55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Billyg3453]

DJBare wrote...

Just because something "might" be disproved does not mean an end to the discussion on the subject.
The question I've seen several times now "Why are people still discussing this?"; my question is why not?, it brings no harm and people with similar interest in the topic keep on talking, does not matter which side of the fence your on, talking is never a bad thing.

This is an excellent point. My problem for both sides, however, is when someone creates a new, one paragraph topic saying "IT is wrong/right because of x"

All discussion of indoctrination should be kept here in my opinion. Otherwise, it will never be constructive and develop into a war where nothing is decided and only hatred is developed.

There have been many facepalm.jpgs posted in a thread like "Synthesis is good because..." when someone comes in and says "Synthesis is wrong because Shepard becomes indoctrinated!!"


I respect people who can constructively discuss IT (although I do believe it has lost a lot of weight with EC), just not people who accept it and preach it as cannon.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lazengan wrote...

It's hopeless

It's like emotional film goers refusing to believe that Jack died in the Titanic, and so in their heads they create a universe in which that never happened and they get the ending they've always wanted.

They're called Fanfics

Oh I know what Fan Fiction is, for the past three years a hobby of mine has been writing fan fictions in different gaming universes. I write them not because a certain event left me disappointed though, I write to explore potential untold stories in the universe. I take a great deal of pride in fitting my stories in with the existing universe not changing, but adding to it in my own way...it is my way of honoring the series I like.

The difference between Fan Fiction and the IT however is that unlike the stories I write where while connected to the old story it is never integral to the plot that was explored.

But the IT is connected and even more importantly it has support in the events taht took place. Indoctrination and the symptoms of it are real things in the Mass Effect universe and the symptoms are there, right before our eyes and hidden in the data.

But if you have noticed very few supporting IT (at least in this thread) claims it to be a proven fact, that is why we call it the "Indoctrination Theory," but there is enough evidence, enough loose ends and strange coincedences to lend it a great deal of strength and unlike a Fan Fiction story which will never be true, IT has not been disproven by Bioware yet. 

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:25 .

[JasonSic]

Extended Cut was made to satisfy the fans:

Literalists - Satisfied
- The EC provided them with a kinda sorta outcome for each race in the galaxy.

Anti - IT'ers - Satisfied
- They think the EC disproved IT. They think they won.

Pro - IT'ers - Satisfied
- The EC provided more clues to support IT. There is still hope.

That's the way I see it.

[Lazengan]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

It's hopeless

It's like emotional film goers refusing to believe that Jack died in the Titanic, and so in their heads they create a universe in which that never happened and they get the ending they've always wanted.

They're called Fanfics

Oh I know what Fan Fiction is, for the past three years a hobby of mine has been writing fan fictions in different gaming universes. I write them not because a certain event left me disappointed though, I write to explore potential untold stories in the universe. I take a great deal of pride in fitting my stories in with the existing universe not changing, but adding to it in my own way...it is my way of honoring the series I like.

The difference between Fan Fiction and the IT however is that unlike the stories I write where while connected to the old story it is never integral to the plot that was explored.

But the IT is connected and even more importantly it has support in the events taht took place. Indoctrination and the symptoms of it are real things in the Mass Effect universe and the symptoms are there, right before our eyes and hidden in the data.

If you have noticed very few supporting IT claims it to be a proven fact, that is why we all it the "Indoctrination Theory," but there are enough evidance, enough loose ends and strange coincedences to lend it a great deal of strength and unlike a Fan Fiction story which will never be true, IT has not been disproven by Bioware yet. 

Such logic can be postulated to explain almost every work of fiction or speculative theory

if X has not been disproved by "official sources", and if I nitpick through these dots on the map and move them around a bit, they look like a giant Arrow pointing THIS WAY

Modifié par Lazengan, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lazengan wrote...

what evidence?

IT is based on assumption, game glitches, drawing connections between unrelated pieces of knowledge, disregarding facts directing elsewhere, and denies other potential.

Oh really, then we might as well give up. Months of data gathering torn down by your all powerful insight <_<

Really if you are make cliams like that then back them up. Take the hints and bits we base this theory on, disprove them one by one.

Idd especially like to know where we disregard facts.

[llbountyhunter]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12547432

Just trying to clear up some misconceptions

[Feral Knight]

I firmly believed in the indoctrination theory. There were to many in game things pointing to it and every counterargument I've heard held less water than the evidence supporting the theory. However, after Extended Cut, I believe it is well and truly dead and this is why:

I picked the Destroy ending first bc I beleived in the IT, but the ending I got disproved it. Why? Bc if this was all an illusion and Shepard is waking up in London ruble, he was never on the Citadel. He was never with the Catalyst, and thus, the Reapers were never destroyed. There could be no message of hope bc the fight wouldn't be over. Resisting indoctrination doesn't cause the Reapers to self implode.

