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[BansheeOwnage]

Arian Dynas wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Something occured to me.

One of the explanations for a literal ending, also explaining away why Harbinger didn't just shoot down the Normandy is that they knew they would need the Normandy as a bargaining chip, since Destroy wouldn't have much of a problem if there were no Geth and no EDI.

But the fact alone that Harbinger could foresee that Shepard, would somehow get to the Citadel, open the arms, and fire up the Crucible... which if you leave the Reapers will still destroy, even though they want all this to happen and for Shepard to pick Synthesis, which even the Starchild did not consider an option, and Harbinger chooses not to fire on a ship right in front of him... when there are far superior methods of blackmail (saying things like, oh yeah, that'll destroy us, but also all synthetics, you oh and every mass relay will blow up too, royally borking up the galaxy) than just saying EDI could die, even though she herself said she would happily die knowing the Reapers went with her.

So apparently Harbinger is capable of seeing the future then.

Also, there is something I realized about the new Control, the way they indicate Shepard is now "leader of an army like no other" basically dominating the Reapers through sheer force of will...

Sounds an awful lot like that "Controlling Personality" concept about Reapers we've discussed a few times, don't it?

Just wanted to point out my argument about Harbinger not shooting the Normandy. Why does he then shoot Shepard? The only literal explanation I can think of is the whole "Reapers are slaves and want to be free; Harbinger resists shooting Shepard" hypothesis. Which would do a number on the literal endings
Edit: Did that make sense?

Funny.

He seemed to have no compunctions about killing Shepard throughout the entirety of ME2, in fact the antagonistic relationship he HAS with Shepard is entirely of his own making, not the actions of a slave desiring freedom.

Basically, that explanation has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

Never said it made too much sense.

[HellishFiend]

JasonSic wrote...

Maybe Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy because it wasn't a direct threat. The threat was people getting to the beam and into the Citadel.

Also, I see that a lot of people throughout the forums say Shepard got a direct hit from Harbinger's Laser. But, pre-EC and post-EC, the screen fades to white before he actually gets a direct hit, so you can assume he never got a direct hit.

Harbinger doesnt shoot at all during most of that entire scene. He literally just stands there and watches while Shep & crew say their goodbyes....

edit: I should add that it "feels" like Harby stops shooting because Shep isnt thinking about him at the time. Towards the end he turns around and looks at Harby and he's like "Oh yeah, Harby is still there!"  "Go! Get out of here!" Harby: Grar! *evil stare and Reaper mumbling*

Modifié par HellishFiend, 30 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[BansheeOwnage]

JasonSic wrote...

Maybe Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy because it wasn't a direct threat. The threat was people getting to the beam and into the Citadel.

Also, I see that a lot of people throughout the forums say Shepard got a direct hit from Harbinger's Laser. But, pre-EC and post-EC, the screen fades to white before he actually gets a direct hit, so you can assume he never got a direct hit.

If he actually got hit directly he would be dead. End of story. And I doubt that reason for not shooting the Normandy because the ships above are not a "direct threat " but I'm pretty sure the reapers (and probably Harbinger) are killing them too.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 30 juin 2012 - 07:07 .

[masster blaster]

But Banshee I don't think the Reapers want tobe freed as in live for ever. I think the Reapers mean death. If somebody as evil as the illusive man were to control the Reapers the whole alien galaxy excluding the humans would be in danger since he wants to dominate the galaxy by using the Reapers to put humanity back on top.

And even if Shepard picked control you forget Shepard leaves hi/ger organic form behind and even if Shepard remembers what Shepard fought for time passes like a snap and memories can be forgotten and soon erased from existensc.

[BansheeOwnage]

HellishFiend wrote...

JasonSic wrote...

Maybe Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy because it wasn't a direct threat. The threat was people getting to the beam and into the Citadel.

