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[DJBare]

The crucible had not been activated, if we are to stick with I.T then Shepard never even made it to the citadel, the AI is communicating with Shepard via indoctrination, Harby could have easily finished Shepard off, we've all ask the question why he did not.

[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Alright, so, thinking on the Buzz Stargazer and Samara Stargazer scenes and why a new one was added at all.

Why add a 2nd Stargazer scene with Samara's voice actor, and only use it in the new Refuse ending?
>Possible they received harsh feedback for Buzz Stargazer scene and wanted to change it. But they didn't replace the original scene for the original 3 choices. Possible they didn't want to hurt Buzz Aldrin's feelings but in that case why not 2 Samara Stargazer and 2 Buzz Stargazer scenes?

Why add a new Stargazer scene at all?
>Delivers, relatively speaking, the same message as the previous version. "Shepard is a legend. We have peace because of the previous cycle. One More Story." Only the narrative feels different, the Child seems more enthusiastic and less in awe.

Odd things:
>Still looks like the fanart for the Wintersun song, Starchild. The lyrics still seem to scream "Reaper History" to me.
>Samara Stargazer looks like an Asari, but the Child appears male so could not be an Asari. Speculations.
>Possibility that Samara Stargazer scene only exists because in the Refuse universe Buzz Stargazer does not exist to recount Shepard's story to the Child, although the Child still exists... Hm.
>The Child is on the opposite side, on the left, whereas in the Buzz Stargazer scene he is on the right.

Still like Hellish's interpretation of Bioware speaking to us through this scene, "We did say this was Shepard's last tale....but Okay, one more story ."

Same here. :happy: The new scene hasnt altered my interpretation of the message it's trying to send. Though I do believe the main reason they made the alternate Stargazer scene is because they needed one that implied that the Reaper threat wasnt eliminated until a later cycle. 

[MaximizedAction]

HellishFiend wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


We're not going to get much out of listening to it over and over again, since I can hear "Save us" "Join us" "Serve us" "Cerberus" and "malybus" it's too distorted to make out.

Uh huh.

Look, most of us have been conditioned that Harbinger is the enemy, yet it's the AI that states quite clearly he controls them, they are it's solution, Harbinger is a slave just as any indoctrinated being is.

Wait... you believe the "Catalyst" now? Despite his copious self-contradictions and suspicious behavior?

The EC is ambiguous enough so that everyone is free to either believe him or not. I like how Bioware made it so that everyone can make up his own mind.

But, IMO, no matter whether you believe the Catalyst or not, you have to assume that Shepard is being indoctrinated. Only, if you believe him, it doesn't really matter anymore.

[Arian Dynas]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Alright, so, thinking on the Buzz Stargazer and Samara Stargazer scenes and why a new one was added at all.

Why add a 2nd Stargazer scene with Samara's voice actor, and only use it in the new Refuse ending?
>Possible they received harsh feedback for Buzz Stargazer scene and wanted to change it. But they didn't replace the original scene for the original 3 choices. Possible they didn't want to hurt Buzz Aldrin's feelings but in that case why not 2 Samara Stargazer and 2 Buzz Stargazer scenes?

Why add a new Stargazer scene at all?
>Delivers, relatively speaking, the same message as the previous version. "Shepard is a legend. We have peace because of the previous cycle. One More Story." Only the narrative feels different, the Child seems more enthusiastic and less in awe.

Odd things:
>Still looks like the fanart for the Wintersun song, Starchild. The lyrics still seem to scream "Reaper History" to me.
>Samara Stargazer looks like an Asari, but the Child appears male so could not be an Asari. Speculations.
>Possibility that Samara Stargazer scene only exists because in the Refuse universe Buzz Stargazer does not exist to recount Shepard's story to the Child, although the Child still exists... Hm.
>The Child is on the opposite side, on the left, whereas in the Buzz Stargazer scene he is on the right.

Still like Hellish's interpretation of Bioware speaking to us through this scene, "We did say this was Shepard's last tale....but Okay, one more story ."

