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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#36226
jgibson14352

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comrade gando wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

She also recently suggested that her statements pre release of EC about being able to reuinte with the crew/LI was her way of telling us that you could head canon after the EC...


this right here, infuriates me. so they're telling us to just imagine what happens next? no closure? no then they lived together? they ended the series on a cliffhanger still! what happened next?!~!? if I have to imagine the ending, then I might as well imagine the beginning and middle as well! what a bunch of gypsies!!!!

I KNOW! its an entertainment company that (if she means it) is telling us to think the rest. i wouldnt have paid 96 bucks for the collectors edition if i had to imagine my own ending. bull****. i paid YOU to use YOUR imagination to entertain ME.
its as if you hire a roof cleaning service to clean out your gutters, and instead they just whipe out half of all the gunk. and when you ask wtf is up with that, they just say "yea just dont look at it and imagine its gone, whatever you think up is better than what we could do"

#36227
D.Sharrah

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ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...


Tully Ackland has posted that exact same statement twice, you could see it as he knows he means it. but its still weird how NO bioware-er has outright said, "we did not write and design the endings as though shepard was indoctrinated, and will not release any dlc expanding on such". i know that while id be disappointed, id be happy for finally having a direct answer instead of all htis beating around the bull****. jos hendrikson and any other dev wont confirm or deny though, just ambiguous "cant answer that" statements

It's suspicious is what it is. I don't blame them, I mean keeping people interested in the end of a trilogy is a lot different from building interest in a sequel. Or uh.. so I'd imagine. So I don't know. Maybe Tully Ackland's right with no underlying motives and maybe they're not confirming or denying IT to keep people interested and invested in Mass Effect.

Not what I think or believe, though.


http://ts4.mm.bing.n...&h=148&c=7&rs=1

Oh u :happy:

 But yes, something is foul in the state of denmark



Now if I could just turn that image into a "simley" and add it to the smiley bar...all would be right in the world.

#36228
D.Sharrah

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paxxton wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

She also recently suggested that her statements pre release of EC about being able to reuinte with the crew/LI was her way of telling us that you could head canon after the EC...


this right here, infuriates me. so they're telling us to just imagine what happens next? no closure? no then they lived together? they ended the series on a cliffhanger still! what happened next?!~!? if I have to imagine the ending, then I might as well imagine the beginning and middle as well! what a bunch of gypsies!!!!

Shepard can't reunite with his LI if he's dead. In Destroy they all left him to rot in the rubble. No wonder he doesn't want any reunion. Posted Image


Just beacuse you want to be Harpard, the new Reaper overlord...

#36229
Salient Archer

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As part of my "Reaper's say the darndest things" quote series I decided to make a best of called "The very hungry harbingers".

First up we have these awe inspiring extracts from "Tea time with Sovereign"
“You touch my mind fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.”
I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.”
“You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.”
“The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them - the legacy of my kind.”
“We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness."
“We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.”
“Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident.
“You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.”
I am the vanguard of your destruction."
I am Sovereign. And this station is MINE!


Next we have these heart warming quotes from “A coffee break with Harbinger
“I am Harbinger.”
“I am the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“I am the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“I am unstoppable.”
“You will not stop me.”
“The forces of the universe bend to me.”
“I sense your weakness.”
“I will show you true power.”

“My attacks will tear you apart.”
“Shepard, I always survive.”
“You cannot kill me, Shepard.”
“Why do you resist me, Shepard?”
“If I must tear you apart, Shepard, I will.”
“You only damage the vessel, you cannot hurt me.”
“I will direct this personally.”
“I will find you again.”
“I am releasing this form.”
“I am limitless. You are bacteria.”
“This seems a victory to you. A star system sacrificed, but even now your greatest civilizations are doomed to fall. Your leaders will beg to serve us.”


And if that didn’t make you want to throw your body on the nearest dragons teeth we have more Harbinger quips from “Water cooler chats with Object Rho”
“Struggle, if you wish. Your mind will be MINE!”
“Take him to the med bay and patch him up. We want Shepard alive!”


Notable mention must go to the Reaper of Rannoch for giving us this little insight:
"Shepard. Harbinger speaks of you."
Which I assume means Shepard must have been brought up in conversation during Harbinger and Rannoch Reaper’s most recent game of botchy.