Also, I see that a lot of people throughout the forums say Shepard got a direct hit from Harbinger's Laser. But, pre-EC and post-EC, the screen fades to white before he actually gets a direct hit, so you can assume he never got a direct hit.

Harbinger doesnt shoot at all during most of that entire scene. He literally just stands there and watches while Shep & crew say their goodbyes....

Yeah he could've killed Shepard right then and there. Which reminds me: he could have killed Shepard first off on the beam run, but instead chose to kill everyone around him with truely deadly effeciency, but conveniently miss Shepard repeatedly.

[BansheeOwnage]

masster blaster wrote...

But Banshee I don't think the Reapers want tobe freed as in live for ever. I think the Reapers mean death. If somebody as evil as the illusive man were to control the Reapers the whole alien galaxy excluding the humans would be in danger since he wants to dominate the galaxy by using the Reapers to put humanity back on top.

And even if Shepard picked control you forget Shepard leaves hi/ger organic form behind and even if Shepard remembers what Shepard fought for time passes like a snap and memories can be forgotten and soon erased from existensc.

I know. I was just talking about someone else's theory. I don't actually think that's what's going on don't worry

[Arian Dynas]

Simon_Says wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

If that's the case, where does the hallucination start? When Harbinger says "Serve us" would be the most obvious, and I don't know that they'd have two fake goodbyes with the teammates. So the Mako crash?

A hallucination/dream sequence isn't neccesary anymore with EC. In fact the EC actually makes it possible to interpret the whole ending as happening in-reality yet still fit with the primary themes of Indoc Theory. The only problem being that it's more likely that the breath scene takes place on Earth rather than on the Citadel, but information regarding that isn't concrete.

No concrete is precisely what uh, oh, no wait, you meant not well defined. 

The presence alone of the Breath scene indicates a need for a hallucinatory experience. That and just all the plain weird ****.

Perhaps not a coma as some have postulated, but we are clearly seeing an altered veiw of reality.

[HellishFiend]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

JasonSic wrote...

Maybe Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy because it wasn't a direct threat. The threat was people getting to the beam and into the Citadel.

Also, I see that a lot of people throughout the forums say Shepard got a direct hit from Harbinger's Laser. But, pre-EC and post-EC, the screen fades to white before he actually gets a direct hit, so you can assume he never got a direct hit.

Harbinger doesnt shoot at all during most of that entire scene. He literally just stands there and watches while Shep & crew say their goodbyes....

Yeah he could've killed Shepard right then and there. Which reminds me: he could have killed Shepard first off on the beam run, but instead chose to kill everyone around him with truely deadly effeciency, but conveniently miss Shepard repeatedly.

lol, If you think that's funny, I have footage of me watching areas of the run where Harby shoots regardless if anyone/thing is there or not, and he will literally stop shooting that spot when I move there. Then as soon as I move away from it, he starts blasting that spot again. 

He truly cares. <3

[hippojoe]

Andromidius wrote...

Silent Rogue wrote...

Does the refusal ending trigger the 'Shepard breathes' scene?

No.  Because if they did, it would outright confirm IT, and Bioware didn't want that.

The breath scene, weirdly, is what's causing me the most trouble right now.  It feels somehow out of place now with the 4th ending.

Also the fact Starbinger is fine with you destroying them all, but disagreeing with him pisses him off.  Very suspitious.  Implies it WANTS you to pick Destroy too, only not as much as Control, and not as much again for Synthesis.

Its juat plain baffling from both a literal and IT standpoint.

maybe it doesn't matter WHAT you choose, the same outcome will happen

like what if the crucible+catalysy sends out a "destroy" beam that kills everything BUT reapers

like in halo 1, 343 guilty spark wants to do that, but he needs mc to press the button bc he, the AI, cannot do it

its all a reaper trick, v2.0

[BansheeOwnage]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

If that's the case, where does the hallucination start? When Harbinger says "Serve us" would be the most obvious, and I don't know that they'd have two fake goodbyes with the teammates. So the Mako crash?