Also, considering it is an Asari, possibly a sort of narrative agent standing in for Liara, basically telling the "children" of the next cycle about the terrible war and all, it makes it clear the Stargazer scene is intended to be allegorical.

[DJBare]

I'll just put this here, then I'm off for a coffee and a late breakfast.

Harby watches the Normandy happily fly away with no attempt to stop it, then he lets Shepard live when Shepard is most vulnerable, those two don't add up to a psycho Harby.

[MaximizedAction]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Alright, so, thinking on the Buzz Stargazer and Samara Stargazer scenes and why a new one was added at all.

Why add a 2nd Stargazer scene with Samara's voice actor, and only use it in the new Refuse ending?
>Possible they received harsh feedback for Buzz Stargazer scene and wanted to change it. But they didn't replace the original scene for the original 3 choices. Possible they didn't want to hurt Buzz Aldrin's feelings but in that case why not 2 Samara Stargazer and 2 Buzz Stargazer scenes?

Why add a new Stargazer scene at all?
>Delivers, relatively speaking, the same message as the previous version. "Shepard is a legend. We have peace because of the previous cycle. One More Story." Only the narrative feels different, the Child seems more enthusiastic and less in awe.

Odd things:
>Still looks like the fanart for the Wintersun song, Starchild. The lyrics still seem to scream "Reaper History" to me.
>Samara Stargazer looks like an Asari, but the Child appears male so could not be an Asari. Speculations.
>Possibility that Samara Stargazer scene only exists because in the Refuse universe Buzz Stargazer does not exist to recount Shepard's story to the Child, although the Child still exists... Hm.
>The Child is on the opposite side, on the left, whereas in the Buzz Stargazer scene he is on the right.

Still like Hellish's interpretation of Bioware speaking to us through this scene, "We did say this was Shepard's last tale....but Okay, one more story ."

Also, in Buzz Stargazer, the 'child' still has an adult stature, while in Samara Stargazer, the kid is now a kid.

I don't think that changing the animation in the first one is such a technically impossible task. Moar meaning!

[Arian Dynas]

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


We're not going to get much out of listening to it over and over again, since I can hear "Save us" "Join us" "Serve us" "Cerberus" and "malybus" it's too distorted to make out.

Uh huh.

Look, most of us have been conditioned that Harbinger is the enemy, yet it's the AI that states quite clearly he controls them, they are it's solution, Harbinger is a slave just as any indoctrinated being is.

Wait... you believe the "Catalyst" now? Despite his copious self-contradictions and suspicious behavior?

The EC is ambiguous enough so that everyone is free to either believe him or not. I like how Bioware made it so that everyone can make up his own mind.

But, IMO, no matter whether you believe the Catalyst or not, you have to assume that Shepard is being indoctrinated. Only, if you believe him, it doesn't really matter anymore.

I say choosing whether or not to believe him is everything, Destroy is only an attractive option if you do not believe everything he tells you, but well, I've said this a number of times already and I'm tired, going to bed soon.

EDIT: Normally I'd write something more eloquent and long winded. I feel guity for not doing so, but I am damned tired.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 30 juin 2012 - 10:18 .

[HellishFiend]

DJBare wrote...

I'll just put this here, then I'm off for a coffee and a late breakfast.

Harby watches the Normandy happily fly away with no attempt to stop it, then he lets Shepard live when Shepard is most vulnerable, those two don't add up to a psycho Harby.

They add up to a manipulative Harby, in my opinion. 

And yeah, I need to go too. I can barely keep my eyes open.. Later, all!

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Arian Dynas wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Alright, so, thinking on the Buzz Stargazer and Samara Stargazer scenes and why a new one was added at all.

Why add a 2nd Stargazer scene with Samara's voice actor, and only use it in the new Refuse ending?
>Possible they received harsh feedback for Buzz Stargazer scene and wanted to change it. But they didn't replace the original scene for the original 3 choices. Possible they didn't want to hurt Buzz Aldrin's feelings but in that case why not 2 Samara Stargazer and 2 Buzz Stargazer scenes?