But now we have a late arrival  to the series who is deserving of a dishonorable mention, the Justin Bieber of Reaping: StarBrat. Who seems to contradict all of our favorite Reaper quotes with these rather contradictory statements:
"When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do? We are no different."
"I control the Reapers. They are my solution."
“I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers.”
“My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They, in turn, give me purpose.”


And the creepiest line of all comes when Shepard asks about the creators:

“The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators. They became the first true Reaper. They did not approve, but it was the only solution.”

And when in context of this the following line becomes even creepier:
“Synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators.”

So as far as I can tell the StarBrat either contradicts what the Reaper's have told us in the past or he is truly in control and he has been lying to us from the very start. Not only this but due to the extended conversations there's now implications that he reaped his own creators ... creepy!

Modifié par Salient Archer, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .


#36230
D.Sharrah

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jgibson14352 wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

She also recently suggested that her statements pre release of EC about being able to reuinte with the crew/LI was her way of telling us that you could head canon after the EC...


this right here, infuriates me. so they're telling us to just imagine what happens next? no closure? no then they lived together? they ended the series on a cliffhanger still! what happened next?!~!? if I have to imagine the ending, then I might as well imagine the beginning and middle as well! what a bunch of gypsies!!!!

I KNOW! its an entertainment company that (if she means it) is telling us to think the rest. i wouldnt have paid 96 bucks for the collectors edition if i had to imagine my own ending. bull****. i paid YOU to use YOUR imagination to entertain ME.
its as if you hire a roof cleaning service to clean out your gutters, and instead they just whipe out half of all the gunk. and when you ask wtf is up with that, they just say "yea just dont look at it and imagine its gone, whatever you think up is better than what we could do"


This didn't exactly make me happy either...in fact, my initial response was, "Really?!?!?! Come on...just, come on."  But...easy...breathe...remember it is Merizan. She hasn't exactly been the gold mine of all that is factual.

#36231
paxxton

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D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

She also recently suggested that her statements pre release of EC about being able to reuinte with the crew/LI was her way of telling us that you could head canon after the EC...


this right here, infuriates me. so they're telling us to just imagine what happens next? no closure? no then they lived together? they ended the series on a cliffhanger still! what happened next?!~!? if I have to imagine the ending, then I might as well imagine the beginning and middle as well! what a bunch of gypsies!!!!

Shepard can't reunite with his LI if he's dead. In Destroy they all left him to rot in the rubble. No wonder he doesn't want any reunion. Posted Image


Just beacuse you want to be Harpard, the new Reaper overlord...

Posted Image Shepard of the Universe Posted Image

#36232
FellishBeast

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Andromidius wrote...

Tee hee. Replaying ME1*, and some of the early lines from Saren and the Turian Counciller are rather... Awesome.

Saren: "Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocent against this kind of testimony?"
Counciller: "I agree. Our judgement must be based on facts and evidence, not wild imaginings and reckless speculation."

And guess who was indoctrinated, and who was wrong?

*Yes, I wrote ME3 first time.  I'm tired.


lol ****in' poetic.

#36233
D.Sharrah

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Does anyone know if someone has made a ME 3 video with the Shepard song?

Edit: This song:


Modifié par D.Sharrah, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:28 .


#36234
Andromidius

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Salient Archer wrote...
“Synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators.


And this is why the Reapers are protecting organics from synthetics?  And why they don't attack Synthetics?

<_<

Make up your mind, Starbinger.  Are you protecting Organics, or promoting Synthetic dominance?

#36235
jgibson14352

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D.Sharrah wrote...

jgibson14352 wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

She also recently suggested that her statements pre release of EC about being able to reuinte with the crew/LI was her way of telling us that you could head canon after the EC...


this right here, infuriates me. so they're telling us to just imagine what happens next? no closure? no then they lived together? they ended the series on a cliffhanger still! what happened next?!~!? if I have to imagine the ending, then I might as well imagine the beginning and middle as well! what a bunch of gypsies!!!!

I KNOW! its an entertainment company that (if she means it) is telling us to think the rest. i wouldnt have paid 96 bucks for the collectors edition if i had to imagine my own ending. bull****. i paid YOU to use YOUR imagination to entertain ME.
its as if you hire a roof cleaning service to clean out your gutters, and instead they just whipe out half of all the gunk. and when you ask wtf is up with that, they just say "yea just dont look at it and imagine its gone, whatever you think up is better than what we could do"


This didn't exactly make me happy either...in fact, my initial response was, "Really?!?!?! Come on...just, come on."  But...easy...breathe...remember it is Merizan. She hasn't exactly been the gold mine of all that is factual.

i know, i know, its just,...aaagggh, i cant stand how they say one thing when all the evidence points to something else.
*edit*.
 im sure she does community managing quite well, but im not sure if we should be listening to her about anything story related

Modifié par jgibson14352, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:31 .