Im sorry to say it bc I really wanted the indoctrination theory to be true, but this is too large of a loop hole to ignore. It is a fascinating, well thought out theory, but the dream is over

[Ownaholic]

JasonSic wrote...

Extended Cut was made to satisfy the fans:

Literalists - Satisfied
- The EC provided them with a kinda sorta outcome for each race in the galaxy.

Anti - IT'ers - Satisfied
- They think the EC disproved IT. They think they won.

Pro - IT'ers - Satisfied
- The EC provided more clues to support IT. There is still hope.

That's the way I see it.

Yupperrs. And that's how you make money in the gaming industry, people.

Bioware was the only real winner here.

[masster blaster]

Guys STOP it. Just get out troll before I go get our IT moderator. And like I said IT is a theory jsut like the big bang theory so there and why don5 again like I said start your own tread about IT being wrong. But what proff do you all have that's what we are trying to say to the trolls and Literalyst. Do I think you are right yes. Do I think IT is right yes, but what's you evidence to help provied that the endings are it.

Oh and by the why if you look in the EC files there is a new dlc about a rogue Reaper so ya what the catalyst said about controling the Reapers is bull, and Bioware as made no comment or denial about this so there.

[Rifneno]

JasonSic wrote...

Extended Cut was made to satisfy the fans:

Literalists - Satisfied
- The EC provided them with a kinda sorta outcome for each race in the galaxy.

Anti - IT'ers - Satisfied
- They think the EC disproved IT. They think they won.

Pro - IT'ers - Satisfied
- The EC provided more clues to support IT. There is still hope.

That's the way I see it.

I think there were about 800 "EC was a polished turd" posts when you stepped out to use the john.  801 now, because EC is a polished turd.

[dark_secret7]

Lazengan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

It's hopeless

It's like emotional film goers refusing to believe that Jack died in the Titanic, and so in their heads they create a universe in which that never happened and they get the ending they've always wanted.

They're called Fanfics

Oh I know what Fan Fiction is, for the past three years a hobby of mine has been writing fan fictions in different gaming universes. I write them not because a certain event left me disappointed though, I write to explore potential untold stories in the universe. I take a great deal of pride in fitting my stories in with the existing universe not changing, but adding to it in my own way...it is my way of honoring the series I like.

The difference between Fan Fiction and the IT however is that unlike the stories I write where while connected to the old story it is never integral to the plot that was explored.

But the IT is connected and even more importantly it has support in the events taht took place. Indoctrination and the symptoms of it are real things in the Mass Effect universe and the symptoms are there, right before our eyes and hidden in the data.

If you have noticed very few supporting IT claims it to be a proven fact, that is why we all it the "Indoctrination Theory," but there are enough evidance, enough loose ends and strange coincedences to lend it a great deal of strength and unlike a Fan Fiction story which will never be true, IT has not been disproven by Bioware yet. 

Such logic can be postulated to explain almost every work of fiction or speculative theory

if X has not been disproved by "official sources", and if I nitpick through these dots on the map and move them around a bit, they look like a giant Arrow pointing THIS WAY

This is a thread for IT-ers to discuss their own valid interpretation of the game's ending. We're not here to be trolled by you just so you can have our fun shut down. You're the one who's really "butthurt".

You're "butthurt" about freedom. Bioware made this ending and deliberately said it was ambiguous so we could all headcanon whatever we want. Ours is just a little bit more complicated than yours. We thought of something so ridiculously awesome - that you're just subconsciously pissed you didn't see yourself. I know you're afraid we might be right - but we're not - not yet, anyway.
Everyone is. Quit ruining our fun.

You don't like it and you're trying to reduce us to a simple concept that irritates you rather than the individuals we are.
You should leave and go talk on AtlasMickey's thread.

[JasonSic]

Rifneno wrote...

JasonSic wrote...

Extended Cut was made to satisfy the fans:

Literalists - Satisfied
- The EC provided them with a kinda sorta outcome for each race in the galaxy.

Anti - IT'ers - Satisfied
- They think the EC disproved IT. They think they won.

Pro - IT'ers - Satisfied
- The EC provided more clues to support IT. There is still hope.

That's the way I see it.

I think there were about 800 "EC was a polished turd" posts when you stepped out to use the john.  801 now, because EC is a polished turd.

Well yeah I'm aware of that, lol. I'm mainly just saying this was probably Bioware's intention.

[paxxton]

So is there anyone else here who supports the Control ending?

Modifié par paxxton, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:40 .

[Rifneno]

JasonSic wrote...

Well yeah I'm aware of that, lol. I'm mainly just saying this was probably Bioware's intention.