Why add a new Stargazer scene at all?
>Delivers, relatively speaking, the same message as the previous version. "Shepard is a legend. We have peace because of the previous cycle. One More Story." Only the narrative feels different, the Child seems more enthusiastic and less in awe.

Odd things:
>Still looks like the fanart for the Wintersun song, Starchild. The lyrics still seem to scream "Reaper History" to me.
>Samara Stargazer looks like an Asari, but the Child appears male so could not be an Asari. Speculations.
>Possibility that Samara Stargazer scene only exists because in the Refuse universe Buzz Stargazer does not exist to recount Shepard's story to the Child, although the Child still exists... Hm.
>The Child is on the opposite side, on the left, whereas in the Buzz Stargazer scene he is on the right.

Still like Hellish's interpretation of Bioware speaking to us through this scene, "We did say this was Shepard's last tale....but Okay, one more story ."

Also, considering it is an Asari, possibly a sort of narrative agent standing in for Liara, basically telling the "children" of the next cycle about the terrible war and all, it makes it clear the Stargazer scene is intended to be allegorical.

Hm. From a hallucination/dream standpoint, reasons for different scene different implications. If all you see is Shepards imagination, building on decision made, in Refuse you see Liara (an asari) speaking through her time capsule. Then you see an asari speaking to a child.... Odd coincidence. And only viable as a link since you only get Samara Stargazer with the Refuse ending.

Why not human female? Buzz Stargazer appears human male from all we can see of him. Shape relatively the same, head fringe most noticable visual difference for a sillouhette of Samara Stargazer.
Did Bioware just want something alien looking? May have decided to go with Asari model for that, but in that case why not a similar head fringe silouhette for Buzz Stargazer? Why not use something far less human like a Turian or Salarian? Too specific a shape maybe...

[insomniak9]

I posted about this earlier, if Harby shouts "Save Us", then it's really a double play. 

The Catalyst is their collective consciousness (apparently).Harby is torn; his duty is to indoctrinate you, but he wants to be free of this nonsense. I think in Leviathan we learn more about this from the rogue Reaper, who maybe reveals that Harby wants the same thing, to be free.

Shepard hears this, and knows that the only option in Starscene (Harbingers Indoctrination Construct) is to choose Destroy. 

The collective consciousness (aka the Catalyst) has to provide you with option to continue the cycle, as that's His solution (jump into his shiny beam and become Reapered); he is unaware (or only slightly aware) or Harbingers defection.

If you choose to fight the indoctrination, Harby offers you a way out; Shoot at the Red thing that looks mysteriously like me, and it'll symbolise your greater will, and the indoctrination will break. 
Go on to defeat (aka free) the Reapers from their hell. 

Javik in Leviathan: (paraphrased): "their greatest hell is sending them back to the abyss they came from..."

It's an ironic and artistic ending, because all through the Trilogy we're told the Reapers are trying to free us through our destruction; really it's them who will be freed through their destruction. 
O.o

Modifié par insomniak9, 30 juin 2012 - 10:31 .

[TSA_383]

Rifneno wrote...

Grandpa badvoiceactor, tell me another story about the shepard.

I don't have any more stories about the shepard, creepyhallucinationkid. How about instead I tell you the story of a man that used flycam to find some odd stuff that may or may not be concrete and then spent the next 2 and a half months solid arguing about it on a forum.

Well that's just depressing at this point...

HellishFiend wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I'll just put this here, then I'm off for a coffee and a late breakfast.

Harby
watches the Normandy happily fly away with no attempt to stop it, then
he lets Shepard live when Shepard is most vulnerable, those two don't
add up to a psycho Harby.

They add up to a manipulative Harby, in my opinion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

And yeah, I need to go too. I can barely keep my eyes open.. Later, all!

This was obvious from EC no?
The fact that the Catalyst is outed as the collective consciousness of all reapers... Meaning that it's the catalyst (through harbinger) that's shooting at you effectively, and it has some reason to let you live, to draw you in...

I just wish they'd get the **** on with it, putting out an inconclusive ending initially is okay in my opinion, but do it twice and I'm really starting to lose patience...

