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[legaldinho]

3/4 shoorly

[MaximizedAction]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Care to try explaining away all of the other things wrong with that scene?

I tihnk we've already covered them, and you didn't accept the answers. 

Why do all of Shepard's weapons disappear after Harbinger split up the squad? Very conveniently like the second and third dream...

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Care to try explaining away all of the other things wrong with that scene?

I tihnk we've already covered them, and you didn't accept the answers. 

And why do you think that is? You said it yourself, you "work with the information given", and that's exactly what we're doing. What we're seeing is a distinct pattern based on lore and canon that matches the description of an indoctrination hallucination. You're the one not working with all the information by trying to explain away all of the evidence. 

[v0rt3x22]

 Hmm I just went through the Mass Effect Wiki on Indoctrination and found some interesting things:

A signal or energy field surrounds the Reaper, which subtly influences the minds of any organic individual in range. 

- Shepard's proximity to Harbinger at the end.

...
that compels you to do things without knowing why 

The endings (more details below).

 
Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. 

Shepard.

 
Saren's resolve began to falter and he started questioning what he was doing. 

We're all questioning the ending.

When Saren died, the Reaper somehow used the implants to reanimate his corpse and fight Shepard 

Shepard seems to get reanimated when he goes through the teleport beam (although this is highly assumptious.)

But seeing that Shepard somehow survives at the very end - it seems to raise the question if Cerberus implanted him with anything during the operation at the beginning of ME2.

Interesting really - even though some of it is a far stretch when applied to IT.

Modifié par v0rt3x22, 02 juillet 2012 - 07:58 .

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

DJBare wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
No matter the case, I'm quite confident that BW added that "Harby watching the Normandy leave" scene so there wouldnt be any doubt that he knew it was there. Otherwise we'd have people writing it off as it being invisible due to the stealth systems.

Either way, I think what happens there is based on shep's willpower/confidence regarding the outcome of their efforts. Aka EMS. 

Stealth cannot be argued by anyone since those systems do not operate in the visible spectrum, all it does is sinks the ships heat emissions.
"If someone looks out a window they would see us"

We all know that, but that wouldnt stop others from writing it off.  People love to author explanations for BW as to why the scenes can be taken at face value. Meanwhile, our speculations and explanations are based on existing lore. Makes you wonder where they get off saying that we're the ones grasping at straws. 

Yeah I wouldn't use stealth drives as a good reason anymore. That suggests that Harbinger can only see heat signatures of ships. That's obviously not the case as he's hitting soldiers as well.

I do still believe that there are two other possibilities, in which both could be true at the same time.

1) The Reaper IFF that the Normandy has is faking Harbinger out long enough for the Normandy to do it's thing.
2) Harbinger doesn't take a shot or two at the Normandy because it will give an opening to Hammer to advance towards the beam. If you look at the wreckage when Shepard wakes up, you'll see that a Mako and some soldiers made it really close, just a second or two away. Going after the Normandy would have given them just enough time to slip through.

BTW Hellish, I hope we're still good after that last conversation about EC timeframes. I didn't mean to be so aggressive.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

dreamgazer wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So no one sees how Harby is following the Normandy with his eyes?
http://www.youtube.c...Kdfh58UE#t=101s

Yes. I commented on that situation several days ago.

And I think Harbinger---or, more accurately, the catalyst---allowed the Normandy and her crew to go free because destroying them would have driven Shepard towards Reaper extinction (only partly as an act of "vengeance"), whereas allowing them to live makes Shepard think about the world his comrades will live in post-choice.

Harbinger looked at the Normandy.  The ship was in its sights, and it lingered.  On top of that, Shepard and Harbinger looked at one another as well. What some see as a plot hole is actually a plot device in my book, and it'll remain as such until proven otherwise.  I only work with the information I'm given. 

There's intent there, methinks, and it doesn't have to play into indoctrination. The variables had been altered.  The catalyst doesn't want an enraged Shepard making this choice; he wants a weakened, demoralized one, but not one who will be ready to pull the trigger when the option is made available. Weak, demoralized, and thinking of one's surviving comrades can be malleable, to a point that will allow the Reapers to survive. 

I strongly doubt it's an illusion. You have to remember that there's another emotional goodbye during that sequence, one that A LOT of people really, really like in several forms.  Do you really think BioWare will nullify that as a "fake" emotional scene?

In my book, the surreal stuff happens upon Harbinger's blast. That was strengthened with the EC. 

The Crucible was still not connected when Harbinger let the Normandy go, the Catalyst had not been altered yet and should by all logic be continuing the cycle as normal meaning letting your greatest enemy and his closest allies live makes no sense.

[paxxton]

dreamgazer wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So no one sees how Harby is following the Normandy with his eyes?
http://www.youtube.c...Kdfh58UE#t=101s

Yes. I commented on that situation several days ago.

And I think Harbinger---or, more accurately, the catalyst---allowed the Normandy and her crew to go free because destroying them would have driven Shepard towards Reaper extinction (only partly as an act of "vengeance"), whereas allowing them to live makes Shepard think about the world his comrades will live in post-choice.

Harbinger looked at the Normandy.  The ship was in its sights, and it lingered.  On top of that, Shepard and Harbinger looked at one another as well. What some see as a plot hole is actually a plot device in my book, and it'll remain as such until proven otherwise.  I only work with the information I'm given. 

There's intent there, methinks, and it doesn't have to play into indoctrination. The variables had been altered.  The catalyst doesn't want an enraged Shepard making this choice; he wants a weakened, demoralized one, but not one who will be ready to pull the trigger when the option is made available. Weak, demoralized, and thinking of one's surviving comrades can be malleable, to a point that will allow the Reapers to survive. 

I strongly doubt it's an illusion. You have to remember that there's another emotional goodbye during that sequence, one that A LOT of people really, really like in several forms.  Do you really think BioWare will nullify that as a "fake" emotional scene?

In my book, the surreal stuff happens upon Harbinger's blast. That was strengthened with the EC. 

Anyway, that farewell scene isn't serious. You don't have such long farewells on the battlefield where every second can meet you dead. That's ridiculous. Harby waits while Shepard stands still and one laser hit would end him. That's why (among other reasons) I think there's something surreal about that scene.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

DJBare wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
No matter the case, I'm quite confident that BW added that "Harby watching the Normandy leave" scene so there wouldnt be any doubt that he knew it was there. Otherwise we'd have people writing it off as it being invisible due to the stealth systems.

Either way, I think what happens there is based on shep's willpower/confidence regarding the outcome of their efforts. Aka EMS. 

Stealth cannot be argued by anyone since those systems do not operate in the visible spectrum, all it does is sinks the ships heat emissions.
"If someone looks out a window they would see us"

We all know that, but that wouldnt stop others from writing it off.  People love to author explanations for BW as to why the scenes can be taken at face value. Meanwhile, our speculations and explanations are based on existing lore. Makes you wonder where they get off saying that we're the ones grasping at straws. 

Yeah I wouldn't use stealth drives as a good reason anymore. That suggests that Harbinger can only see heat signatures of ships. That's obviously not the case as he's hitting soldiers as well.

I do still believe that there are two other possibilities, in which both could be true at the same time.

1) The Reaper IFF that the Normandy has is faking Harbinger out long enough for the Normandy to do it's thing.
2) Harbinger doesn't take a shot or two at the Normandy because it will give an opening to Hammer to advance towards the beam. If you look at the wreckage when Shepard wakes up, you'll see that a Mako and some soldiers made it really close, just a second or two away. Going after the Normandy would have given them just enough time to slip through.

BTW Hellish, I hope we're still good after that last conversation about EC timeframes. I didn't mean to be so aggressive.

Water under the bridge - dont worry about it. You make every attempt to be civil despite the fact that you disagree with most of the things brought up in the topic, and I appreciate that. 

On number 2, that doesnt really hold up, because as has been pointed out before, Harbinger is neither heard nor seen firing a single beam while Shep is having his heartfelt moment with his team. It seems as if everything that Shep is not paying attention to is simply frozen in time, just like a dream. 

[dreamgazer]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

The Crucible was still not connected when Harbinger let the Normandy go, the Catalyst had not been altered yet and should by all logic be continuing the cycle as normal meaning letting your greatest enemy and his closest allies live makes no sense.

Perhaps, but the catalyst knew of its design. 

[insomniak9]

Reaper vs Maw

Don't forget to watch this

[DJBare]

EpyonX3 wrote...
Yeah I wouldn't use stealth drives as a good reason anymore. That suggests that Harbinger can only see heat signatures of ships. That's obviously not the case as he's hitting soldiers as well.

I do still believe that there are two other possibilities, in which both could be true at the same time.

1) The Reaper IFF that the Normandy has is faking Harbinger out long enough for the Normandy to do it's thing.

That means the reaper IFF is also faking Harby's visual perception?

2) Harbinger doesn't take a shot or two at the Normandy because it will give an opening to Hammer to advance towards the beam. If you look at the wreckage when Shepard wakes up, you'll see that a Mako and some soldiers made it really close, just a second or two away. Going after the Normandy would have given them just enough time to slip through.

Harby has more than one laser, for those close to the beam they become packed as the path narrows, Harby could pick them off with a single beam while singing daisy daisy.

[legaldinho]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So no one sees how Harby is following the Normandy with his eyes?
http://www.youtube.c...Kdfh58UE#t=101s

Yes. I commented on that situation several days ago.

And I think Harbinger---or, more accurately, the catalyst---allowed the Normandy and her crew to go free because destroying them would have driven Shepard towards Reaper extinction (only partly as an act of "vengeance"), whereas allowing them to live makes Shepard think about the world his comrades will live in post-choice.

Harbinger looked at the Normandy.  The ship was in its sights, and it lingered.  On top of that, Shepard and Harbinger looked at one another as well. What some see as a plot hole is actually a plot device in my book, and it'll remain as such until proven otherwise.  I only work with the information I'm given. 

There's intent there, methinks, and it doesn't have to play into indoctrination. The variables had been altered.  The catalyst doesn't want an enraged Shepard making this choice; he wants a weakened, demoralized one, but not one who will be ready to pull the trigger when the option is made available. Weak, demoralized, and thinking of one's surviving comrades can be malleable, to a point that will allow the Reapers to survive. 

I strongly doubt it's an illusion. You have to remember that there's another emotional goodbye during that sequence, one that A LOT of people really, really like in several forms.  Do you really think BioWare will nullify that as a "fake" emotional scene?

In my book, the surreal stuff happens upon Harbinger's blast. That was strengthened with the EC. 

The Crucible was still not connected when Harbinger let the Normandy go, the Catalyst had not been altered yet and should by all logic be continuing the cycle as normal meaning letting your greatest enemy and his closest allies live makes no sense.

This is silly, and I have to continue to stop trying to reply to silly points. But there is one KO argument as regards the "Harby let the normandy go because it wants shepard to choose based on feelings other than revenge".

The reason the normandy's there in the first place is harby almost fried your 2 companions. Which in my case was my BFF Garrus and LI Liara.

Please to be ending this chain of argumentation, ta.

[EpyonX3]

paxxton wrote...

zigamortis wrote...

@paxxton
That is true the ship was there very fast and im quite sure entering the atmosphere at that speed would utterly destroy the normandy.

This might fuel the idea that it's all just an illusion.

Unless it was already on Earth per Hackett's order for any available ship to engage the reapers leaving the battle.

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Care to try explaining away all of the other things wrong with that scene?

I tihnk we've already covered them, and you didn't accept the answers. 

And why do you think that is? You said it yourself, you "work with the information given", and that's exactly what we're doing. What we're seeing is a distinct pattern based on lore and canon that matches the description of an indoctrination hallucination. You're the one not working with all the information by trying to explain away all of the evidence. 

You are aware that taking a hostile tone makes others not want to discuss things with you, correct?  I'm a sympathizer, as some of my interpretive components revolve around ideas discussed in this thread, but if that's the tone this thread's going to take then I'll make my way elsewhere.

Start again: what's your "evidence" pointing towards the space between the vehicle crash and Harbinger's blast being a part of the hallucination?

[Xavendithas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Water under the bridge - dont worry about it. You make every attempt to be civil despite the fact that you disagree with most of the things brought up in the topic, and I appreciate that. 

On number 2, that doesnt really hold up, because as has been pointed out before, Harbinger is neither heard nor seen firing a single beam while Shep is having his heartfelt moment with his team. It seems as if everything that Shep is not paying attention to is simply frozen in time, just like a dream. 

Not to mention that up until this moment, we have not heard anything from Harbinger for the entire game. Nothing has changed to alter the assumption that Harbinger still very much wants Shepard alive at this point.

It still seems to me as if Harbinger is paying attention to the Normandy only long enough to confirm that he isn't leaving on board the ship.

[paxxton]

insomniak9 wrote...

Reaper vs Maw

Don't forget to watch this

This is a distinct sound from Harby's as you can hear in the video posted by EpyonX3. Listen for 6-7 seconds to hear both.
http://www.youtube.c...sD17Ovyk#t=290s

Modifié par paxxton, 02 juillet 2012 - 08:11 .

[legaldinho]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Care to try explaining away all of the other things wrong with that scene?

I tihnk we've already covered them, and you didn't accept the answers. 

And why do you think that is? You said it yourself, you "work with the information given", and that's exactly what we're doing. What we're seeing is a distinct pattern based on lore and canon that matches the description of an indoctrination hallucination. You're the one not working with all the information by trying to explain away all of the evidence. 

You are aware that taking a hostile tone makes others not want to discuss things with you, correct?  I'm a sympathizer, as some of my interpretive components revolve around ideas discussed in this thread, but if that's the tone this thread's going to take then I'll make my way elsewhere.

Start again: what's your "evidence" pointing towards the space between the vehicle crash and Harbinger's blast being a part of the hallucination?

You think harby doesn't shoot the normandy because it might anger shepard... when the normandy's there to evac his squadmates... which harby nearly killed...

On that basis, I'm very happy for you to take your views elsewhere, mate.

Modifié par legaldinho, 02 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Care to try explaining away all of the other things wrong with that scene?

I tihnk we've already covered them, and you didn't accept the answers. 

And why do you think that is? You said it yourself, you "work with the information given", and that's exactly what we're doing. What we're seeing is a distinct pattern based on lore and canon that matches the description of an indoctrination hallucination. You're the one not working with all the information by trying to explain away all of the evidence. 

You are aware that taking a hostile tone makes others not want to discuss things with you, correct?  I'm a sympathizer, as some of my interpretive components revolve around ideas discussed in this thread, but if that's the tone this thread's going to take then I'll make my way elsewhere.

Start again: what's your "evidence" pointing towards the space between the vehicle crash and Harbinger's blast being a part of the hallucination?

I apologize if my tone comes off as hostile, because that is never my intention with any of my posts. But how else would I make that point? If you could hear my vocal inflection you'd know I wasnt being rude, but the fact of the matter is that I feel you are not considering all of the information we have on indoctrination when coming up with what you feel is the best explanation for the events that take place during the charge. We are. 

• dream trees and shrubs
• ashley/kaidan corpse piles
• infinite supply of generic alliance troops charging at the beam
• Normandy comes out of nowhere when we already know it had rejoined the sword fleet
• harby doesnt fire at anything while you chat with your teammates
• 3 of the last 4 beams that Harby fires are sound only, and cant be seen
• the last beam harby fires at shep is out of sync with it's beam sound, and you hear a strange tone at first instead

That's not even a complete list, either. 

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...


Water under the bridge - dont worry about it. You make every attempt to be civil despite the fact that you disagree with most of the things brought up in the topic, and I appreciate that. 

On number 2, that doesnt really hold up, because as has been pointed out before, Harbinger is neither heard nor seen firing a single beam while Shep is having his heartfelt moment with his team. It seems as if everything that Shep is not paying attention to is simply frozen in time, just like a dream. 

Cool beans!

Ok I hear at least one maybe two beams go off while Shepard approaches the Normandy with his squad members. When the beams aren't heard, several explosions can be heard. There is still a lot of activity going on behind him.

Also, if what you're saying is correct, then are we to assume that Shepard is already dreaming?

[EpyonX3]

paxxton wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Reaper vs Maw

Don't forget to watch this

This is a distinct sound from Harby's as you can hear in the video posted by EpyonX3. Listen for 6-7 seconds to hear both.
http://www.youtube.c...sD17Ovyk#t=290s

It's the same sound. Just has different speeds with the same pitch.

[Turbo_J]

This is just what the Reapers want; us fighting each other. We need to stand together despite our differences in opinion. Now I suggest you concentrate on who the real enemy is, and they are not in this thread.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Water under the bridge - dont worry about it. You make every attempt to be civil despite the fact that you disagree with most of the things brought up in the topic, and I appreciate that. 

On number 2, that doesnt really hold up, because as has been pointed out before, Harbinger is neither heard nor seen firing a single beam while Shep is having his heartfelt moment with his team. It seems as if everything that Shep is not paying attention to is simply frozen in time, just like a dream. 

Cool beans!

Ok I hear at least one maybe two beams go off while Shepard approaches the Normandy with his squad members. When the beams aren't heard, several explosions can be heard. There is still a lot of activity going on behind him.

Also, if what you're saying is correct, then are we to assume that Shepard is already dreaming?

That is what I believe, yes. There are too many things in the scene that would be "bad/lazy writing" in a literal interpretation, but that are explainable within the confines of the story by using the lore regarding indoctrination. I choose to stay within the confines of the story...

[dreamgazer]

legaldinho wrote...

You think harby doesn't shoot the normandy because it might anger shepard... when the normandy's there to evac his squadmates... which harby nearly killed...

On that basis, I'm very happy for you to take your views elsewhere, mate.

Considering the fact that the catalyst knows of Shepard's importance, and that the catalyst is the collective conscious of the Reapers (including Harbinger), yeah.

At this point, Shepard is the gateway to a potential post-cycle Control or Synthesis universe, where the Reapers remain alive.  Going in with a head full of dead squadmates and a blown-up Normandy that their "leader" knocked out of the sky would pretty much nix that idea. 

[legaldinho]

dreamgazer wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

You think harby doesn't shoot the normandy because it might anger shepard... when the normandy's there to evac his squadmates... which harby nearly killed...

On that basis, I'm very happy for you to take your views elsewhere, mate.

Considering the fact that the catalyst knows of Shepard's importance, and that the catalyst is the collective conscious of the Reapers (including Harbinger), yeah.

At this point, Shepard is the gateway to a potential post-cycle Control or Synthesis universe, where the Reapers remain alive.  Going in with a head full of dead squadmates and a blown-up Normandy that their "leader" knocked out of the sky would pretty much nix that idea. 

10 secs before evac, harby was shooting at Shepard's squadmates, nearly killing them. The idea that he is anger-managing shep is so utterly deluded, I can't even believe I'm having to spell this out. If that's the motivation why kill anyone? Why target the squadmates?

[insomniak9]

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Reaper vs Maw

Don't forget to watch this

This is a distinct sound from Harby's as you can hear in the video posted by EpyonX3. Listen for 6-7 seconds to hear both.
http://www.youtube.c...sD17Ovyk#t=290s

It's the same sound. Just has different speeds with the same pitch.

Harbinger? So we're now to believe that Harbinger got owned by the Maw on Tuchanka?