55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Billyg3453]

TSA_383 wrote...
There is a serious problem with people adding lots of stuff that's not there.

However, I personally can't work out why BW would add Coates in the reaper tunnel (he wasn't there pre-EC) and why they'd add a second keeper whose sole purpose it would seem is to remove and study Coates' helmet....

I agree. Yet that does not mean it has anything to do with indoctrination.

[XanderLav]

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

No no no, I'm not saying that Coats proves anything, because he doesn't. I'm just saying that the fact that he is in the same room with Shepard is wierd and unclear we dont know what is the purpose behind it. And I'm also saying that there is difference between M Coats location and Anderson. BW knew that somebody will find Coats body on citadel, so they added it as fuel for speculations.

[Dwailing]

TSA_383 wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

There is a serious problem with people adding lots of stuff that's not there.

However, I personally can't work out why BW would add Coates in the reaper tunnel (he wasn't there pre-EC) and why they'd add a second keeper whose sole purpose it would seem is to remove and study Coates' helmet....

Actually, if you look, I think that helmet is really Shepard's old N7 helmet.  The main reason I say this is I can't see the little Alliance logo on it, and I think I can see the red stripe on top.

Modifié par Dwailing, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:01 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

Agreed it dosent directly hint (considering it is not confirmed, the word proof cannot be used) at Indoctrination, but it defiently is another point in the fact that soem strange **** is happening in the ending.

[dreamgazer]

Billyg3453 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
There is a serious problem with people adding lots of stuff that's not there.

However, I personally can't work out why BW would add Coates in the reaper tunnel (he wasn't there pre-EC) and why they'd add a second keeper whose sole purpose it would seem is to remove and study Coates' helmet....

I agree. Yet that does not mean it has anything to do with indoctrination.

Yet, if you were to start another topic about this oddity anywhere else on the forum, it'll turn into an indoctrination flame war.  Hence, this thread: it's a bit of a catch-all in terms of the figurative elements in the game.  Always has been, as far as I've seen.  

To tell you the truth, I largely avoid a lot of those pieces of "evidence", and stick to the story fundamentals and things that are palpably observable in forumlating my viewpoint (which, admittedly, is pretty different than others in the thread, in that it doesn't bank on the "theory" aspect).  The rest are curiosities; a few of them, however, are intriguing. 

But the core of the idea---as TSA_383 had the patience to post above---remains intact and viable for interpretation in several ways, both literal and figurative. And I'm just about dead certain that BioWare didn't intend for everything to be entirely face-value. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:10 .

[dark_secret7]

Wow. There's actually more to that gun-changing thing in the destroy ending than I was previously aware of.
The sound effects actually change from Carnifex to Predator as Shepard straightens up while shooting the power conduit.
Maybe it is a glitch, who knows? But it's pretty darn interesting.

Modifié par dark_secret7, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:14 .

[Billyg3453]

dreamgazer wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
There is a serious problem with people adding lots of stuff that's not there.

However, I personally can't work out why BW would add Coates in the reaper tunnel (he wasn't there pre-EC) and why they'd add a second keeper whose sole purpose it would seem is to remove and study Coates' helmet....

I agree. Yet that does not mean it has anything to do with indoctrination.

Yet, if you were to start another topic about this oddity anywhere else on the forum, it'll turn into an indoctrination flame war.  Hence, this thread: it's a bit of a catch-all in terms of the figurative elements in the game.  Always has been, as far as I've seen.  

To tell you the truth, I largely avoid a lot of those pieces of "evidence", and stick to the story fundamentals and things that are palpably observable in forumlating my viewpoint (which, admittedly, is pretty different than others in the thread, in that it doesn't bank on the "theory" aspect).  The rest are curiosities; a few of them, however, are intriguing. 

But the core of the idea---as TSA_383 had the patience to post above---remains intact and viable for interpretation in several ways, both literal and figurative. And I'm just about dead certain that BioWare didn't intend for everything to be entirely face-value. 

Yes this thread is the only place where Indoc can be discussed civilly, which is why I can't stand seeing "I was right because..." threads, regardless of what side they are on.

Before EC, I thought IT was a legitimite viewpoint. Now however, I have a hard time believing you can ignore the out-of-game statements and logic to arrive at the conclusion that EC only expanded on the dream Shep was having unconcious on the streets of London.

[masster blaster]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

Agreed it dosent directly hint (considering it is not confirmed, the word proof cannot be used) at Indoctrination, but it defiently is another point in the fact that soem strange **** is happening in the ending.

