Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


55528 réponses à ce sujet

#3726
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages
Wanted to repost this so that you guys have an interpretation defense. Please check out the web page linked to. It's written by a college professor. Disclamer: None of this copied post is meant to apply to those who frequent this thread and agree with IT. It's only for the I.T. skeptics.

...Erield wrote...

2. Occam's razor: "is a principle urging one to select among competing hypotheses that
which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest
explanation
of the effect." [source: Wikipedia.] Anti-IT theory makes two
assumptions. First, what is presented in the game is 'real' so far as
we are concerned, in how it affects Shepard. Second, perceived
plot-holes and inconsistencies can be directly attributed to poor
storytelling exposition or rushed delivery of the game.



Trying to use Occam's Razor for Literary Interpretation again. You guys look like you never took a literature class in your lives when you do this.

You can't apply Occam's Razor to Literature (stories in movies, games, books, poetry) because of the fact that Hidden Meanings exist in stories, sometimes even without the author's concious intent. This means situations, events, and the meaning of the work can be more complex than what one would assume in a literal interpretation. Long story, short: You can't use a scientific tool to judge if a literary interpretation is true, especially when it has merit based on evidence gathered from the story.

Now you can say " it was rushed" all you like, but Bioware are storytellers and even rushed storytellers can place metaphors and symbolism in their work. It's not hard to to quickly do at all, if you have any talent at writing. Ask any writer.

From that page, which is the work of a college professor in English 211 at Goucher College in Baltimore, MD, :

" Most students begin by being very skeptical of the notion that there are "hidden meanings" in literature. This resembles a very wise logical rule called "Occam's razor," after William of Occam (or Ockham), the 14th-century monk who used it in logical debates about the metaphysics of angels and salvation. "Occam's razor" says that, when trying to explain something, we shouldn't unnecessarily multiply the number of invisible entities necessary to make it happen (e.g., angels, demons, aether, deans, etc.). The principle is an outgrowth of Aristotelian thinking that emphasizes the study of the material world using rational interpretations of independently verifiable phenomena. So we want words to mean what the dictionary says they mean for very good reasons. However, there are several other good reasons why literature might contain hidden meanings, that is, meanings that are not readily obvious to the casual reader and that can't be found in ordinary dictionaries. "

And this is what I see everytime one of you uses Occam's Razor on literature. You appear skeptical of hidden meanings in literature, which is silly since even the simplest Fairy Tales such as Cinderella and Red Riding Hood have a deeper meaning beneath that is not readily apparent without critical thinking.

It goes on to list the reasons. I won't post the entire page. The point is, it is the wrong tool to use when considering literary interpretations. Also, by the way (and not to single you out on this but I see it often), literary interpretations are not conspiracy theories nor are they religious in nature when dealing with a non-religious text. Saying so only shows an individual's incompetance in analytically interpreting literature or even considering serious analytical interpretation of art in general. In short, it shows you have no imagination nor the motive to use it to read the symbolism and metaphor of the arts.

Now, if this sounds condescending to you, then you have thin skin, for I am speaking only truth. If any of you have had a literature class in Junior High, High School, or at a University, this should all be common sense.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 21 mai 2012 - 03:44 .


#3727
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages
It's still strange it changes where it pops up and that this "glitch" has a pattern.

#3728
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Okay there is definitely a pattern, just completed Rannoch and as I said the "signal" from Aequitas vanished.
That makes:
First playthrough: from Thessia to End
Second playthrough: from Rannoch to Thessia
Third playthrough: from Tuchanka to Rannoch


Oh that is so cool! I guess a fourth playthrough is a given, right?

#3729
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I apply Occam's razor (appropriate or not) I find IT to be the simplest explanation.
Possibility 1: Company well known for very good writing makes one of the worst endings to anything ever. They made this mistake because they are terrible writers, or so I am told.
Possibility 2: Company well known for very good writing makes a fake ending to trick people but leaves many clues, both in-game and out.

I find 2 to be the more plausible to be honest.

#3730
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I apply Occam's razor (appropriate or not) I find IT to be the simplest explanation.
Possibility 1: Company well known for very good writing makes one of the worst endings to anything ever. They made this mistake because they are terrible writers, or so I am told.
Possibility 2: Company well known for very good writing makes a fake ending to trick people but leaves many clues, both in-game and out.

I find 2 to be the more plausible to be honest.


And I with you, sir!

#3731
Unschuld

Unschuld
  • Members
  • 3 468 messages

EpyonX3 wrote...

I think it's a glitch, they probably reused the galaxy map code from ME2 and forgot to take it out.

And before i get attacked, This DOES NOT make bioware lazy. Developers do this all the time and it's perfectly reasonable. It's just unrealistic for any game this complex to be bug free or contain 100% new code and assets.


I'd agree with you except for the fact that even though the galaxy map is similar/operates similar to ME2, I don't think it's completely the same. Not to mention they scrapped a perfectly good mission journal system for that utter piece of crap in ME3. Why the hell?

#3732
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Okay there is definitely a pattern, just completed Rannoch and as I said the "signal" from Aequitas vanished.
That makes:
First playthrough: from Thessia to End
Second playthrough: from Rannoch to Thessia
Third playthrough: from Tuchanka to Rannoch


Oh that is so cool! I guess a fourth playthrough is a given, right?

Sure... here I was planning to do another character from ME1 to ME3 some days ago :D

#3733
blooregard

blooregard
  • Members
  • 1 151 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Okay there is definitely a pattern, just completed Rannoch and as I said the "signal" from Aequitas vanished.
That makes:
First playthrough: from Thessia to End
Second playthrough: from Rannoch to Thessia
Third playthrough: from Tuchanka to Rannoch


Oh that is so cool! I guess a fourth playthrough is a given, right?

Sure... here I was planning to do another character from ME1 to ME3 some days ago :D



The human is lost...Whats going on with aequitas now? I remember it had that indoctrination device in ME2 but thats all I got atm.

#3734
Unschuld

Unschuld
  • Members
  • 3 468 messages

blooregard wrote...
The human is lost...Whats going on with aequitas now? I remember it had that indoctrination device in ME2 but thats all I got atm.


The planet is highlighted (at certain points) during ME3 like there's a mission, but there is no mission there.

#3735
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages

Unschuld wrote...

blooregard wrote...
The human is lost...Whats going on with aequitas now? I remember it had that indoctrination device in ME2 but thats all I got atm.


The planet is highlighted (at certain points) during ME3 like there's a mission, but there is no mission there.


The point is the time it is highlighted varies between playthroughs, apparently in a pattern.

#3736
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

blooregard wrote...
The human is lost...Whats going on with aequitas now? I remember it had that indoctrination device in ME2 but thats all I got atm.


The planet is highlighted (at certain points) during ME3 like there's a mission, but there is no mission there.


The point is the time it is highlighted varies between playthroughs, apparently in a pattern.


The pattern seems to be not unique: I'm on my second playthrough, and it's highlighted before I've started Rannoch. Megumi had it highlighted after Rannoch on her second run.

#3737
blooregard

blooregard
  • Members
  • 1 151 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

blooregard wrote...
The human is lost...Whats going on with aequitas now? I remember it had that indoctrination device in ME2 but thats all I got atm.


The planet is highlighted (at certain points) during ME3 like there's a mission, but there is no mission there.


The point is the time it is highlighted varies between playthroughs, apparently in a pattern.



...but we don't know what this pattern is or what it means

#3738
Raistlin Majare 1992

Raistlin Majare 1992
  • Members
  • 2 101 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

Now you can say " it was rushed" all you like, but Bioware are storytellers and even rushed storytellers can place metaphors and symbolism in their work. It's not hard to to quickly do at all, if you have any talent at writing. Ask any writer.


This I can agree with. I write stories, mostly fan fiction, as ahobby in my free time, I dont have any formal eductaion in it beyond the most basic.

But I can certainly agree with the above. If you know how a story is gonna go, the twists and turns and events ahead of time, which as the writer you should, it is not hard to twist your writing or place certain items/sentences that in reality hint towards something deeper even if it is not readily apperent.

And that is one of the reasons IT seems so logical to me. When I look upon Mass Effect, the entire series, I cant beleive that the same team that wrote it all, also wrote the ending without looking at IT. These people would have known from quite a while away where they wanted it to end and build towards it, i cant beleive writers who have shown themselves to be so talented would write an ending which goes so much against everything else...it feels like an entirely different writing team entirely in those last minutes.

But that is when you start to look deeper as we ahve done, pick up the pieces scattered along the road and peirce together a different picture. Those pieces we find havent been hard to scatter if my personal experience is any indicator, the difficulty has been striking the balance between obvius and illusive, something they seem to have mastered.

Despite all our hints I doubt anyone here is 100% certain on the IT. They might be 99% certain, but I am pretty sure most here still have that little voice in their head saying "but what if it is not IT?"

But all we can do is keep looking and waiting.

#3739
blooregard

blooregard
  • Members
  • 1 151 messages

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Now you can say " it was rushed" all you like, but Bioware are storytellers and even rushed storytellers can place metaphors and symbolism in their work. It's not hard to to quickly do at all, if you have any talent at writing. Ask any writer.


This I can agree with. I write stories, mostly fan fiction, as ahobby in my free time, I dont have any formal eductaion in it beyond the most basic.

But I can certainly agree with the above. If you know how a story is gonna go, the twists and turns and events ahead of time, which as the writer you should, it is not hard to twist your writing or place certain items/sentences that in reality hint towards something deeper even if it is not readily apperent.

And that is one of the reasons IT seems so logical to me. When I look upon Mass Effect, the entire series, I cant beleive that the same team that wrote it all, also wrote the ending without looking at IT. These people would have known from quite a while away where they wanted it to end and build towards it, i cant beleive writers who have shown themselves to be so talented would write an ending which goes so much against everything else...it feels like an entirely different writing team entirely in those last minutes.

But that is when you start to look deeper as we ahve done, pick up the pieces scattered along the road and peirce together a different picture. Those pieces we find havent been hard to scatter if my personal experience is any indicator, the difficulty has been striking the balance between obvius and illusive, something they seem to have mastered.

Despite all our hints I doubt anyone here is 100% certain on the IT. They might be 99% certain, but I am pretty sure most here still have that little voice in their head saying "but what if it is not IT?"

But all we can do is keep looking and waiting.




I'm ready to accept the IT with open arms on the assumption it is true.

However my standards aren't high so if they give us at least one ending we asked for I'd be willing to accept it. As of now we have "6" endings none of which are satasfying or what we were promised.

#3740
EpyonX3

EpyonX3
  • Members
  • 2 374 messages

Unschuld wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

I think it's a glitch, they probably reused the galaxy map code from ME2 and forgot to take it out.

And before i get attacked, This DOES NOT make bioware lazy. Developers do this all the time and it's perfectly reasonable. It's just unrealistic for any game this complex to be bug free or contain 100% new code and assets.


I'd agree with you except for the fact that even though the galaxy map is similar/operates similar to ME2, I don't think it's completely the same. Not to mention they scrapped a perfectly good mission journal system for that utter piece of crap in ME3. Why the hell?


I think they imported it and changed some of the components to fit the new Journal. It wouldn't make snese for them to redo the galaxy map for it.

#3741
balance5050

balance5050
  • Members
  • 5 245 messages
At least we got our official Bioware tag back.

#3742
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages
What is the point in thinking it's a glitch? It fits very well as a clue towards IT and it is not a stretch at all to think that it's intentional. It's far LESS likely to be a glitch, since there would likely also be other glitches of that same kind to go along with it, and ones that wouldnt so conveniently work as a clue towards IT.

#3743
Unschuld

Unschuld
  • Members
  • 3 468 messages

HellishFiend wrote...

What is the point in thinking it's a glitch? It fits very well as a clue towards IT and it is not a stretch at all to think that it's intentional. It's far LESS likely to be a glitch, since there would likely also be other glitches of that same kind to go along with it, and ones that wouldnt so conveniently work as a clue towards IT.


And of all the glitches that could have happened, it happened to be a planet from ME2 with an indoctrination device/Reaper artifact. Man, all these random glitches involving indoctrination crap are really starting to pile up.

#3744
draken-heart

draken-heart
  • Members
  • 4 009 messages
i posted this in another thread but:

my current thought is that there is some underlying theme in ME, and i think i know what that theme is: SHEPARD IS SPECIAL.currently i think that since the end of ME1, Shepard has been the main target of the Reapers. Sovereign only became interested in Shepard because he/she was a thorn in its side. any human that was fighting saren's, and ultimately Sovy's plan would be a thorn in its side. afterwards, Shepard became a symbol of humanity's determination, and such Harbinger started abducting humans to get Shepard more involved with fighting the collectors. the start of ME3 could be seen as Harby getting Shepard's attention by attacking the birth planet of humanity. the end of ME3 is a fight for Shepard control not just a war against the reapers.

Synthesis: Reapers win and Shepard is under their control
Control: Shepard dies and short-circuits the reapers' shields allowing the allied forces to destroy them once and for all
Destroy: Shepard maintains control of himself/herself, gets up and personally leads one last assault against the reapers...

i think it explains the IT and provides an ending to the series.

#3745
byne

byne
  • Members
  • 7 813 messages
One thing that has been bugging me recently is the fact that even in the strict literal interpretation of the endings, Shepard has to be at least somewhat indoctrinated for them to make any sense at all.

TIM does not have the power to take over other peoples' bodies and remotely control them. He only has the ability to control indoctrinated people and Reaper husks.

Unless you think TIM is a bloodbender (I've been watching Avatar recently, so bloodbending came to mind), he doesnt have the ability to control people who arent indoctrinated to some degree.

Before you say 'Maybe he was controlling her through her implants,' remember he was also controlling Anderson, who has no implants.

So even if you dont believe in IT, you kind of have to accept that Shep (as well as Anderson to some degree) was indoctrinated for even the literal endings to make any kind of sense.

#3746
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

draken-heart wrote...

i posted this in another thread but:

my current thought is that there is some underlying theme in ME, and i think i know what that theme is: SHEPARD IS SPECIAL.currently i think that since the end of ME1, Shepard has been the main target of the Reapers. Sovereign only became interested in Shepard because he/she was a thorn in its side. any human that was fighting saren's, and ultimately Sovy's plan would be a thorn in its side. afterwards, Shepard became a symbol of humanity's determination, and such Harbinger started abducting humans to get Shepard more involved with fighting the collectors. the start of ME3 could be seen as Harby getting Shepard's attention by attacking the birth planet of humanity. the end of ME3 is a fight for Shepard control not just a war against the reapers.

Synthesis: Reapers win and Shepard is under their control
Control: Shepard dies and short-circuits the reapers' shields allowing the allied forces to destroy them once and for all
Destroy: Shepard maintains control of himself/herself, gets up and personally leads one last assault against the reapers...

i think it explains the IT and provides an ending to the series.


I personally think the Reapers are so interested in Shepard because he'll make the perfect consciousness for the Human Reaper. I also think that the so called "Dark Energy" ending was an intentional leak intended as a red herring/misdirection to throw off the players so they wouldnt see the real ending coming. I think by picking control (and posssibly synthesis too), you're giving in to the Reapers' plan for Shepard, which is to align himself with their line of thinking as a preparation to be a reaper consciousness. 

#3747
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

byne wrote...

One thing that has been bugging me recently is the fact that even in the strict literal interpretation of the endings, Shepard has to be at least somewhat indoctrinated for them to make any sense at all.

TIM does not have the power to take over other peoples' bodies and remotely control them. He only has the ability to control indoctrinated people and Reaper husks.

Unless you think TIM is a bloodbender (I've been watching Avatar recently, so bloodbending came to mind), he doesnt have the ability to control people who arent indoctrinated to some degree.

Before you say 'Maybe he was controlling her through her implants,' remember he was also controlling Anderson, who has no implants.

So even if you dont believe in IT, you kind of have to accept that Shep (as well as Anderson to some degree) was indoctrinated for even the literal endings to make any kind of sense.


Good remark! I forgot but was it mentioned during the vidlogs on Cronos Station that TIM's abilities would be that limited?

#3748
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

byne wrote...

One thing that has been bugging me recently is the fact that even in the strict literal interpretation of the endings, Shepard has to be at least somewhat indoctrinated for them to make any sense at all.

TIM does not have the power to take over other peoples' bodies and remotely control them. He only has the ability to control indoctrinated people and Reaper husks.

Unless you think TIM is a bloodbender (I've been watching Avatar recently, so bloodbending came to mind), he doesnt have the ability to control people who arent indoctrinated to some degree.

Before you say 'Maybe he was controlling her through her implants,' remember he was also controlling Anderson, who has no implants.

So even if you dont believe in IT, you kind of have to accept that Shep (as well as Anderson to some degree) was indoctrinated for even the literal endings to make any kind of sense.


Well, to loosely quote the ACAVYOS video, the "literal" ending is meant to throw us off and think that "we have overcome the evil force of indoctrination" and are now free to defeat the Reapers. By misdirecting us into thinking we've battled and successfully overcome indoctrination, it makes us that much more pliable. It's ingenious, really. 

#3749
draken-heart

draken-heart
  • Members
  • 4 009 messages

byne wrote...

One thing that has been bugging me recently is the fact that even in the strict literal interpretation of the endings, Shepard has to be at least somewhat indoctrinated for them to make any sense at all.

TIM does not have the power to take over other peoples' bodies and remotely control them. He only has the ability to control indoctrinated people and Reaper husks.

Unless you think TIM is a bloodbender (I've been watching Avatar recently, so bloodbending came to mind), he doesnt have the ability to control people who arent indoctrinated to some degree.

Before you say 'Maybe he was controlling her through her implants,' remember he was also controlling Anderson, who has no implants.

So even if you dont believe in IT, you kind of have to accept that Shep (as well as Anderson to some degree) was indoctrinated for even the literal endings to make any kind of sense.


read the post right above yours, it makes some sense at least.

ME1: Shepard is revealed to be remarkably strong-willed. he/she defeated Saren, which ultimately caused the destruction of Sovereign.
ME2: Shepard became a symbol of the best that humanity has to offer so Harbinger abducts humans to give Shepard a more personal reason to fight the collectors (humanity is Shepard's people so it makes sens to abduct Shepard's Species)
ME3: Reapers attack earth the home planet of humanity, and, if you Chose Earthborn Pre-service history, Shepard.

@hellishfiend: did you actually read the theory (note i said theory, because it fits evidence but i have no proof)?

Modifié par draken-heart, 21 mai 2012 - 05:25 .


#3750
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages

HellishFiend wrote...
 I also think that the so called "Dark Energy" ending was an intentional leak intended as a red herring/misdirection to throw off the players so they wouldnt see the real ending coming.


Makes sense to me. People keep saying dark energy was dropped in 3 after being mentioned a few times in 2, but I saw one reference to dark energy and there's probably more I missed/forgot.