Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


55528 réponses à ce sujet

#35601
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

DJBare wrote...

I've just completed the genophage cure, Aquitas in the Minos Wasteland is indicating again, but I've just found something that I had not in previous games, close to Aquitas the ship passes through something but the scanners do not pick up whatever it is, as you look at the map it's lower left of Aquitas, the ship his making that noise when you pass through something unseen like fuel reserves but the scanner picks up nothing.


Add to that how Megumi noticed that Aequitas kept popping up earlier and earlier depending on the number of NG+ with that character.

#35602
insomniak9

insomniak9
  • Members
  • 439 messages
Doesn't what happened on Aequitas sound a lot like the stuff they threw *accidentally* into the EC about Leviathan? O.o

#35603
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

insomniak9 wrote...

Doesn't what happened on Aequitas sound a lot like the stuff they threw *accidentally* into the EC about Leviathan? O.o


Yeah, too many accidents. It's not like they could've add that dialog via the next DLC...except that the next DLC are all so large that they need to optionize what they put in which datapackage (that DLC size limit).

Looking forward to what Mike Gamble meant with 'keep your ears open over the next little while'!

#35604
RealStyli

RealStyli
  • Members
  • 306 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Doesn't what happened on Aequitas sound a lot like the stuff they threw *accidentally* into the EC about Leviathan? O.o


Yeah, too many accidents. It's not like they could've add that dialog via the next DLC...except that the next DLC are all so large that they need to optionize what they put in which datapackage (that DLC size limit).

Looking forward to what Mike Gamble meant with 'keep your ears open over the next little while'!


Another bit of trivia from the Final Hours app; "Leviathan" was originally going to be your Cerberus ship's name in ME2 but the designers loved the Normandy SR1 design. So, instead of a completely new Leviathan ship, it was reborn as the SR2.

#35605
Turbo_J

Turbo_J
  • Members
  • 1 217 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I've just completed the genophage cure, Aquitas in the Minos Wasteland is indicating again, but I've just found something that I had not in previous games, close to Aquitas the ship passes through something but the scanners do not pick up whatever it is, as you look at the map it's lower left of Aquitas, the ship his making that noise when you pass through something unseen like fuel reserves but the scanner picks up nothing.


Add to that how Megumi noticed that Aequitas kept popping up earlier and earlier depending on the number of NG+ with that character.


Good catch. I noticed it on my first playthrough and subsequent playthroughs and just thought the invisible tone trigger was a bug or unused 'asset'. As for the planet always being tagged with it's name; I figured something would come of it but that never happened. I just shrugged it off. If it's intentional, the implications... :blink:

Modifié par Turbo_J, 30 juin 2012 - 03:27 .


#35606
D.Sharrah

D.Sharrah
  • Members
  • 1 579 messages
I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Edit:  Here are some vids for comparison -

http://www.youtube.c...BWw99hG8#t=485s  -  Shep in ME 3

  -  Saren in ME 1 

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 30 juin 2012 - 03:38 .


#35607
insomniak9

insomniak9
  • Members
  • 439 messages
I agree; I still don't care what anyone says, we did not get 1.9Gb worth of data in the EC.

#35608
Arkennys

Arkennys
  • Members
  • 14 messages
Hello!

I'll delurk for a post, because I have some thoughts on the Reject ending I haven't seen discussed yet. This isn't necessarily related to IT, and it's very subjective, dealing with the mood, rather than facts. I am also biased both in favour of IT and the Reject ending. Now with that out of the way..


First, let me explain what I thought of the kid, both in the original ending and in the EC. His style during the conversation is soothing, even peaceful. He contradicts you on a couple of things, but he does it in a reasonable, "I'll calmly explain why you are wrong" fashion, like a patient teacher. He isn't confrontational. His arguments are based on logic. He is concise, and his descriptions are neutral in their wording. Even though he obviously has a preference among the RGB choices, the presentation of them all, even Destroy, suggests that he has no emotional investment in any of them. Perhaps the best word to describe his style is 'detached'.