Well it can support IT becaues if and I say if Coats is on the Citadle and is not just there to be a representation of an Alliance soldier then why do we hear Coats when Shepard wakes up and surly Bioware newabout hte Coats speech of FULL BACK and about the fly cameras so ya it"s weird that a Coats body is on the Citadle but disappers when Shepard wakes up.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .

[Dwailing]

dark_secret7 wrote...

Wow. There's actually more to that gun-changing thing in the destroy ending than I was previously aware of.
The sound effects actually change from Carnifex to Predator as Shepard straightens up while shooting the power conduit.
Maybe it is a glitch, who knows? But it's pretty darn interesting.

The Carnifex sound was plenty awesome to begin with, why would they change it for that scene?  That would seem to suggest that something is up with the Carnifex.

Modifié par Dwailing, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:17 .

[paxxton]

masster blaster wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

Agreed it dosent directly hint (considering it is not confirmed, the word proof cannot be used) at Indoctrination, but it defiently is another point in the fact that soem strange **** is happening in the ending.

Well it can support IT becaues if and I say if Coats is on the Citadle and is not just there to be a representation of an Alliance soldier then why do we hear Coats when Shepard wakes up and surly Bioware newabout hte Coats speech of FULL BACK and about the fly cameras so ya it"s weird that a Coats body is on the Citadle but disappers when Shepard wakes up.

That's weird.

[masster blaster]

Oh and in the EC they did fix a few bugs in the begging of the game so surly they would have fixed the gun changing at the in Destroy and would have changed the scenery in the Breath scene to match it the Scenery on the Citadel.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:19 .

[masster blaster]

paxxton wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

Agreed it dosent directly hint (considering it is not confirmed, the word proof cannot be used) at Indoctrination, but it defiently is another point in the fact that soem strange **** is happening in the ending.

Well it can support IT becaues if and I say if Coats is on the Citadle and is not just there to be a representation of an Alliance soldier then why do we hear Coats when Shepard wakes up and surly Bioware newabout hte Coats speech of FULL BACK and about the fly cameras so ya it"s weird that a Coats body is on the Citadle but disappers when Shepard wakes up.

That's weird.

ya that is so is the end game real or is it and hullusionaton.

[paxxton]

masster blaster wrote...

paxxton wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

XanderLav wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Look back to what we were talking about I think that Coats is dead because if this was the real end deal then why is Coats on the Citadle and we do have evidnece for that.

Why is Anderson standing outside your door at the beginning of the game and why is Kaiden's beaten body behind Ashley's stretcher?

Because if you use flycam, you find things you're not supposed to.

I would have agreed with you but, BW added body that resembles coats in EC. And at this point they know for sure that fans will go through every single file, every single second of the final chapter with flycam or not. 

I just don't think you can use weird textures and the file names to prove an "interpretation of art"

When I was a fan of IT, the only thing I argued was that the end sequence fit everything in the indoc codex entry. Now it's expanded to textures resembling dead people, computer sounds, and club names being "proof" of indoctrination.

So having a body that resembles a minor character unrelated to Shepard that you can only see in flycam should not be used as evidence of indoctrination.

Agreed it dosent directly hint (considering it is not confirmed, the word proof cannot be used) at Indoctrination, but it defiently is another point in the fact that soem strange **** is happening in the ending.

Well it can support IT becaues if and I say if Coats is on the Citadle and is not just there to be a representation of an Alliance soldier then why do we hear Coats when Shepard wakes up and surly Bioware newabout hte Coats speech of FULL BACK and about the fly cameras so ya it"s weird that a Coats body is on the Citadle but disappers when Shepard wakes up.

That's weird.

ya that is so is the end game real or is it and hullusionaton.

It would suggest the latter. Bodies don't just vanish.

[MaximizedAction]

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and in the EC they did fix a few bugs in the begging of the game so surly they would have fixed the gun changing at the in Destroy and would have changed the scenery in the Breath scene to match it the Scenery on the Citadel.

Just as they fixed the clipping for that Keeper. It also doesn't look at you directly, anymore. With the EC I think it's clear now what is absolutely intended and what was not.

Dwailing wrote...

dark_secret7 wrote...

Wow. There's actually more to that gun-changing thing in the destroy ending than I was previously aware of.
The sound effects actually change from Carnifex to Predator as Shepard straightens up while shooting the power conduit.
Maybe it is a glitch, who knows? But it's pretty darn interesting.

The
Carnifex sound was plenty awesome to begin with, why would they change
it for that scene?  That would seem to suggest that something is up with
the Carnifex.

