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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#35976
Guest_Sareth Cousland_*

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Well, I read that Forbes article today (http://www.forbes.co...-mass-effect/5/) and had an idea on the Catalyst and the origins of the Reapers.

What I suggest is this.

The Catalyst is Harbinger as proposed by IT. However, it is more than that. The race Harbinger consists of  is the very first race turned unwillingly into a Reaper (as stated by the codex, Harbinger is the oldest Reaper). That race faced extinction by a race of machines they created and their consensus, their networked AI, sought a way to "create synergy between organics and synthetics" (quote from the CE handbook, and also explained in a similar way by the Catalyst) instead of annihilating the race that created them. Like the geth still loved their creators in a way, so did this unknown race of machines still love theirs. At any rate, the networked AI thought that the best way to create synergy was equality and unity through assimilation. As it observed reality, it saw chaos. Chaos seemed to rise from diversity (a theme that is clearly contradicted in the ME series otherwise). So that networked intelligence, that we now know as the Catalyst, created the first Reaper, a hybrid of creators and created, and synergy was achieved. Thus, he is the Harbinger. He controls the Reapers, but not in a networked way – he commands them. Independent. Each a nation. Unfortunately, he controls the organic parts of his mind via indoctrination (forced unity of belief), enslaves them (like the Zha'til's organic parts were enslaved by their synthetic part), so Reapers are more synthetic than organic. Like Shepard said on Rannoch: "whoever they were, they died a long time ago".

The fallen Reaper on Rannoch points out the central theme of Harbinger's thinking: Order. To Harbinger, difference always results in conflict. Choose synthesis and you choose the solution of the leader of the Reapers. Choose control and you adopt the behavior of the Reapers by assimilating or destroying that which is different (on an ideological level), and subjugating your enemies.  As renegade Shep says in the control ending, there is power in control. In domination. In "harnessing the strengths of your enemy" (Saren, TIM). His mission is "to put an end to the bickering of the many". To impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. With synthesis and control, Shepard becomes the enemy.

After I was initially disappointed by the EC, I now think it actually reinforces the IT and provides new valuable insights into the lore of Mass Effect.

P.S. So the Catalyst does not degrade the Reapers into puppets. It/Harbinger leads them as first among many, and they fulfill their mission out of free will – it is their choice to reap. This is reinforced by the rumors about the upcoming Leviathan DLC, which I am now really looking forward to.

Modifié par Sareth Cousland, 30 juin 2012 - 10:35 .


#35977
Xavendithas

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D.Sharrah wrote...

Javik: I saw many strange things in our war against the Reapers. An entire settlement of Densorin were once studying things far beyond their knowledge.
Javik: Celestial mechanics, morphological simulations of galactic language... things even we didn't understand. At the time, I thought they were crazy.
Javik: But now, after what occurred on that asteroid, I wonder.
Javik: If Leviathan is a defector--a Reaper that broke away from the others--then it is also a traitor.
Javik: And traitors are never to be trusted, even among the enemy.
Javik: If they can betray their own kind, imagine what they can do to you.
Javik: I have studied your human religions, Commander--your "Devil" and his fall. Leviathan and its kind deserve the same fate.
Javik: They once unleashed a plague that has haunted all of our history to this day.</data>
Javik: I say their own hell is the abyss you found them in... one I hope they never escape from.


I think Javik's lines are very intriguing. The bolded lines specifically. The biblical reference could definitly be an indicator of what Leviathan is doing.

#35978
D.Sharrah

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RalfS wrote...

I still love IT! About this *SERVE US* thing:

1. After reading "SHAVE us" in a youtube comment I will never be able to hear anything else again at this point :P
2. And something serious, don't know if it has been brought up already...
As you can play the game in different languages I switched to German(my first language) to hear what it would be in German. But as i suspected: No change, the same *shave us* sound.
This makes me believe that it actually just an alien-reaperish soundeffect, which is not supposed to mean anything in English.

Because there is just nothing they did not translate in the german version, despite some proper names like "reaper". Even "Harbinger", "TiM" and "the Crucible" became "Vorbote", "Tiegel" and "der Unbekannte" in german, which makes me play the English version in the first place. ^^

So yeah, if "shave us" was supposed to mean something, I think they would have translated it. =/
At least consider the (very propable) possibilty that we hear something, which is actually nothing.

Why this specific sound and not just a growl or an actual line from harby remains weird. I still want my Harbinger Final Boss Battle. :<


I don't know...my vote is for serve us...but there does seem to be three beats in there...like; dun (ser) dun (rve) dun (us)...

#35979
boeloe

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RalfS wrote...

2. And something serious, don't know if it has been brought up already...
As you can play the game in different languages I switched to German(my first language) to hear what it would be in German. But as i suspected: No change, the same *shave us* sound.
This makes me believe that it actually just an alien-reaperish soundeffect, which is not supposed to mean anything in English.