A hallucination/dream sequence isn't neccesary anymore with EC. In fact the EC actually makes it possible to interpret the whole ending as happening in-reality yet still fit with the primary themes of Indoc Theory. The only problem being that it's more likely that the breath scene takes place on Earth rather than on the Citadel, but information regarding that isn't concrete.

No concrete is precisely what uh, oh, no wait, you meant not well defined. 

The presence alone of the Breath scene indicates a need for a hallucinatory experience. That and just all the plain weird ****.

Perhaps not a coma as some have postulated, but we are clearly seeing an altered veiw of reality.

"The information that leads us to assume Shepard is indeed still in London and not on the citadel is not concrete.
 
...

Wait **** yes it is."

[Arian Dynas]

Simon_Says wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also if you think about Shepard being Indoctrinated you the player Are Shepard so ya we the player are being indoctrinated becaues we see eveything and we are learning in the game about every little pieces of evidince about the game.

We are also Shepard's voice in his/her head because they give us control of Shepard's actions and when we tell Shepard to do something Shepard does it.

And Shepard does not believe he/she is Indoctrinated because we the player like I said are suppost to know what's happening right now if you paid attention to every scrap of codex/ storyline of the game.

And does it stike you that. Shepard can't just say " ya I am being Indoctrinated" and didn't Saren, and Tim believe they weren't being indoctrinated also/refufing to believe it happening. Get it Refuse/Reject and how many players did not want to believe that their Shepard can not be Indoctinated because he/she is their Shepard and their is no way that their Shepard would fall for it. So they deni it as did Tim and Saren did to, and say Shepard is immune to Indoctrination, because Shepard is the Hero and that's it.

But heros can fall into darkness and dispare at time even though they might not know it but they show it by their actions and thoughts.

What I'm getting from this is that... reject is basically a denial of being indoctrinated, and thus another failure state.

... This may merit more thought. I'll get back to this.

That's... actually a really good idea! Kudos.

But Masster, not to cause offense, but do us a favor please, it will make it easier to understand you and thus respond to you;

LERN 2 FCKNIG SPEL! 

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 30 juin 2012 - 07:20 .

[BansheeOwnage]

HellishFiend wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

JasonSic wrote...

Maybe Harbinger didn't shoot the Normandy because it wasn't a direct threat. The threat was people getting to the beam and into the Citadel.

Also, I see that a lot of people throughout the forums say Shepard got a direct hit from Harbinger's Laser. But, pre-EC and post-EC, the screen fades to white before he actually gets a direct hit, so you can assume he never got a direct hit.

Harbinger doesnt shoot at all during most of that entire scene. He literally just stands there and watches while Shep & crew say their goodbyes....

Yeah he could've killed Shepard right then and there. Which reminds me: he could have killed Shepard first off on the beam run, but instead chose to kill everyone around him with truely deadly effeciency, but conveniently miss Shepard repeatedly.

lol, If you think that's funny, I have footage of me watching areas of the run where Harby shoots regardless if anyone/thing is there or not, and he will literally stop shooting that spot when I move there. Then as soon as I move away from it, he starts blasting that spot again. 

He truly cares. <3

Lol. I think Harby is in love with Shepard and just doesn't know how to tell her/him. Think of all the times he talks about Shepard in ME2. Now I can't stop thinking about Harbinger being a potential LI.

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...


But Masster, not to cause offense, but do us a favor please, it will make it easier to understand you and thus respond to you;

LERN 2 FCKNIG SPEL! 

Alcltuay the only intpmaort tihng is that he get the fisrt and last lttrees crrcoet. As long as he does taht, the wdors are esialy rdaelbae.  

[HellishFiend]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

lol, If you think that's funny, I have footage of me watching areas of the run where Harby shoots regardless if anyone/thing is there or not, and he will literally stop shooting that spot when I move there. Then as soon as I move away from it, he starts blasting that spot again. 