Also, I love how now the Carnifex sound has been pimped for the Catalyst area; only need to figure out what the second echo is...

[Dwailing]

MaximizedAction wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and in the EC they did fix a few bugs in the begging of the game so surly they would have fixed the gun changing at the in Destroy and would have changed the scenery in the Breath scene to match it the Scenery on the Citadel.

Just as they fixed the clipping for that Keeper. It also doesn't look at you directly, anymore. With the EC I think it's clear now what is absolutely intended and what was not.

Dwailing wrote...

dark_secret7 wrote...

Wow. There's actually more to that gun-changing thing in the destroy ending than I was previously aware of.
The sound effects actually change from Carnifex to Predator as Shepard straightens up while shooting the power conduit.
Maybe it is a glitch, who knows? But it's pretty darn interesting.

The
Carnifex sound was plenty awesome to begin with, why would they change
it for that scene?  That would seem to suggest that something is up with
the Carnifex.

Also, I love how now the Carnifex sound has been pimped for the Catalyst area; only need to figure out what the second echo is...

Like I said before on the thread, I'm not sure if I hear Anderson's grunt, but I know for CERTAIN that I hear part of the Carnifex echo when I alt-tab out of the game.

[paxxton]

MaximizedAction wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and in the EC they did fix a few bugs in the begging of the game so surly they would have fixed the gun changing at the in Destroy and would have changed the scenery in the Breath scene to match it the Scenery on the Citadel.

Just as they fixed the clipping for that Keeper. It also doesn't look at you directly, anymore. With the EC I think it's clear now what is absolutely intended and what was not.

You mean that you can no longer walk through the Keeper (collision detection)? What do you mean "doesn't look at you directly anymore"? Did it do that?

[masster blaster]

Ya Paxxton it didwhen shepard would walk by the Keeper it would stair at Shepard and do nothing.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:30 .

[paxxton]

masster blaster wrote...

Ya Paxxton it did wheb Shepard would walk by the Keeper it would stair at Shepard and do nothing.

LOL. I didn't notice that.

Modifié par paxxton, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:30 .

[MaximizedAction]

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and in the EC they did fix a few bugs in the begging of the game so surly they would have fixed the gun changing at the in Destroy and would have changed the scenery in the Breath scene to match it the Scenery on the Citadel.

Just as they fixed the clipping for that Keeper. It also doesn't look at you directly, anymore. With the EC I think it's clear now what is absolutely intended and what was not.

You mean that you can no longer walk through the Keeper (collision detection)? What do you mean "doesn't look at you directly anymore"? Did it do that?

Sorry, meant 'look at Shepard'. Pre-EC the camera showed the first Keeper look back at the portal-thingy. Which was strange, as they were supposed to never get distracted by what's happening around them.
I think we don't see it look at the portal, anymore, but they show the Keeper playing with the helmet, instead.

Although, the Keeper does look to its right, when Shepard walks by him.

[paxxton]

MaximizedAction wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and in the EC they did fix a few bugs in the begging of the game so surly they would have fixed the gun changing at the in Destroy and would have changed the scenery in the Breath scene to match it the Scenery on the Citadel.

Just as they fixed the clipping for that Keeper. It also doesn't look at you directly, anymore. With the EC I think it's clear now what is absolutely intended and what was not.

You mean that you can no longer walk through the Keeper (collision detection)? What do you mean "doesn't look at you directly anymore"? Did it do that?

Sorry, meant 'look at Shepard'. Pre-EC the camera showed the first Keeper look back at the portal-thingy. Which was strange, as they were supposed to never get distracted by what's happening around them.
I think we don't see it look at the portal, anymore, but they show the Keeper playing with the helmet, instead.

Although, the Keeper does look to its right, when Shepard walks by him.

I have to check it  because I could swear he looked behind when Shepard arrived. Also, notice when he grabs the gun from the floor. In pre-EC Shepard was standing, in the EC he's still on his knees.

[MaximizedAction]

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and in the EC they did fix a few bugs in the begging of the game so surly they would have fixed the gun changing at the in Destroy and would have changed the scenery in the Breath scene to match it the Scenery on the Citadel.

Just as they fixed the clipping for that Keeper. It also doesn't look at you directly, anymore. With the EC I think it's clear now what is absolutely intended and what was not.

You mean that you can no longer walk through the Keeper (collision detection)? What do you mean "doesn't look at you directly anymore"? Did it do that?

Sorry, meant 'look at Shepard'. Pre-EC the camera showed the first Keeper look back at the portal-thingy. Which was strange, as they were supposed to never get distracted by what's happening around them.
I think we don't see it look at the portal, anymore, but they show the Keeper playing with the helmet, instead.