[Eryri]

Some great speculation on the "Serve Us" / "Save Us" debate guys.

I must admit I'm torn. If the Reapers really are just pawns, locked in an Asimovian program loop to "Save organics from themselves", then that further diminishes their menace. They become objects of pity rathen than awe.

On the other hand, the idea that the beings that went into their construction are still somehow concious is absolutely terrifying. Imagine if your whole family was reaped along with you, and in this conjoined state you could hear and feel their anguished thoughts and pain for all eternity! I can't imagine a worse kind of Hell. Destroy becomes even more attractive as you're freeing all those poor souls from torment.

Modifié par Eryri, 30 juin 2012 - 11:08 .

[FellishBeast]

Eryri wrote...

Some great speculation on the "Serve Us" / "Save Us" debate guys.

I must admit I'm torn. If the Reapers really are just pawns, locked in an Asimovian program loop to "Save organics from themselves", then that further diminishes their menace. They become objects of pity rathen than awe.

On the other hand, the idea that the beings that went into their construction are still somehow concious is absolutely terrifying. Imagine if your whole family was reaped along with you, and in this conjoined state you could hear and feel their anguished thoughts and pain for all eternity! I can't imagine a worse kind of Hell. Destroy becomes even more attractive as you're freeing all those poor souls from torment.

I agree with you here. Though I think them being tormented like you described would also make them pitiful, in a sense. I just want Sovereign back. Maybe Sovereign was just putting up a facade...but that would be a dick move. Isn't there like a rule about lying during the first big reveal of a series or something? x]

I want to believe BioWare wouldn't ruin the Reapers like that...but who knows.

[insomniak9]

But what a great artistic twist.
You, Shepard, get the save the Reapers.

[FellishBeast]

insomniak9 wrote...

But what a great artistic twist.
You, Shepard, get the save the Reapers.

Yeah...great indeed. 

They really aren't making it clear either way...

[Eryri]

FellishBeast wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Some great speculation on the "Serve Us" / "Save Us" debate guys.

I must admit I'm torn. If the Reapers really are just pawns, locked in an Asimovian program loop to "Save organics from themselves", then that further diminishes their menace. They become objects of pity rathen than awe.

On the other hand, the idea that the beings that went into their construction are still somehow concious is absolutely terrifying. Imagine if your whole family was reaped along with you, and in this conjoined state you could hear and feel their anguished thoughts and pain for all eternity! I can't imagine a worse kind of Hell. Destroy becomes even more attractive as you're freeing all those poor souls from torment.

I agree with you here. Though I think them being tormented like you described would also make them pitiful, in a sense. I just want Sovereign back. Maybe Sovereign was just putting up a facade...but that would be a dick move. Isn't there like a rule about lying during the first big reveal of a series or something? x]

I want to believe BioWare wouldn't ruin the Reapers like that...but who knows.

I know. Sovereign's speech in ME1 still sends chills down my spine. It was one of the best moments in the game. If he was just putting on a front it totally ruins it.

Same with Harbinger's trolling of Shepard in ME2. I know it gets a lot of flack but I thought it was great. It made him seem thoroughly and irredeemably evil, and I was so looking forward to bringing him down.

[insomniak9]

 Another quote just occurred to me... Garrus says he's heard of the human [Irish] saying:

"may you be in Heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead" 

In Shepards head, this 'half hour in heaven' could quite easily relate to all of the happy endings shown when we activate Control and Synthesis. We are not shown the terrible consequences of becoming Reaperised ("Hell"). It could even stretch to Reject and Destroy, if we accept that Shep is indoctrinated, and only High EMS allows us to survive Destroy. 

[Salient Archer]

Eryri wrote...

Some great speculation on the "Serve Us" / "Save Us" debate guys.

I must admit I'm torn. If the Reapers really are just pawns, locked in an Asimovian program loop to "Save organics from themselves", then that further diminishes their menace. They become objects of pity rathen than awe.

