes) post over yonder, and it really reminded me of the argument I used when trying to convince my friends of the IT. They were like "What? Why would they release an unfinished game? That doesnt make sense." I tried explaining that if IT were true, people should be forced to make their decision without knowing the real results. If it was known right away, there would be no "Yeaaaah~ control/synthesis FTW!" ect ect. To find out afterwards, after you're convinced that your ending is the best then realise, "Wow.. I cant believe I was totaly indoctrinated." (if you were) would be... awesome.

Now, I know Allan doesn't work for the ME team of bioware but... still interesting?

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Udalango wrote...

How can you decide how you feel on a choice if you dont know all the consequences of the choice though?

I do want to respond to this because I think it's a great question.


When
you're not told the consequences of the choice itself, it shifts the
emphasis to the choice itself, rather than the consequences.

We'll
use the original destroy ending as an example.  Many people feel it's
too much of a price to pay to sacrifice the Geth and EDI to destroy the
Reapers.  Many people though, were curious if the Catalyst was being
entirely honest or even fully knew the answer?  There was enough of an
epilogue to show that this may be the case (how the Crucible's beam
affects people on Earth, and whether or not Shepard surives).

Now,
if we show a full epilogue that shows that the Geth and EDI actually
survive, then the choice becomes purely about the consequence.  People
will happily pick that option, in spite of the risk to the Geth and EDI,
because they know it doesn't actually happen.

Not knowing for
certain, or at least believing that it will happen, places the emphasis
clearly on how the player (and through the player, Shepard) feels about
the choice.  Some people are not interested in choosing it because the
price is too high.  For some people the Geth are already dead (or they
hate the Geth), so it's an easy choice.  Others think that the
consequences suck, but ultimately it must be done, and do it with
remorse.

It makes the player evaluate the choices as they stand,
without any influence from the actual outcomes that may exist.  It also
means that the player will not be put into a situation where the the
game ends up telling them that the choice they made doesn't actually
turn out they way they wanted it to when they made that choice.


I
suppose I'm just speaking on behalf of myself (many people didn't like
them obviously), but it made me evaluate the choices purely internally. 
Each of the choices had a potential cost to them, coupled with some
uncertainty over the reliability of the Catalyst, and each of the
choices made me reflect on myself as a person.  At what point am
I willing to bend on my ethical beliefs if I feel the end justifies the
means?

This is also why I supported the fans' idea that there
should be the option to refuse the Catalyst.  After the fact, I realized
that providing these ethical considerations without providing the
option for the player to say "I don't wish to compromise them" is less
interesting.


Great question though!

[Cecilia L]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Well, this is really weird. I'm experimenting with the dream expressions and not getting consistent results. I wonder if there's a flag that's getting set somewhere in the dialogue.

Paragon FemShep, Kaidan romance, skipping dialogue with space bar. Edit: Also, I'm just letting Shepard stand still until the timer runs on in the dream instead of chasing the kid.

Thus far:

Tested once

All Paragon responses + clothes coming off=calm Shep

All Paragon responses + clothes staying on=calm Shep

Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes coming off=calm Shep

Here's where it gets weird.

Testing four times
1) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=distressed Shep
2) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=calm Shep
3) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=distressed Shep
4) Renegade, Paragon, Paragon + clothes stay on=calm Shep

I have no idea what to make of this. I'll run the other options multiple times to see if it flips back and forth with those too.

Skipping seems to be a problem, I skipped first as I wanted to record and it was always the calm face, then I didn't skip and it was always the pattern I recorded.

Naked Shepard running around in indoc dreams? DID I MISS SOMETHING?!

Confusion.

[masster blaster]

Simon_Says wrote...

Joedogg9999 wrote...

Simon_Says

I see what youre saying but that theory still leaves massive WTF moments unxplained, like where the hell did TIM evwn come from. Its unneccesariy to remove the idea that the whole things a dream.