Although, the Keeper does look to its right, when Shepard walks by him.

I have to check it  because I could swear he looked behind when Shepard arrived. Also, notice when he grabs the gun from the floor. In pre-EC Shepard was standing, in the EC he's still on his knees.

I think you're right.

[masster blaster]

Yep Paxxton is right about Shepard graving the gun in the pre-EC standing up. And now Shepard is on his/her knees when Shepard pick up theCarflenix.

[Ninja Stan]

Watch the quote pyramids, folks. Try to cut them down so the quote include only what you're directly responding to rather than the entire conversation.

[Dwailing]

masster blaster wrote...

Yep Paxxton is right about Shepard graving the gun in the pre-EC standing up. And now Shepard is on his/her knees when Shepard pick up theCarflenix.

Huh, going with the Gun is Shepard's Willpower Hypothesis (Theory?), it makes sense that Shepard would pick up the gun each time.  After being knocked out by the beam (I'm not sure at this point if the run down the hill was a complete hallucination, though I'm certain that parts of it were.), Shepard "wakes up" and finds the gun, his will to go on.  Then when he gets on the Citadel, he picks up the gun, and actually uses it to get back on his feet, again, showing that it represents his will to go on.  Then, when he reaches the Catalyst chamber, it just appears in his hand when the choice comes and his will to continue is at it's weakest.  Anyone else agree?

[Simon_Says]

Christ, people are again arguing over IT and making asses of themelves on both sides because, again, they fail to distinguish between...

• Indoc Theory the interpretation of the ending.
• Indoc Theory the theory that Bioware intends the indoctrination of Shepard to be the definitive canon.

These are two completely seperate arguments and should be treated as such. EC hasn't killed the former. In fact it supports it in many ways. The latter has been dealt significant blows by EC, but again it hasn't been killed outright. Though personally I think the latter is an irelevent argument anyway.

I think the IT interpreation is the best way to view and enjoy the ending of Mass Effect 3. I personally feel I got the victory I was looking forward to. And since Bioware has not gone out of their way to tell me that IT is wrong, then obviously IT has done something right, Bioware recognized that, and has respectfully allowed it to survive. At this point I don't care if it's the one true canon.

And if you're going to come here and tell me that because it's only fancanon it's crap, or that the fancanon itself is crap, well screw you then. You obviously don't understand that a story can become more than just what the author writes, and you don't understand that our fanwanking is not your problem.

Also, for those who've abandoned supporting IT because the EC apparently doesn't support the hallucination hypothesis, I'll quote myself.

Simon_Says wrote...

The EC changed the data we had to work with. Before, we developed the dream sequence hypothesis because it was the best way to explain Shepard surviving an explosion that was clearly depicted as breaking the entire Citadel apart, Shepard showing much less of their inquisitive nature when talking with the Catalyst, as well as Normandy's retreat, among other things. Yet now that isn't the case because EC has in some way or another touched upon these reasons, isn't a dream sequence now not strictly necessary for Indoc Theory?

Yes, I believe the breath scene still makes more sense as being on Earth. (Though I’m unsure whether or not the game’s ending took place on Earth in a dream sequence given what else we see in the EC. This is a tricky subject that I think merits more discussion.) I'll try to find the images to prove it, but the breath scene contains assets identical in shape and texture to concrete blocks found on Earth and Benning. It's visibly obvious that it's concrete. These assets are never shown citadel locations. Additionally, I cannot recall evidence of the existence of concrete-like materials anywhere on the Citadel, in any of the games or other media. Not to mention that the existence of concrete on an alien space station as anything more than decorative or for extremely minor applications is simply not plausible.

As for the cables, as mentioned before, cables of similar design are present throughout the game in both single and multiplayer, including areas where such cables are obviously not of reaper origin. Even though loose cables such as those have not been discovered on the Earth missions yet, one must remember that reapers and reapertech were strewn throughout London. The cables could feasibly be from, say, the conduit.

Not that this matters, as I've explained before. Since the dream sequence isn't a neccesary part of Indoctrination Theory anymore, debunking the claim that Shepard was still on Earth is not going to debunk Indoctrination Theory as a whole. Yes, the title of the thread asks if Mass Effect 3's climax was a hallucination, but the real core of Indoc Theory is the idea that Shepard's mind is under attack throughout the game and most particularily during the final sequences, and that Shepard/The Player must overcome that to achieve true victory. That much hasn't changed.