Because there is just nothing they did not translate in the german version, despite some proper names like "reaper". Even "Harbinger", "TiM" and "the Crucible" became "Vorbote", "Tiegel" and "der Unbekannte" in german, which makes me play the English version in the first place. ^^

So yeah, if "shave us" was supposed to mean something, I think they would have translated it. =/
At least consider the (very propable) possibilty that we hear something, which is actually nothing.


This is to be expected though, sinds the noise Harbinger makes is part of a larger 23 and 27 second (there a two versions of it) soundfile that is located in the SFX (background noises) folder and not in the dialog folder (which is the part that gets localized).

Modifié par boeloe, 30 juin 2012 - 10:56 .


#35980
D.Sharrah

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Gotta take a break...I'll be back in a bit (or longer)...feel free to make sure others see the DLC dialogue guess...

#35981
dark_secret7

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D.Sharrah wrote...

RalfS wrote...

I still love IT! About this *SERVE US* thing:

1. After reading "SHAVE us" in a youtube comment I will never be able to hear anything else again at this point :P
2. And something serious, don't know if it has been brought up already...
As you can play the game in different languages I switched to German(my first language) to hear what it would be in German. But as i suspected: No change, the same *shave us* sound.
This makes me believe that it actually just an alien-reaperish soundeffect, which is not supposed to mean anything in English.

Because there is just nothing they did not translate in the german version, despite some proper names like "reaper". Even "Harbinger", "TiM" and "the Crucible" became "Vorbote", "Tiegel" and "der Unbekannte" in german, which makes me play the English version in the first place. ^^

So yeah, if "shave us" was supposed to mean something, I think they would have translated it. =/
At least consider the (very propable) possibilty that we hear something, which is actually nothing.

Why this specific sound and not just a growl or an actual line from harby remains weird. I still want my Harbinger Final Boss Battle. :<


I don't know...my vote is for serve us...but there does seem to be three beats in there...like; dun (ser) dun (rve) dun (us)...


"AU-TO-BOTS".
:wizard:

#35982
FellishBeast

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In case someone hasn't posted this yet.

Modifié par FellishBeast, 30 juin 2012 - 10:45 .


#35983
Big_Boss9

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FellishBeast wrote...

In case someone hasn't posted this yet.

Yes sir, these next two weeks can't speed by fast enough.

#35984
MegumiAzusa

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TSA_383 wrote...

Any chance you could send me some of those save files?

So found anything interesting?

#35985
jgibson14352

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i used to think the leviathan dlc was just a rumor, but i just realized i remember hearing something about ME being notorious for leaking dlc info early, is that true?

Modifié par jgibson14352, 30 juin 2012 - 10:55 .


#35986
Auralius Carolus

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Big_Boss9 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

In case someone hasn't posted this yet.

Yes sir, these next two weeks can't speed by fast enough.


Posted Image
*gasp*

#35987
byne

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jgibson14352 wrote...


i used to think the leviathan dlc was just a rumor, but i just realized i remember hearing something about ME being notorious for leaking dlc info early, is that true?


Its not a rumor, they included some of the files in the EC for some reason.

#35988
Auralius Carolus

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byne wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...


i used to think the leviathan dlc was just a rumor, but i just realized i remember hearing something about ME being notorious for leaking dlc info early, is that true?


Its not a rumor, they included some of the files in the EC for some reason.


Including new MP weapon attachments. But they will surely charge for this DLC... the heathens!

#35989
jgibson14352

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byne wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...


i used to think the leviathan dlc was just a rumor, but i just realized i remember hearing something about ME being notorious for leaking dlc info early, is that true?


Its not a rumor, they included some of the files in the EC for some reason.

thats exactly why i thought it was a rumor, at first. i know now, but it just didnt make sense why they would include it in the EC. by doing that, dont they rule out any chance of editing if they get something wrong, or change their minds?
it must also mean the dlc is pretty much made by now

Modifié par jgibson14352, 30 juin 2012 - 11:00 .


#35990
schneeland

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FellishBeast wrote...

In case someone hasn't posted this yet.


I have seen it, however, at least for me, it is unclear what could actually be discussed at this panel, given where we stand now. 

#35991
Salient Archer

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Reposting links to some of my posts from last night; due to the magnitude of posts between last night and now.

First up when have the audio files of Harbinger's "save us/serve us" line:

Harbinger gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger gradually speed shifted
Harbinger gradually pitch shifted and speed up
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually speed shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch and speed shifted

So what do you guys think? Many have suggested that it's "serve us" but I've also asked outsiders (who have no idea abut mass effect) what the line is and most (if not all) of them initally think it says "save us".

Modifié par Salient Archer, 30 juin 2012 - 11:01 .


#35992
Turbo_J

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jgibson14352 wrote...

byne wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...


i used to think the leviathan dlc was just a rumor, but i just realized i remember hearing something about ME being notorious for leaking dlc info early, is that true?


Its not a rumor, they included some of the files in the EC for some reason.

thats exactly why i thought it was a rumor, at first. i know now, but it just didnt make sense why they would include it in the EC. by doing that, dont they rule out any chance of editing if they get something wrong, or change their minds?
it must also mean the dlc is pretty much made by now


It's likely completed and already going through the cirtification process. They are just waiting for the dotted i's and crossed t's.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 30 juin 2012 - 11:05 .