Before you misunderstand me, I will point out that his logic is broken, he makes no sense, and I feel like I'm being manipulated by a patronising sociopath. I do not believe him, or trust him. The above description refers to the show he puts on for us. My point is that I can see these aspects, however forced and fake they feel, therefore I understand why people are taken in by him if they don't look behind the scenes. I wanted to establish that I can feel this mood, because most of my argument is based on this. Let's get to it.


When you reject him first, he says "Then you will die knowing that you failed to save everything you fought for."

-This is bleak and it feels like he loses his composure and breaks character. It doesn't fit with his previous behaviour. Interestingly, the only other time during the conversation that has his tone shift is when you insult him by calling him "just an AI". His answer to that is clearly scornful.

-In terms of information value, this line is pointless. It's just repeating "we can't win conventionally" with different words. By this point everybody has made up their mind whether they buy that or not. If somebody doesn't trust Hackett's judgement, the kid definitely won't convince them.

-Most of the conversation is not really a conversation. You could take what he says and with minimal to no changes turn it into a narration aimed and everyone and no one. This is clearly aimed at one person, or at most, a specific group of people. Not a blanket statement.

-If we go for a literal view AND trust him, he contradicts himself. His stance was a mixture of "I'm helping you" and "it's a natural thing, like fire". "Failed to save", with the wording, clearly implies that this is a bad thing. Either he lied when he said he sees what does as a right/natural thing, or he is lying now.

-Otherwise, this is just a more transparent attempt at manipulation. I believe guilt specifically has been established as a powerful tool for indoctrination. Shepard sees the kid - who might not even exist in the first place - die on Earth. Shepard has nightmares of the kid. Creepy-Reaper-Thing takes the form of the kid. This line.

-It is noteworthy that you have to reject him twice. If you go for RGB, after he presents the options he leaves you alone. From a purely in universe point of view, there is no reason why he couldn't try to talk to you if you pick Destroy or even Control over his beloved Synthesis, yet he doesn't. This is the only choice of the four he doesn't accept straightaway.



Now for something a different. The rage over the horrible ending drowned out most other criticism for the game. I think one thing that would have been a major point is the amount of auto-conversation. In the first few hours of the game it felt jarring, as if I wasn't playing a ME game, but watching cutscenes. I bring that up because you actually have to reject the kid twice. Even during the EC talk with him, there is plenty of auto-conversation.

Keeping this in mind, having chosen to reject him already, Shepard should have given The Speech after the kid's one-liner without further input. It would flow well, and it would fit the game's design.
I think doing it this way was a very deliberate decision on BW's part. It reinforces with gameplay that the kid has just delivered another blow to your willpower/said something supposedly convincing to talk you out of it.

It works. I prefer the Reject ending over the others a lot. I was fully committed to it. Here's what I thought when the when popped up the second time: "OMG! BW is giving me another chance to choose! Why would they do that?! Did I make a mistake? I must have made a mistake! I have to pick from RGB!" Of course, it lasted only a split second, and I clicked reject again, but I find it disturbing that it even occurred to me in the first place.

One last thing. In the same scene, in the same conversation, without anything happening to change the situation, without being provided any additional information, we have to make the same decision twice. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single example from the entire trilogy where this has happened. I'm really not sure of this, but I just can't think of anything like this, and I find that curious.

Regards, Arkennys

#35609
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

insomniak9 wrote...

I agree; I still don't care what anyone says, we did not get 1.9Gb worth of data in the EC.


Uh, the file size says otherwise...or what do you mean?

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 30 juin 2012 - 03:30 .


#35610
insomniak9

insomniak9
  • Members
  • 439 messages
I love it when people make me go hunting Youtube for videos and I come up with more quotes...

Saren: "It's beautiful blah blah it's the pinnacle of evolution, synthetic and organic together..."
Shep to Saren: "Some part of you must still realise this is wrong, you can fight this!"

The sound is nothing like Shepard waking up on the Indoctrination Citadel Construct though.
--
Re: filesize; I mean what we see in EC isn't all of the 1.9Gb. There's something else.