Why would shep be inches from death and then suddenly be at full strength? Thats just one question out of dozens that would still remain if that sequence was real

Cronos station revealed that TIM allowed himself to be infected. I think the prothean VI mentioned that TIM warned teh reapers and went to the Citadel himself. It's also possible that TIM was using his control over Shepard to be practically invisible until he revealed himself and was actually waiting there for Shepard. (a stretch, maybe. Seems feasible to me though.)

As for strength returning, Saren showed that indoctrination can be rather painful and debilitating.
Also, adrenaline. Gotta love the stuff.

Yes it's unnecesary to drop the dream, but I feel it's also unncesary to keep it. I felt non-dream interpretations are avenues worth investigating.

oh and maybe that's when the Catalyst found out about the Crucible and made up the story about "  We found the plains for the Crucible seven cycles ago" which also helps IT because the Catalyst did not want to talk about the cycle that made the Crucible plains and said " There is no time to explain" so ya IT anybody, or they new about it but then why not take over the Citadle when they finale arrived in the milky way and kill off Shepards support in hopes of uniting the Galaxy?

[LT123]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Skipping seems to be a problem, I skipped first as I wanted to record and it was always the calm face, then I didn't skip and it was always the pattern I recorded .

Good to know. I'll try not skipping tomorrow too and see if it changes anything.

Edit: To clarify, you got the same pattern of it switching back and forth between calm and distressed if you didn't skip, correct?

Modifié par LT123, 30 juin 2012 - 06:26 .

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

You're skipping past the point though -which is whether or not the run is actually happening in reality - and making a case out of something that happens within the scene.

If Shepard were suddenly wearing a polka-dot dress during the run to the beam, would you use his possible reasons for wearing the dress as justification for taking the scene at face value? That's an extreme example, but the point stands. Just because Harby might have a legitimate reason to not shoot Normandy down in reality doesnt mean he wouldnt use those same circumstances to manipulate Shepard in the same way during an indoc hallucination.

Okay I think I'm really, really don't know what I'm missing, cause it's something big.

Because from where I'm sitting, it looked as if you said that the run was a dream. I then gave a reason how, dream or not, Harbinger's actions could make sense.

Was it a dream or reality? I've no idea honestly, though I personally feel it was real, though only for reasons of preference. I'm completely open to the idea that it's still all a dream though.

And if what I'm saying now is contradictory to what I said before, do go ahead and show that. I'll just use a lame defence that it's jsut past midnight here and I really ought to call it a night.

Well DrTsoni made a really good point, that we havent really covered in detail all of the reasons why we feel the run is part of the full hallucination. There are a lot of them, and some of them are symbolic rather than "tangible". I'm a symbolism/theme buff, so I tend to be strongest at investigating things in that area. Might be best to cover that sort of thing in a video rather than trying to type it out. It would turn into an Arian style wall of text that no one would want to read.... 

edit: that was in no way a slight at Arian... just saying that I'm not as good/patient at writing walls of text as he is... 

You mean like the one I sent you outlining the beam/beacon run theory. lol

I'm working on the details of this guys. We'll probably put a video together. The symbolism is there, the events and timing seems to match with preliminary observations.

In a nutshell I'm thinking waking hallucination from the transport/mako thing to the Harbinger beam hit. (sans Normandy rescue pause of course) If Harbinger can pause during this time, then we get to stop the clock too.\\

From that point on it's full hallucination to the beam area; when Shep simply stands motionless, staring in front of him while the chat with Starbinger takes place in his/her mind.

When it's time to make the choice, you either walk into the beam and get fried, walk left and get indoctrinated or walk right firing off rounds into anything in the area... which ends up damaging the device emitting the beacon indoctrination signal.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 30 juin 2012 - 06:29 .

[masster blaster]

XanderLav wrote...

Masster Blaster, Please stop spamming your posts. I know we are all eager to be heard, but its hard to navigate on this tread as it is. All those pyramids and reposts.

k but I jsut can't help it and yes your right.

[Simon_Says]

Kenza wrote...