#35993
XanderLav

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Salient Archer wrote...

Reposting links to some of my posts from last night; due to the magnitude of posts between last night and now.

First up when have the audio files of Harbinger's "save us/serve us" line:

Harbinger gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger gradually speed shifted
Harbinger gradually pitch shifted and speed up
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually speed shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch and speed shifted

So what do you guys think? Many have suggested that it's "serve us" but I've also asked outsiders (who have no idea abut mass effect) what the line is and most (if not all) of them initally think it says "save us".


I still hear "one of us" and with gradually shifting pitch I can hear it clearer. 

#35994
jgibson14352

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Turbo_J wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

byne wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...


i used to think the leviathan dlc was just a rumor, but i just realized i remember hearing something about ME being notorious for leaking dlc info early, is that true?


Its not a rumor, they included some of the files in the EC for some reason.

thats exactly why i thought it was a rumor, at first. i know now, but it just didnt make sense why they would include it in the EC. by doing that, dont they rule out any chance of editing if they get something wrong, or change their minds?
it must also mean the dlc is pretty much made by now


It's likely completed and already going through the cirtification process. They are just waiting for the dotted i's and crossed t's.

thats good, but watch them wait three months to release it for something ridiculous that well all pay anyway 
but has bioware leaked dlc info before?

#35995
FellishBeast

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Salient Archer wrote...

Reposting links to some of my posts from last night; due to the magnitude of posts between last night and now.

First up when have the audio files of Harbinger's "save us/serve us" line:

Harbinger gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger gradually speed shifted
Harbinger gradually pitch shifted and speed up
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually speed shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch and speed shifted

So what do you guys think? Many have suggested that it's "serve us" but I've also asked outsiders (who have no idea abut mass effect) what the line is and most (if not all) of them initally think it says "save us".


Hm. Well forwards it almost sounds like there is a third syllable in there, but backwards it sounds more like "serve us" than forwards, imo. Sounds like "save" forwards and "serve" backwards.

I'm hoping there is some obvious word that would make sense here that we're just missing.

#35996
Auralius Carolus

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Salient Archer wrote...

Reposting links to some of my posts from last night; due to the magnitude of posts between last night and now.

First up when have the audio files of Harbinger's "save us/serve us" line:

Harbinger gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger gradually speed shifted
Harbinger gradually pitch shifted and speed up
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually speed shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch and speed shifted

So what do you guys think? Many have suggested that it's "serve us" but I've also asked outsiders (who have no idea abut mass effect) what the line is and most (if not all) of them initally think it says "save us".


I still question the validity of it being English. Basically, there are two distinct syllables, but the actual vocalization is very cryptic; it has already been shown that Reapers who are willing to communicate with Shepard are fully capable of doing so.

The only explanation I have for why it could be a cryptic "Serve Us" is that hypothesis I had about the Reaper implants beginning to affect Shepard in such a way that he is beginning to discern Reaper speech, whatever that may be.

#35997
TSA_383

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Any chance you could send me some of those save files?

So found anything interesting?


How's this for a start?
There's what I think is a status for EDI (did you take different characters on the run?) which is different for destroy medium and high EMS:huh:

#35998
Either.Ardrey

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XanderLav wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Reposting links to some of my posts from last night; due to the magnitude of posts between last night and now.

First up when have the audio files of Harbinger's "save us/serve us" line:

Harbinger gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger gradually speed shifted
Harbinger gradually pitch shifted and speed up
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually speed shifted
Harbinger Reversed and gradually pitch and speed shifted

So what do you guys think? Many have suggested that it's "serve us" but I've also asked outsiders (who have no idea abut mass effect) what the line is and most (if not all) of them initally think it says "save us".


I still hear "one of us" and with gradually shifting pitch I can hear it clearer. 


:blink: The files must be indoctinating people, because the same thing happened with me, but with "Serve Us." When I listened to it, I not even once heard an A sound. Just an er sound. "Se-erve Us", to be specific.

Modifié par Either.Ardrey, 30 juin 2012 - 11:17 .


#35999
byne

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TSA_383 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Any chance you could send me some of those save files?

So found anything interesting?


How's this for a start?
There's what I think is a status for EDI (did you take different characters on the run?) which is different for destroy medium and high EMS:huh:


Does EDI's name appear on the memorial wall if you choose destroy? Because I've heard people say she does, but I'm 90% certain she wasnt on my memorial wall.

#36000
Either.Ardrey

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byne wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Any chance you could send me some of those save files?

So found anything interesting?


How's this for a start?
There's what I think is a status for EDI (did you take different characters on the run?) which is different for destroy medium and high EMS:huh:


Does EDI's name appear on the memorial wall if you choose destroy? Because I've heard people say she does, but I'm 90% certain she wasnt on my memorial wall.

She did on mine.