Modifié par insomniak9, 30 juin 2012 - 03:34 .


#35611
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

D.Sharrah wrote...

I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Saren was heavily augmented with Reaper tech so Sovereign could have controlled his body. Shepard as far as we know doesn't use Reaper tech.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 juin 2012 - 03:33 .


#35612
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

insomniak9 wrote...

I agree; I still don't care what anyone says, we did not get 1.9Gb worth of data in the EC.

The DLC folder contains a file named Default.sfar which is 1.78 GB in size. BioWare probably didn't want to use heavy compression in order to preserve quality.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 juin 2012 - 03:39 .


#35613
Rifneno

Rifneno
  • Members
  • 12 076 messages

paxxton wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

I agree; I still don't care what anyone says, we did not get 1.9Gb worth of data in the EC.

The DLC folder contains a file named Default.sfar which is 1.78 GB in size. BioWare probably didn't want to use heavy compression in order to preserve quality.


Well then they failed because the quality--oh, you mean picture quality.  Nevermind.

#35614
insomniak9

insomniak9
  • Members
  • 439 messages
2Gb of Slideshows and voiceover?

Puh-uh-leeeeze.

#35615
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages
That shaking of Shepard's body when he wakes up on the Citadel is really mysterious. Listen to the sound that plays with it. It sounds as if some machine powered up. It resembles the sound of opening door in Doom.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 juin 2012 - 03:45 .


#35616
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages
@Arkennys:
Very good post. Refusal has also become my favorite ending. That feeling that I got when I heard Shepard doing his last speech: It was beautiful..after all these month I finally got my Shepard back, Shepard who doesn't care about the odds, confident like I learned to love him.

Btw, this is basically the "Going Down In A Blaze Of Glory" ending that some found being mentioned in the executable files, a month or two ago. So was it all planned or not?

And that overexcessive use of auto-dialog fits very well within an indoctrination theme, as it represents the loss of control. Of course, it also serves Bioware well, as it reduces their work load. But the main thing is, it's consistent, if IT it is.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 30 juin 2012 - 03:46 .


#35617
D.Sharrah

D.Sharrah
  • Members
  • 1 579 messages

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Saren was heavily augmented with Reaper tech so Sovereign could have controlled his body. Shepard as far as we know doesn't use Reaper tech.


Added some vids to my post....check them out.

#35618
UrgedDuke

UrgedDuke
  • Members
  • 394 messages

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Saren was heavily augmented with Reaper tech so Sovereign could have controlled his body. Shepard as far as we know doesn't use Reaper tech.


you don't know what TIM or the scientists on object rho put in shepard

#35619
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

@Arkennys:
Very good post. Refusal has also become my favorite ending. That feeling that I got when I heard Shepard doing his last speech: It was beautiful..after all these month I finally got my Shepard back, Shepard who doesn't care about the odds, confident like I learned to love him.

Btw, this is basically the "Going Down In A Blaze Of Glory" ending that some found being mentioned in the executable files, a month or two ago. So was it all planned or not?

And that overexcessive use of auto-dialog fits very well within an indoctrination theme, as it represents the loss of control. Of course, it also serves Bioware well, as it reduces their work load. But the main thing is, it's consistent, if IT it is.

"Going down in the Blaze of Glory" on the graveyard of trillions. No, thanks!

#35620
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Saren was heavily augmented with Reaper tech so Sovereign could have controlled his body. Shepard as far as we know doesn't use Reaper tech.


Added some vids to my post....check them out.

I find the sound played when Shepard wakes up out of place. I posted about it above.

#35621
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

@Arkennys:
Very good post. Refusal has also become my favorite ending. That feeling that I got when I heard Shepard doing his last speech: It was beautiful..after all these month I finally got my Shepard back, Shepard who doesn't care about the odds, confident like I learned to love him.

Btw, this is basically the "Going Down In A Blaze Of Glory" ending that some found being mentioned in the executable files, a month or two ago. So was it all planned or not?