Ahh.  Sorry, I misinterpreted your post.  I thought you meant that's how it worked out rather than it being their intention.

[Rifneno]

paxxton wrote...

So is there anyone else here who supports the Control ending?

The Illusive Man.

[Billyg3453]

masster blaster wrote...

Guys STOP it. Just get out troll before I go get our IT moderator. And like I said IT is a theory jsut like the big bang theory so there and why don5 again like I said start your own tread about IT being wrong. But what proff do you all have that's what we are trying to say to the trolls and Literalyst. Do I think you are right yes. Do I think IT is right yes, but what's you evidence to help provied that the endings are it.

Oh and by the why if you look in the EC files there is a new dlc about a rogue Reaper so ya what the catalyst said about controling the Reapers is bull, and Bioware as made no comment or denial about this so there.

Modifié par Billyg3453, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:40 .

[masster blaster]

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So is there anyone else here who supports the Control ending?

The Illusive Man.

Well...better that than nothing...

[TSA_383]

Lazengan wrote...

what evidence?

IT is based on assumption, game glitches, drawing connections between unrelated pieces of knowledge, disregarding facts directing elsewhere, and denies other potential.

IT is based upon the following assumptions:

1-The reapers would want to indoctrinate Shepard.
(To quote Harbinger from ME2 - "Struggle if you must, your mind will be ours" - seems reasonable, no?)

2-An unshackled AI that reaperised its creators and controls the reaper forces is not to be trusted
(Duh? Really?)

3-Bioware does not operate an equal opportunity policy towards hiring babboons as writers.

4-Something is very intentionally surreal about the end sequence.


Plus a whole bunch of speculation over more minor stuff in the games, breakdowns of the game code, leaks of future DLC etc etc etc.

The literal interpretation is based on:

1-Bioware are incredibly lazy and can't write for ****.
2-You can totally trust the reapers when they tell you that synthesis is the final evolution of life, and because the reapers want it that totally makes it the right thing to do.
3-See #1.


Obviously there's more to it on both sides, but if you're not going to put proper points into your arguments then I'll be damned if I'm writing an essay for your benefit

Rifneno wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Literatist are like those who refuse to believe the earth was a sphere  despite the mounting evidence.

What
makes me chuckle is how they always call us zealots when they remind me
so much of creationists.  Screw scientific approaches and evidence, if
you don't see things their way you're a heathen!  LOL.

^However, when you come out with statements like this you just sound like you're in denial.

Keep calm, try not to argue, debate actual useful evidence (like the stuff from the Leviathan DLC etc?).

[dark_secret7]

TSA_383 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

what evidence?

IT is based on assumption, game glitches, drawing connections between unrelated pieces of knowledge, disregarding facts directing elsewhere, and denies other potential.

IT is based upon the following assumptions:

1-The reapers would want to indoctrinate Shepard.
(To quote Harbinger from ME2 - "Struggle if you must, your mind will be ours" - seems reasonable, no?)

2-An unshackled AI that reaperised its creators and controls the reaper forces is not to be trusted
(Duh? Really?)

3-Bioware does not operate an equal opportunity policy towards hiring babboons as writers.

4-Something is very intentionally surreal about the end sequence.


Plus a whole bunch of speculation over more minor stuff in the games, breakdowns of the game code, leaks of future DLC etc etc etc.

The literal interpretation is based on:

1-Bioware are incredibly lazy and can't write for ****.
2-You can totally trust the reapers when they tell you that synthesis is the final evolution of life, and because the reapers want it that totally makes it the right thing to do.
3-See #1.


Obviously there's more to it on both sides, but if you're not going to put proper points into your arguments then I'll be damned if I'm writing an essay for your benefit

Rifneno wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Literatist are like those who refuse to believe the earth was a sphere  despite the mounting evidence.

What
makes me chuckle is how they always call us zealots when they remind me
so much of creationists.  Screw scientific approaches and evidence, if
you don't see things their way you're a heathen!  LOL.

^However, when you come out with statements like this you just sound like you're in denial.

Keep calm, try not to argue, debate actual useful evidence (like the stuff from the Leviathan DLC etc?).

THIS.

[Billyg3453]

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

[XanderLav]

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

[paxxton]

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

Probably because the game loads both models (a single disk access) and then chooses which to expose based on a conditional variable. Or maybe not.

Flycams have to be used sensibly because they can also show things that are merely programming/design optimizations.

Modifié par paxxton, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:57 .

[Billyg3453]

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

[TSA_383]

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

There is a serious problem with people adding lots of stuff that's not there.

However, I personally can't work out why BW would add Coates in the reaper tunnel (he wasn't there pre-EC) and why they'd add a second keeper whose sole purpose it would seem is to remove and study Coates' helmet....