He truly cares. <3

Lol. I think Harby is in love with Shepard and just doesn't know how to tell her/him. Think of all the times he talks about Shepard in ME2. Now I can't stop thinking about Harbinger being a potential LI.

 You took that a bit further than I anticipated. 

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


But Masster, not to cause offense, but do us a favor please, it will make it easier to understand you and thus respond to you;

LERN 2 FCKNIG SPEL! 

Alcltuay the only intpmaort tihng is that he get the fisrt and last lttrees crrcoet. As long as he does taht, the wdors are esialy rdaelbae.  

Well, me be more accurate, me shouldn't not say grammar learn and improved syntax.

[masster blaster]

Thanks hellishfiend but Arain is right but I am using my phone right now so it does not have spell check so ya sorry.

[Arian Dynas]

Simon_Says wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I think its a fair line of discussion to see whether we can discard full dream-hallucinations from the theory, so long as we still keep waking hallucinations.

Only problem is the breath scene (again...).  To explain it with the rest of the ending being 'real', it would either have to be:

1/ A dream itself, seperate from everything else (which is clunky as hell, no idea how it would fit into the narrative).
2/ Its not Shepard, but someone else (but then why show it?  And why do they look like Shep?).
3/ It is Shepard, but its somewhere on the Citadel (which is very unlikely due to the concrete and the massive explosion).
4/ Shepard somehow made it back to the conduit and it beamed him/her back down to London (unlikely due to the explosion and the fact we're not shown it its a two way system).

So...  Thoughts?

1 is just absurd.

2 is false. It's Shepard alright, file name confirms it.

3 is still a possibility. Unlikely, but still not impossible. I know a lot of people think otherwise, but I advise them to take another look and tell me they really can be 100% sure of what they see behind all that blur and fog.

4... well I think there was a note somewhere that implied that it was a two-way system. But yeah, doubtful that Shepard would still be walking after all they've been through.

There is no denying it is concrete from London.

It's concrete, it crumbles like concrete, there is simply NO concrete of any kind on the Citadel, it is not part of it's construction,

it matches the concrete in London.

IT'S FREAKING CONCRETE!

Go get Gunslinger, he'll tell ya what's what.

[Arian Dynas]

masster blaster wrote...

Thanks hellishfiend but Arain is right but I am using my phone right now so it does not have spell check so ya sorry.

No problems, we LIKE listening to you, you have good ideas, but when we need an interpreter to understand them, they get passed over.

[BansheeOwnage]

[HellishFiend]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

10/10 Truth! Harbinger is the Good Guy Greg of ME3. 

[Arian Dynas]

Lokanaiya wrote...
By the way, just for future reference, I'm a girl.

OH MY GOD WE MUST NOW LEER AND LUST OVER YOU! 

And yeah, you are right, any good writer worth his salt would read over that passage in the script and immediately think "Wait, why isn't my major villain attacking them right now? Hmm need to re-work that." let alone an ENTIRE TEAM of writers who specifically gather to shoot down plotholes in other's ideas.

The only explanation if meant literally? The entire Bioware staff is on quayludes. 

[masster blaster]

Hay um Arian or any body can you all look at page 1411 post five. I just thought that might help IT a bit more but I don't know if we have tried this already.

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...
By the way, just for future reference, I'm a girl.

OH MY GOD WE MUST NOW LEER AND LUST OVER YOU! 

Arian uses LEER.
Lokanaiya uses SLAP.
Moderator uses BANHAMMER.
It's super effective!

[masster blaster]

Arian She is in highschool.

[Spartas Husky]

HellishFiend wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

10/10 Truth! Harbinger is the Good Guy Greg of ME3. 

.... that... that for me was like... wtf

first wth did the normandy came down from the space battle. Is more important to evac 2 guys that continously using thanix cannon on the reapers?

And then I look back and harbinger is like... yeah its kool take 5 i'll wait.