Hey guys! Sorry if this has already been pointed out, I cant keep up with this thread. x.x

I found this(See quotes) post over yonder, and it really reminded me of the argument I used when trying to convince my friends of the IT. They were like "What? Why would they release an unfinished game? That doesnt make sense." I tried explaining that if IT were true, people should be forced to make their decision without knowing the real results. If it was known right away, there would be no "Yeaaaah~ control/synthesis FTW!" ect ect. To find out afterwards, after you're convinced that your ending is the best then realise, "Wow.. I cant believe I was totaly indoctrinated." (if you were) would be... awesome.

Now, I know Allan doesn't work for the ME team of bioware but... still interesting?

Allan Schumacher wrote...

*snip*

Very interesting. Very correct too. Still won't stop us from dreaming up ways how EDI/the Geth could be restored or were never killed in the first place.

Anyway, I'm out for the night. Lookin' forward to that vid Turbo and Hellish.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 30 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Well DrTsoni made a really good point, that we havent really covered in detail all of the reasons why we feel the run is part of the full hallucination. There are a lot of them, and some of them are symbolic rather than "tangible". I'm a symbolism/theme buff, so I tend to be strongest at investigating things in that area. Might be best to cover that sort of thing in a video rather than trying to type it out. It would turn into an Arian style wall of text that no one would want to read.... 

edit: that was in no way a slight at Arian... just saying that I'm not as good/patient at writing walls of text as he is... 

Believe me, I know how it feels. You write a wall, people tend to ignore most of it, and you missed three pages of new speculation writing the damn thing.

But if you made a vid, I'd love to see it.

Yeah, I tend to purposely keep my posts as short as possible to make sure everyone is comfortable reading them. Otherwise good, worthwhile thoughts get skipped over just due to the length of the post. If I have a lengthy thought, I'll usually break it up into pieces and bring it up a piece at a time, or make a video, like I did with Choose Wisely. I could have made the contents of that vid into a wall of text about how the subplots and themes are related to the decision chamber choices, but I felt it would be more appealing if I made it visual and entertaining, even if it sacrifices much of the content it would have had as text. 

But I'm also planning on doing some exposition/analysis videos that will be more focused on information rather than indulgence. 

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...

You mean like the one I sent you outlining the beam/beacon run theory. lol

I'm working on the details of this guys. We'll probably put a video together. The symbolism is there, the events and timing seems to match with preliminary observations.

In a nutshell I'm thinking waking hallucination from the transport/mako thing to the Harbinger beam hit. (sans Normandy rescue pause of course) If Harbinger can pause during this time, then we get to stop the clock too.

From that point on it's full hallucination to the beam area; when Shep simply stands motionless, staring in front of him while the chat with Starbinger takes place in his/her mind.

When it's time to make the choice, you either walk into the beam and get fried, walk left and get indoctrinated or walk right firing off rounds into anything in the area... which ends up damaging the device emitting the beacon indoctrination signal.

Erm, I'm gonna get to that PM soon!  

[hippojoe]

they should have made the refusal ending like so

instead of the liarabox and stargazer scene, fade from white to the scene in ME1 when you wake up after the prothean beacon thing on eden prime

it was all a dream/experience of the prothean's efforts to defeat the reapers 50,000 years ago, just with you and your cycle's species serving as stand-ins for the dream


also, i was thinking about harby not shooting the normandy, and all the arguments for  and against it

maybe he needed to reload/recharge his power cells or whatever

not totally inconceviable, just very, very convenient for the normandy lol

Modifié par hippojoe, 30 juin 2012 - 06:47 .

[Arian Dynas]

Something occured to me.

One of the explanations for a literal ending, also explaining away why Harbinger didn't just shoot down the Normandy is that they knew they would need the Normandy as a bargaining chip, since Destroy wouldn't have much of a problem if there were no Geth and no EDI.