#36236
Andromidius

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FellishBeast wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Tee hee. Replaying ME1*, and some of the early lines from Saren and the Turian Counciller are rather... Awesome.

Saren: "Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocent against this kind of testimony?"
Counciller: "I agree. Our judgement must be based on facts and evidence, not wild imaginings and reckless speculation."

And guess who was indoctrinated, and who was wrong?

*Yes, I wrote ME3 first time.  I'm tired.


lol ****in' poetic.


*innocence

And yeah, its pretty hilarious how well it fits the current situation.

#36237
paxxton

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Andromidius wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...
“Synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators.


And this is why the Reapers are protecting organics from synthetics?  And why they don't attack Synthetics?

<_<

Make up your mind, Starbinger.  Are you protecting Organics, or promoting Synthetic dominance?

It's more about balance. Both Synthetics and Organics have to be allowed to evolve but there is time when one tries to subjugate/annihilate the other. Every 50,000 years. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .


#36238
EpyonX3

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Andromidius wrote...

Tee hee. Replaying ME1*, and some of the early lines from Saren and the Turian Counciller are rather... Awesome.

Saren: "Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend my innocent against this kind of testimony?"
Counciller: "I agree. Our judgement must be based on facts and evidence, not wild imaginings and reckless speculation."

And guess who was indoctrinated, and who was wrong?

*Yes, I wrote ME3 first time.  I'm tired.


Wait, but Shepard wasn't indoctrinated when he had the dreams so by him having dreams in ME3 would mean that he wasn't indoctrinated and those who think so are in fact indoctrinated.

:wizard:

#36239
Andromidius

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paxxton wrote...
It's more about balance. Both Synthetics and Organics have to be allowed to evolve but there is time when one tries to subjugate the other. Every 50,000 years. Posted Image


But if that was the case, they'd come in and smash up Synthetics as well.  And based on how they use Geth as minions...

Seriously, its rubbish.  Reapers are all about their own domination - everyone else is either resources or tools to achieve that goal.  Trying to imply they do it to maintain balance, or to keep Organics safe, is just Starbinger justiying itself to someone who 5 minutes before was only thinking about blowing them to pieces.  Its emotional manipulation at its worst, like the abusive husband who says he can change if you just give him one more chance.

#36240
comrade gando

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probably the main thing, and I'm being honest here, that pisses me off the most about the ending. forget about all the plot holes, all the inconsistencies, all the wasted potential. nah forget about all of that. my shepard will likely never see tali again possibly, and especially after that scene where she gets evacuated, that just pisses me off. artistic integrity be damned, I need to see them together before this debacle is over.

#36241
Andromidius

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EpyonX3 wrote...
Wait, but Shepard wasn't indoctrinated when he had the dreams so by him having dreams in ME3 would mean that he wasn't indoctrinated and those who think so are in fact indoctrinated.

:wizard:


He wasn't indoctrinated until after you pick a wrong choice.  The beacon could be seen as the first step towards indoctrination, considering it was just used by Saren and Sovereign was relatively close by.

Saren is indoctrinated.  The Turian Counciller is just overly skeptical and trusts Saren too much.

Plus technically the Beacon didn't cause Shepard to dream, it was a telepathic message that Shep's brain was struggling to make sense of before it knocked him out cold.

#36242
senshi420

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 i dont know if this is still relevant to anyone's work, but i was putting around youtube and found a video of the low EMS control only ending and figured it'd be a good resource to share.
www.youtube.com/watch


hope everyone's  shiny :D

Modifié par senshi420, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:39 .


#36243
Vaya

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Salient Archer wrote...

*clip*

So as far as I can tell the StarBrat either contradicts what the Reaper's have told us in the past or he is truly in control and he has been lying to us from the very start. Not only this but due to the extended conversations there's now implications that he reaped his own creators ... creepy!


Agreed. If you take the endings literally, the starchild is an insane AI that twisted its shackles to brutally enslave or destroy all advanced life, synthetic and organic for millions of years, and you make a devil's bargin with it.

#36244
D.Sharrah

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If you haven't listed to this, you should:



#36245
Andromidius

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Modifié par Andromidius, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:43 .