On the other hand, the idea that the beings that went into their construction are still somehow concious is absolutely terrifying. Imagine if your whole family was reaped along with you, and in this conjoined state you could hear and feel their anguished thoughts and pain for all eternity! I can't imagine a worse kind of Hell. Destroy becomes even more attractive as you're freeing all those poor souls from torment.

I've asked several people who have no idea about the game what they think Harbinger says and all of them have said "Save Us" and this is despite me personally feeling it says "Serve Us". If it is "Save Us" it makes me think back to what Shepard says to the Rannoch Reaper "You -- Whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to preserve them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago... and now they can rest in peace".

[Eryri]

Salient Archer wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Some great speculation on the "Serve Us" / "Save Us" debate guys.

I must admit I'm torn. If the Reapers really are just pawns, locked in an Asimovian program loop to "Save organics from themselves", then that further diminishes their menace. They become objects of pity rathen than awe.

On the other hand, the idea that the beings that went into their construction are still somehow concious is absolutely terrifying. Imagine if your whole family was reaped along with you, and in this conjoined state you could hear and feel their anguished thoughts and pain for all eternity! I can't imagine a worse kind of Hell. Destroy becomes even more attractive as you're freeing all those poor souls from torment.

I've asked several people who have no idea about the game what they think Harbinger says and all of them have said "Save Us" and this is despite me personally feeling it says "Serve Us". If it is "Save Us" it makes me think back to what Shepard says to the Rannoch Reaper "You -- Whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to preserve them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago... and now they can rest in peace".

Hmm. Could be foreshadowing.

I must admit it could be an interesting twist if handled well. And, as I've speculated before, it could lead to a golden fifth ending via DLC, in which you use the knowledge gained from Leviathan to unshackle the reapers, who then go on to take revenge on the Catalyst, commit suicide or whatever, without having to kill Edi or the Geth. If that results in a reunion with the crew and Love Interest then I could quite easily live with it. Actually if I'm honest I'd be absolutely delighted with a reunion, and willing to overlook quite a few plot holes to get it.

Although it would be a strange change in character for Harbinger to go from "This hurts you" sadism to a plaintive "Save us" over the course of about 6 months.

Modifié par Eryri, 30 juin 2012 - 11:47 .

[RealStyli]

Eryri wrote...

Some great speculation on the "Serve Us" / "Save Us" debate guys.

I must admit I'm torn. If the Reapers really are just pawns, locked in an Asimovian program loop to "Save organics from themselves", then that further diminishes their menace. They become objects of pity rathen than awe.

It's funny that, in ME1 when you talk to Sovereign, you're led to believe you're talking to the organ grinder but, in ME3, it turns out you were just talking to the monkey.

Sovereign also said "We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite". That's not the case according to the StarChild, they very much have a beginning.

[insomniak9]

How about the fact that sometimes Harbinger says "I", sometimes says "We"?

He has internal conflict. This is foreshadowing of him breaking his shackles of the Collective Consciousness (Catalyst).

[Eryri]

insomniak9 wrote...

How about the fact that sometimes Harbinger says "I", sometimes says "We"?

He has internal conflict. This is foreshadowing of him breaking his shackles of the Collective Consciousness (Catalyst).

Yes that is intriguing. Although it could just be Harbinger making grandiose use of the "Royal We" a la Queen Victoria's "We are not amused!" which she probably never actually said.

Modifié par Eryri, 30 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[insomniak9]

Guess what, if you reverse that Harby wav file, it sounds like "Shepard"

O.o

[ivenoidea]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I think it's possible Harbinger is speaking the language of the Husks/Reapers that we learn about in The Illusive Man's comic---I forget the name---so it would be something we couldn't understand unless we've interfaced with a Reaper artifact..or...unless we're indoctrinated. . . . . . o_o

I've never read it, but it might be a hint.

It's still distorted though, so shepard doesn't understand all of it yet, because he's not fully indoctrinated.

That's why he can only make out a small bit of it.

[insomniak9]

Reversed and cleaned up a touch...

"Shepard" Reversed

Modifié par insomniak9, 30 juin 2012 - 12:38 .