But the fact alone that Harbinger could foresee that Shepard, would somehow get to the Citadel, open the arms, and fire up the Crucible... which if you leave the Reapers will still destroy, even though they want all this to happen and for Shepard to pick Synthesis, which even the Starchild did not consider an option, and Harbinger chooses not to fire on a ship right in front of him... when there are far superior methods of blackmail (saying things like, oh yeah, that'll destroy us, but also all synthetics, you oh and every mass relay will blow up too, royally borking up the galaxy) than just saying EDI could die, even though she herself said she would happily die knowing the Reapers went with her.

So apparently Harbinger is capable of seeing the future then.

Also, there is something I realized about the new Control, the way they indicate Shepard is now "leader of an army like no other" basically dominating the Reapers through sheer force of will...

Sounds an awful lot like that "Controlling Personality" concept about Reapers we've discussed a few times, don't it?

[BansheeOwnage]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Something occured to me.

One of the explanations for a literal ending, also explaining away why Harbinger didn't just shoot down the Normandy is that they knew they would need the Normandy as a bargaining chip, since Destroy wouldn't have much of a problem if there were no Geth and no EDI.

But the fact alone that Harbinger could foresee that Shepard, would somehow get to the Citadel, open the arms, and fire up the Crucible... which if you leave the Reapers will still destroy, even though they want all this to happen and for Shepard to pick Synthesis, which even the Starchild did not consider an option, and Harbinger chooses not to fire on a ship right in front of him... when there are far superior methods of blackmail (saying things like, oh yeah, that'll destroy us, but also all synthetics, you oh and every mass relay will blow up too, royally borking up the galaxy) than just saying EDI could die, even though she herself said she would happily die knowing the Reapers went with her.

So apparently Harbinger is capable of seeing the future then.

Also, there is something I realized about the new Control, the way they indicate Shepard is now "leader of an army like no other" basically dominating the Reapers through sheer force of will...

Sounds an awful lot like that "Controlling Personality" concept about Reapers we've discussed a few times, don't it?

Just wanted to point out my argument about Harbinger not shooting the Normandy. Why does he then shoot Shepard? The only literal explanation I can think of is the whole "Reapers are slaves and want to be free; Harbinger resists shooting Shepard" hypothesis. Which would do a number on the literal endings
Edit: Did that make sense?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 30 juin 2012 - 06:56 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Something occured to me.

One of the explanations for a literal ending, also explaining away why Harbinger didn't just shoot down the Normandy is that they knew they would need the Normandy as a bargaining chip, since Destroy wouldn't have much of a problem if there were no Geth and no EDI.

But the fact alone that Harbinger could foresee that Shepard, would somehow get to the Citadel, open the arms, and fire up the Crucible... which if you leave the Reapers will still destroy, even though they want all this to happen and for Shepard to pick Synthesis, which even the Starchild did not consider an option, and Harbinger chooses not to fire on a ship right in front of him... when there are far superior methods of blackmail (saying things like, oh yeah, that'll destroy us, but also all synthetics, you oh and every mass relay will blow up too, royally borking up the galaxy) than just saying EDI could die, even though she herself said she would happily die knowing the Reapers went with her.

So apparently Harbinger is capable of seeing the future then.

Also, there is something I realized about the new Control, the way they indicate Shepard is now "leader of an army like no other" basically dominating the Reapers through sheer force of will...

Sounds an awful lot like that "Controlling Personality" concept about Reapers we've discussed a few times, don't it?

There are two Control epilogues, the one you mentioned is the renegade one.

[Arian Dynas]

Big Bad wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

It's quotes like these that really make me bristle at the thought that Sovereign & Co. were really looking out for our best interests all along. Regardless of what Bioware does with the remaining DLC, I don't think I'll ever be able to accept that the Reapers have noble intentions.

Because they don't! It's all bull****. With the Reapers' technology, even if they did have to wipe out advanced civilizations for some grand higher purpose, they could do it much less painfully. Everything that isn't Harbinger doing a mindscrew points to the Reapers truly hating "lesser" life.

- Saren said that while Sovereign uses them for its goals, it's "insulted" by the heretic geth's "pitiful devotions."
- Sovereign's own speech about organics on Virmire.
- Ever had Mordin chatted up to the "tracked downfall of Protheans to Collectors" chat before getting to the Collector vessel for the Prothean reveal? He says the Collectors are pretty much being abused by their master. Their weapons are designed to be unnecessarily painful for them to use and cause permanent damage to their hands from long term use. They don't even treat their wounds. If they get hurt they have to just spend the rest of their lives in agony.
- The statis probes from the seeker swarms paralyze victims but leave them fully aware, completely terrified and horrified. Why not just render them unconscious?
- Javik and Garrus' talk of the Reapers' use of psychological warfare by turning your own kin against you.
- Look at banshees. They seem to be in constant pain. Even the codex mentions this.

Make no mistake, the Reapers hate other life forms. There is no noble goal.

I don't really have anything to add to this, other than that I agree completely. 

Let's add a few more to that list shall we?

"You are bacteria." - Complete disdain for all "lesser" life

"Your worlds will become our laboratories." - EXPERIMENTING on said lesser life, in fact, live human experiments. I think there was a guy who did that, ooh what was his name, oh uh, how about freaking Mengele!?

Grafting together incompatible lifeforms to make more efficent killing machines, like Brutes, and keeping them aive only through immunosurpressing drugs.

Using bodies for building, we're nothing more than raw material to them.

Rendering down human beings while LIVING AND CONCIOUS, leaving them clearly in extreme pain and clearly in abject horror.

Abandoning indoctrinated individuals, their brains nearly completely wiped clean, clearly incapable of caring for or providing for themselves.

Wholesale slaughter of sentient beings via impersonal slaughter chambers, herding them like cattle or animals, in fact it states slaughter ships are DESIGNED to be like real world slaughterhouses, with the deaths going on unseen so the people don't panic.

Forcible invasion and permanent brain damage caused by fast indoctrination, leaving the individual a drooling vegtable

And we're supposed to TRUST these things?

[Arian Dynas]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Something occured to me.

One of the explanations for a literal ending, also explaining away why Harbinger didn't just shoot down the Normandy is that they knew they would need the Normandy as a bargaining chip, since Destroy wouldn't have much of a problem if there were no Geth and no EDI.

But the fact alone that Harbinger could foresee that Shepard, would somehow get to the Citadel, open the arms, and fire up the Crucible... which if you leave the Reapers will still destroy, even though they want all this to happen and for Shepard to pick Synthesis, which even the Starchild did not consider an option, and Harbinger chooses not to fire on a ship right in front of him... when there are far superior methods of blackmail (saying things like, oh yeah, that'll destroy us, but also all synthetics, you oh and every mass relay will blow up too, royally borking up the galaxy) than just saying EDI could die, even though she herself said she would happily die knowing the Reapers went with her.

So apparently Harbinger is capable of seeing the future then.

Also, there is something I realized about the new Control, the way they indicate Shepard is now "leader of an army like no other" basically dominating the Reapers through sheer force of will...

Sounds an awful lot like that "Controlling Personality" concept about Reapers we've discussed a few times, don't it?

Just wanted to point out my argument about Harbinger not shooting the Normandy. Why does he then shoot Shepard? The only literal explanation I can think of is the whole "Reapers are slaves and want to be free; Harbinger resists shooting Shepard" hypothesis. Which would do a number on the literal endings
Edit: Did that make sense?

Funny.

He seemed to have no compunctions about killing Shepard throughout the entirety of ME2, in fact the antagonistic relationship he HAS with Shepard is entirely of his own making, not the actions of a slave desiring freedom.

Basically, that explanation has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

[JasonSic]

Maybe Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy because it wasn't a direct threat. The threat was people getting to the beam and into the Citadel.

Also, I see that a lot of people throughout the forums say Shepard got a direct hit from Harbinger's Laser. But, pre-EC and post-EC, the screen fades to white before he actually gets a direct hit, so you can assume he never got a direct hit.