And that overexcessive use of auto-dialog fits very well within an indoctrination theme, as it represents the loss of control. Of course, it also serves Bioware well, as it reduces their work load. But the main thing is, it's consistent, if IT it is.

"Going down in the Blaze of Glory" on the graveyard of trillions. No, thanks!


Yes, but imagine how punishing this ending is designed to be. It contradicts and violates nearly everything you would expect from your typical fictional story of the Hero's Journey:
western moral principles, human values. And if that's not world view crushing enough: it let's you see Shepard as you know him from ME1 and ME2 and kicks you in the nuts by showing that this is not the way to achieve victory.

From an out-of-game perspective, of all the 'hints', this is the best one that hints that something's fishy here.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 30 juin 2012 - 03:55 .


#35622
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

UrgedDuke wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Saren was heavily augmented with Reaper tech so Sovereign could have controlled his body. Shepard as far as we know doesn't use Reaper tech.


you don't know what TIM or the scientists on object rho put in shepard

Well, yes. We can assume though that TIM didn't put anything dangerous in Shepard because he didn't want to compromise Shepard's self. The scientists in Arrival could have done something to him in 2 days though.

#35623
D.Sharrah

D.Sharrah
  • Members
  • 1 579 messages

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Saren was heavily augmented with Reaper tech so Sovereign could have controlled his body. Shepard as far as we know doesn't use Reaper tech.


Added some vids to my post....check them out.

I find the sound played when Shepard wakes up out of place. I posted about it above.


The sound is one thing...but look at the visual similarities...now we know that Saren is definetly much further gone then Shep which explains just how much more violent his "revival" is...but given that they are similar, does it give strength to IT?  IMHO, yes.

#35624
D.Sharrah

D.Sharrah
  • Members
  • 1 579 messages
Reposting just so people have a chance to look at the videos...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I was watching the low ems ec control ending this morning...and when the conduit spits Shep out on the Citadel and we hear the noise (accompanied by Shep's body violently shaking), it reminded me of Saren at the end of ME 1 when Sovereign revives him (not with the same force or anything). We know with that scene Saren was revived b/c Sovereign had work for him to do - could it be that Shep is reveived so that the indoctrination can continue?

Edit:  Here are some vids for comparison -

http://www.youtube.c...BWw99hG8#t=485s  -  Shep in ME 3

  -  Saren in ME 1 



#35625
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

@Arkennys:
Very good post. Refusal has also become my favorite ending. That feeling that I got when I heard Shepard doing his last speech: It was beautiful..after all these month I finally got my Shepard back, Shepard who doesn't care about the odds, confident like I learned to love him.

Btw, this is basically the "Going Down In A Blaze Of Glory" ending that some found being mentioned in the executable files, a month or two ago. So was it all planned or not?

And that overexcessive use of auto-dialog fits very well within an indoctrination theme, as it represents the loss of control. Of course, it also serves Bioware well, as it reduces their work load. But the main thing is, it's consistent, if IT it is.

"Going down in the Blaze of Glory" on the graveyard of trillions. No, thanks!


Yes, but imagine how punishing this ending is designed to be. It contradicts and violates nearly everything you would expect from your typical fictional story of the Hero's Journey:
western moral principles, human values. And if that's not world view crushing enough: it let's you see Shepard as you know him from ME1 and ME2 and kicks you in the nuts by showing that this is not the way to achieve victory.

From an out-of-game perspective, of all the 'hints', this is the best one that hints that something's fishy here.

Well, yes, for IT this is probably the most sensible ending because Shepard rejects the whole indoctrination attempt. Liara's hologram says the war was lost because there are DLCs coming that will probably add allies and War Assets that could result in a different message after Reject (or IT will be revealed in Mass Effect 4 which would be the best solution in my opinion). I don't have to remind you of what the Catalyst says after you chose Reject. That phrase must have at least some deeper meaning in the context of what has happened in the last 3 months on BSN and throughout the real world.

Modifié par paxxton, 30 juin 2012 - 04:03 .