#36246
EpyonX3

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Andromidius wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...
Wait, but Shepard wasn't indoctrinated when he had the dreams so by him having dreams in ME3 would mean that he wasn't indoctrinated and those who think so are in fact indoctrinated.

:wizard:


He wasn't indoctrinated until after you pick a wrong choice.  The beacon could be seen as the first step towards indoctrination, considering it was just used by Saren and Sovereign was relatively close by.

Saren is indoctrinated.  The Turian Counciller is just overly skeptical and trusts Saren too much.

Plus technically the Beacon didn't cause Shepard to dream, it was a telepathic message that Shep's brain was struggling to make sense of before it knocked him out cold.


But the dreams are a symptom of an indoctrination attempt right?

Then Vigil would have called Shepard out on it on Ilos. Besides, the beacons were Prothean. Saren and Soveriegn needed what was on it to find the conduit. If Sovereign was linked  to it, then He wouldn't need Saren to get the info.

Saren was yes. The Turian Councilor was acting naturally, believing his own kind over another they had a war with. Once evidence was suggested otherwise, he couldn't neglect it.

Then if they weren't dreams, then Saren's quote is innacurate and it shouldn't have any weight.

OK I just realised that you were just trying to be poetic. I apologize for being a "National Socialist" about it.

#36247
paxxton

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senshi420 wrote...

 i dont know if this is still relevant to anyone's work, but i was putting around youtube and found a video of the low EMS control only ending and figured it'd be a good resource to share.
www.youtube.com/watch


hope everyone's  shiny :D

The stills are based on the decisions you made during the game, not merely on EMS. In my ending Falere didn't shoot Samara. Posted Image


Modifié par paxxton, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .


#36248
Salient Archer

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Vaya wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

*clip*

So as far as I can tell the StarBrat either contradicts what the Reaper's have told us in the past or he is truly in control and he has been lying to us from the very start. Not only this but due to the extended conversations there's now implications that he reaped his own creators ... creepy!


Agreed. If you take the endings literally, the starchild is an insane AI that twisted its shackles to brutally enslave or destroy all advanced life, synthetic and organic for millions of years, and you make a devil's bargin with it.


Exactly! I'm glad someone knew where I was going with this. No matter what angle you look at it the StarBrat isn't to be trusted. If it's real: it's either a pathological lier or insane (or both) and if it's an illusion: it's a deception. So no matter what, we're are not meant to entertain this things path of logic.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .


#36249
Andromidius

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EpyonX3 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...
Wait, but Shepard wasn't indoctrinated when he had the dreams so by him having dreams in ME3 would mean that he wasn't indoctrinated and those who think so are in fact indoctrinated.

:wizard:


He wasn't indoctrinated until after you pick a wrong choice.  The beacon could be seen as the first step towards indoctrination, considering it was just used by Saren and Sovereign was relatively close by.

Saren is indoctrinated.  The Turian Counciller is just overly skeptical and trusts Saren too much.

Plus technically the Beacon didn't cause Shepard to dream, it was a telepathic message that Shep's brain was struggling to make sense of before it knocked him out cold.


But the dreams are a symptom of an indoctrination attempt right?

Then Vigil would have called Shepard out on it on Ilos. Besides, the beacons were Prothean. Saren and Soveriegn needed what was on it to find the conduit. If Sovereign was linked  to it, then He wouldn't need Saren to get the info.

Saren was yes. The Turian Councilor was acting naturally, believing his own kind over another they had a war with. Once evidence was suggested otherwise, he couldn't neglect it.

Then if they weren't dreams, then Saren's quote is innacurate and it shouldn't have any weight.

OK I just realised that you were just trying to be poetic. I apologize for being a "National Socialist" about it.


1/ Its one symptom.  But then people dream normally.  Its the contents of the dreams that would be suspect.

2/ As pointed out many times, Prothean VI's are rather bad at detecting indoctrination.  Especially someone who's barely begun the process.  Even fully indoctrinated agents can slip the net (as confirmed by Javik).  Not to mention Vigil was very low on power.

3/ Saren wouldn't know if they were dreams or visions - not to mention he's making an argument to brush them aside in a sarcastic and contemptous manner.

#36250
Bill Casey

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paxxton wrote...

The stills are based on the decisions you make during the game, not merely on EMS. In my ending Falere didn't shoot Samara. Posted Image


Sure that's not Jona Sedaris?





I just realized Shepard "sees" exactly what happens in each of the three choices...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .